It's an AOE, so its coefficient automatically gets cut to a third.
Since the addition of AOE damage caps (turn head, spit on floor), most AOE coefficients are cut in half rather than 1/3. I would expect it to scale at 1.5 / 3.5 / 2, adjusted with the DD/DOT split that Immolate uses as described on wowwiki. That would be something like:
That's assuming it works with a standard formula, though, and that may not be at all a reasonable assumption. A lot of rules are being broken on this sort of thing lately. SoC is a current example; Arcane Barrage is apparently a WotLK example. It could be a lot better than what that formula produces.
The more I look at the talent trees the more that this makes sense:
Put the Corruption refreshing portion of Everlasting Affliction in Destruction. Tack it on to another talent or something. Why? This makes it so Improved Corruption isn't as vital for Destruction. Cast it once and Corruption stays up. Not to mention the obvious synergy for having Corruption up with Molten Core. Affliction really doesn't need a self refreshing Corruption anyhow. Deep Aff is sure to have Instant Corruption and with a harder hitting Corruption not mind nearly as much having to use up a GCD to cast it.
Then tack something on to Everlasting Affliction (which will obviously now need a name change =P) that does a little something for Shadowbolt. Maybe...Increase Shadowbolt damage by X% per Affliction debuff on the mob- just like Soul Siphon. Whatever.
It would do a good job of removing some unnecessary talents and just make a lot more sense in general.
It really feels at the moment like Blizz just don't have a good handle on what they want affliction to be.
I look at the destro tree, and I feel like I can fathom what the designers are trying to do with it. Same for demo. Now I don't necessarily think they work as they are, but I think they give a good glimpse into where they're going. The aff talents though look like they're just throwing ideas up in a desperate attempt to find something that works.
That's not a bad idea, treating it as a buff to a destruction spell that encourages the use of more class-defining abilities. Migrating it to destruction would preferably replace Drain Life with Incinerate. Just making it more accessible to destruction in general would be a good thing because a shadowbolt talent so deep in affliction is generally misplaced. I think I would rather that Corruption becomes instant base, and the refresh talent take the place of Improved Corruption, just because it gives almost the same benefit while helping break DS's stranglehold. The main drawback of that being that an affliction leveling build doesn't have a good first-tier talent.
Put the Corruption refreshing portion of Everlasting Affliction in Destruction. Tack it on to another talent or something. Why? This makes it so Improved Corruption isn't as vital for Destruction. Cast it once and Corruption stays up. Not to mention the obvious synergy for having Corruption up with Molten Core. Affliction really doesn't need a self refreshing Corruption anyhow. Deep Aff is sure to have Instant Corruption and with a harder hitting Corruption not mind nearly as much having to use up a GCD to cast it.
Wow, that's a fantastic idea.
Assuming no DS, even if incin is a bit better, shadowbolt would still be a better cast than spending the time on corruption. You get comparable damage to incin, refresh corruption, and gain a chance to proc molten core. Now on a boss fight you'll be putting up corruption & immolate, spamming incin, switching to shadowbolt near the end of corruption to refresh it and keeping immo up with your incins, presumably weaving in Chaos Bolts when the cooldown is up. Additionally, this rewards good timing on switching casts, as the later you get the shadowbolt in, the more refreshes you get per cast of it, but if you leave it too long, you now have to put corruption back up.
Latas: Apparently yes. But I wonder why didn't include Nature there for some basic completeness.
Because Shaman currently provide the Nature damage increasing debuff. Stormstrike is getting 2 more charges in WOTLK, while Balance Druids are also getting Nature's Fury as a 50 point talent, which adds another 6% Nature damage.
If I had to guess, I'd say Blizzard (and the Consolidating Raid Utility crowd) has no problems with keeping Nature debuffs separate from everything else, since it's a whole different class altogether. The problem came from three key spells (Curse of the Elements, Curse of Shadows and Curse of Recklessness) coming from the same class, making it near mandatory to stack 3 Warlocks. 2 Warlocks and 1 Enhancement Shaman isn't as bad.
EDIT: Corrected stacking numbers to reflect Curse of Recklessness. Thanks Zerdell.
On the topic of Warlock stackability, I noticed that the Improved Curse of Weakness talent has had its tooltip clarified to reflect increasing the attack power reduction only. Insert sigh of relief here, because rank 9's attack speed reduction would have made CoW another must-have talent if it was affected by the talent, making it better than Thunder Clap.
The reason CoW is changed probably has more to do with 10 man design flexibility. Thunderclap and Thunderfury were one of the few debuffs that worked on some raid bosses. Being as there are 4 possible tanking classses, and only one has an attack speed debuff, the ability had to be spread around. This means I expect to see hard hitting bosses in the later 10-mans were warlocks will be needed to put up CoW if a warrior isn't brought along. Matter of fact, it's a lot easier for a warlock to put up a 2 minute curse than to have a warrior monitor a short debuff time.
correction: Druids have an attack speed debuff that goes to 50% in WotLK. This really throws a monkey wrench into things. If it debuffed bosses that much, it would make them trivial. We'll have to wait and see if it caps out at 20% max or they decided to no longer allow attack speed modifiers on raid bosses.
The reason CoW is changed probably has more to do with 10 man design flexibility. Thunderclap and Thunderfury were one of the few debuffs that consistently worked on raid bosses. Being as there are 4 possible tanking classses, and only one has an attack speed debuff, the ability had to be spread around. This means I expect to see hard hitting bosses in the later 10-mans were warlocks will be needed to put up CoW if a warrior isn't brought along. Matter of fact, it's a lot easier for a warlock to put up a 2 minute curse than to have a warrior monitor a short debuff time.
Warriors, Druids, Death Knights, and presumably Paladins will all have attack speed debuffs on WotLK. Warriors still have Thunder Clap (10% untalented, 20% talented), Druids will have Infected Wounds (10% stacking 5?? times), Death Knights have Icy Touch (15% slow, affects casting), and nothing has been seen about Paladins yet. I recall reading some time ago about a 'Seal of Protection' which, when judged, would provide a similar attack speed debuff that was refreshed on holy damage.
OK, I missed that, my error.
It is still listed as a warlock spell on the WotLK Wiki site and I dont read warlock threads as extensively as I read Shaman threads.
Until the beta opens, or we get first hand evidence, we can only assume that which makes "sense". In the case of cripple, there is just as much logic for having cripple on DRs with Fear as there is of Frost nova having DRs with Counterspell, i.e. there is little to no "sense" is such assumptions.
The logic in DR sharing between Fear and Cripple is the same as in DR sharing between Fear and Seduction. Chaining those abilities can permanently disable enemy, or very seriously impair it.
Originally Posted by Lhivera
Since the addition of AOE damage caps (turn head, spit on floor), most AOE coefficients are cut in half rather than 1/3. I would expect it to scale at 1.5 / 3.5 / 2, adjusted with the DD/DOT split that Immolate uses as described on wowwiki. That would be something like:
That's assuming it works with a standard formula, though, and that may not be at all a reasonable assumption. A lot of rules are being broken on this sort of thing lately. SoC is a current example; Arcane Barrage is apparently a WotLK example. It could be a lot better than what that formula produces.
WoWWiki formula is incorrect. While DD and DOT may individually be scaled based on standard cast time and duration formula, the split between them follows no patterns, however it's closer to a damage-based split. So the split is closer to 2 to 1 and that gives us following formulas:
DD: (1.5/3.5) * (2/3) / 2 = 0.1429
DOT: (8/15) * (1/3) / 2 = 0.08889
On top of that the fact that they abandon old "increases damage and healing by up to X" in favor of "spell power" suggests that they may finally drop the old strict formulas. If we are lucky client will contain this data and will calculate it for us (as it does for many melee abilities that scale with attack power or weapon damage, but don't state that they deal a percentage of weapon damage)
Originally Posted by Prinsesa
Because Shaman currently provide the Nature damage increasing debuff. Stormstrike is getting 2 more charges in WOTLK, while Balance Druids are also getting Nature's Fury as a 50 point talent, which adds another 6% Nature damage.
2 Warlocks and 1 Enhancement Shaman isn't as bad.
I would compare Druid talent to Improved Scorch, Shadow Weaving and Winter's Chill. Stormstrike is a kind of Improved Shadow Bolt since it's charged, though maybe it can also be treated as equivalent to IS/SW/WC. So CoE could in fact use Nature for completeness. Expected number of spots per class is 2.5, COR is undesireable in some fights (and there is armor penetration now). Those strong spec-limited buffs are going to mess up setups and spec viabilities.
As for Curse of Impotence: it has 15 second duration, it could be 10-man anti-Enrage option if Hunter isn't available.
Hasn't Curse of Impotence has been debarred as most likely being a mob spell?
Comparing Nature's Fury to I-Sc, SW, and WC, I don't get why. Firstly I-Sc is a spell applied by Scorch, and Scorch is a DPS downgrade. Even worse, with Burnout it's a god-damned liability, where it's critting will cost 1% mana (just like a Fireball crit will) but it's benefit will be far closer to 40% that of a Fireball. Comparing NF to SW and WC, however, is accurate in terms of mechanics.
How the comparison is at all relevant to whether nature should gain debuff from the new CoE, I don't get. I also don't understand what you mean by "those strong spec limited buffs are going to mess up setups and spec viability". The only change that has gone through is a clear viability improvement. Perhaps I'm not getting the bigger picture.
As has been noted in the Druid WotLK thread, not giving nature CoE buffing is a benefit . It means their ultimate raid dps output will be ballanced without it. Just like Elemental Shamans are perfectly fine and competitive as it stands now, without Curse amplification, at this junction in time when the actual RDPS output is being weighed and evaluated, making it gain from CoE will only mean one thing: That without CoE they'll be held back. Just like we are now. Don't view Nature-CoE as a 10% increase for Nature casters, view it as a buff they don't need to compete.
I do not recall any scenario where CoR is "undesirable". In fact, I don't recall any scenario ever where CoR will not be up, compared to for example, any other curse. Perhaps the only exception I can think of is Curator, where a properly timed CoD will make a superior choice, but that's more a convenient gimmick than anything else. I may, however, be missing something fundamental.
COR is undesireable in some fights (and there is armor penetration now)
Unless a character has enough passive armor penetration to reduce a boss to 0 without CoR the existance of passive armor penetration makes CoR more desierable, not less. Currently in end game raiding capping out on passive armor penetration is impossible without the aid of raid buffs including CoR and proc based armor ignore from executioner and warp spring coil (among others). Fully talented TC will negate the AP bonus from CoR which will make it useful in practically all 25 man raids and most 10 man raids. Expect CoR to be a raid DPS essential curse in your first 25 man at level 80.
Edit - Should say 'fully talented DS' instead of TC. Got my warrior debuffs mixed up.
Last edited by tetracycloide : 06/18/08 at 4:57 PM.
COR is the best rdps curse and has been for a long time. You rarely ever not use it. Unless you would run some absurd caster stacked raid, but otherwise its really hard to beat, pretty much irregardless of context.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Hasn't Curse of Impotence has been debarred as most likely being a mob spell?
Comparing Nature's Fury to I-Sc, SW, and WC, I don't get why. Firstly I-Sc is a spell applied by Scorch, and Scorch is a DPS downgrade. Even worse, with Burnout it's a god-damned liability, where it's critting will cost 1% mana (just like a Fireball crit will) but it's benefit will be far closer to 40% that of a Fireball. Comparing NF to SW and WC, however, is accurate in terms of mechanics.
How the comparison is at all relevant to whether nature should gain debuff from the new CoE, I don't get. I also don't understand what you mean by "those strong spec limited buffs are going to mess up setups and spec viability". The only change that has gone through is a clear viability improvement. Perhaps I'm not getting the bigger picture.
As has been noted in the Druid WotLK thread, not giving nature CoE buffing is a benefit . It means their ultimate raid dps output will be ballanced without it. Just like Elemental Shamans are perfectly fine and competitive as it stands now, without Curse amplification, at this junction in time when the actual RDPS output is being weighed and evaluated, making it gain from CoE will only mean one thing: That without CoE they'll be held back. Just like we are now. Don't view Nature-CoE as a 10% increase for Nature casters, view it as a buff they don't need to compete.
I do not recall any scenario where CoR is "undesirable". In fact, I don't recall any scenario ever where CoR will not be up, compared to for example, any other curse. Perhaps the only exception I can think of is Curator, where a properly timed CoD will make a superior choice, but that's more a convenient gimmick than anything else. I may, however, be missing something fundamental.
Comparision is mostly about one class/spec bringing in talent-based debuff that other class/spec has to rely on. CoE not bringing Nature debuff among other things messes up anything with Nature resistance. Messed up viabilities and setups may come just solely from lack of mentioned talent-based debuff. Shadow Priests may all choose to make it a slack day and all Mages may spec something without I-Sc. What happens to Warlock DPS that way? This is just an example. For CoE the issue is one Warlock, not one specifically-specced Warlock, even though Malediction is getting more powerful. Speaking of Improved Scorch, it may have higher costs associated with it than SW and WC, but it also has higher effect right now.
As for Druids, they surely have their point, in 10-man raid you can't rely on 1 particular class. On physical damage department there are several non-stacking armor reducing effects having different costs associated with it (i.e. it's a finisher for a Rogue, but main threat source for a Warrior). On magic damage department everything stacks so everyone with an extra debuff adds to the total pool.
CoR is undesirable because of the way attack power affects mob DPS. Depending on priorities in fight and quality of your healers (and of course ability of individual members to move out of fire), that boss DPS increase might not be what you want. As for telling how good it is... well... if target's armor is exactly 800 it converts 7.04% reduction into 0% reduction which is 7.58% DPS increase. I would argue if that beats current CoS effects, and it's certainly way lower than new CoE effect. Negating entirely CoR AP bonus may or may not be impossible depending on mob AP.
The AP increase from CoR is smaller than the reduction from DS therefor, in all cases, an improved DS + CoR will result in a DPS decrease.
CoR is superior to CoE, even in its new form, because the gains from armor penetration are multiplicative with other melee damage bonuses, not addative as they are with CoE. The only exception to this multaplicative stacking, which is already superior to the way spell damage buffs stack, is addtional armor penetration and this stacks exponentially with each addtional point being worth more than the last. Lastly CoR buffs physical DPS and with a druid or warrior tank physical DPS is going to drive TPS and a higher threat cap also results in higher DPS.
Last edited by tetracycloide : 06/18/08 at 4:57 PM.
I do not recall any scenario where CoR is "undesirable". In fact, I don't recall any scenario ever where CoR will not be up, compared to for example, any other curse. Perhaps the only exception I can think of is Curator, where a properly timed CoD will make a superior choice, but that's more a convenient gimmick than anything else. I may, however, be missing something fundamental.
I think the one exception is Reliquary of Souls as it has already zero armor (if i remember correctly) but thats just one. Well, the change of CoE is some breakthrough when it comes to building up a raid in wotlk, though it hits guilds/raids with a heavy warlock population quite hard as you loose at least one raidspot (lets say 1 of 2 or 1 of 3).
But this also favors to have one affliction lock in your raid as well, we will see.
The AP increase from CoR is smaller than the reduction from DS therefor, in all cases, an improved DS + CoR will result in a DPS decrease.
CoR is superior to CoE, even in its new form, because the gains from armor penetration are multiplicative with other melee damage bonuses, not addative as they are with CoE. The only exception to this multaplicative stacking, which is already superior to the way spell damage buffs stack, is addtional armor penetration and this stacks exponentially with each addtional point being worth more than the last. Lastly CoR buffs physical DPS and with a druid or warrior tank physical DPS is going to drive TPS and a higher threat cap also results in higher DPS.
DS + COR is DPS increasse over just DS.
Caster bonuses are addittive? They are multiplicative. Nearly all percentage bonuses right now are multiplicative. And again, reduction of Armor from 800 (7.04% reduction) to 0 is highest possible increase live CoR may give which equals 7.58% more physical DPS. No matter how hard you try difference between CoR and no CoR won't be higher at 70. Lastly, CoR has no new rank in WotLK right now.
As for threat it surely can be an option, but only if non-physical DPS has it hard with threat, because threat generation is improved by a lower amount than damage.
CoE - CoS combination is going live in 2.4.3
So Warlock heavy raiding guilds will already have gotten used to the idea of less warlocks by the time wotlk is released.
For now, I don't see the CoS/CoE merger reducing Warlock spots in Sunwell. A 0/21/40 Warlock using CoD is pretty ridiculous DPS, and now it only takes 2 Warlocks to be able to use that.
I'm not sure i like the implication that i would have only been brought for my curses rather than my skill or mana longevity or my survivability in general.
I'm not sure i like the implication that i would have only been brought for my curses rather than my skill or mana longevity or my survivability in general.
Skills has got nothing to do with this. If every single player in your raid has equal skills, you favor the classes that increases best your rdps. Towards that end, yes, there is a serious consideration that will be given towards inviting a bare minimum of 2 warlocks, even if that means inviting an alt (in acceptable gear that is). So yes, there is still no real incentive to bring more than 1 mage, and yes, you still get invited to raids because the dps benefits from your curses cannot be made up otherwise by other classes.
---- edit:
and for what its worth, I'm bringing my alt warlock to KJ tonight over my mage. it is that stupid.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
06/18/08, 12:44 AM
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