Latas

Edited: was beaten to the point.

 

Zed

... for stand-and-nuke Patchwerk fights. Yes I know most encounters are like that, with a bit of strafing involved. Even moreso with the rampant debuff-stacking. But this obsession with sustained single target dps shouldn't be basis for dismissal of talent versatility. If we can't come up with any circumstances in a raid environment where a build isn't worse than the others, then we have a problem. The question is, should we provide feedback with the expectation of boring encounters?

 

mako

Unless "tank and spank" becomes the circumstantial fight, it makes sense to try and maximize damage for the most common types of encounters.

Should blizzard decide that majority of wotlk encounters require running around 90%+, then the fight type evaluation would need to change.

<Bad> Dragonmaw US
www.damnwesuck.com

 

Bibdy

Having the Warlock in Metamorphosis form able to keep up Demonic Pact with his own crits might help a lot.

There's always free cheese in the mouse traps, but the mice there ain't happy.

 

Teroy

Thank you for the clarification I knew there had to be something wrong with my thinking.

On another note how is the FGs mana regen. I know it's to early to tell but with the changes to fel armor resulting in a reduction in life tapping is 1 point in mana feed still going to be enough to keep the FG cleave on auto or will he be going oom on boss fights?

 

Experiment

I haven't seen it pointed out anywhere, but I do want to share an idea that might (even a little) impact the usefulness of Meta vs Ruin. So here it goes...

Can anyone else forsee it being worth it to equip a firestone while in demon form? This would depending on the melee damage output vs the magic shadowbolt spam damage output. I could see having one set of weapons / off hand / wand for normal form, then one set for demon form.


They've stated via blue post that they're reworking the Master Conj talent to be useful, maybe we can look forward to some sort of synergy between the two? (Meta form and Master Conj)

 

Calixtus

Except single-target DPS, due to the design of the warlock, class is the most versatile specc when it comes to DPS, regardless of how "boring" the encounter is. Whether it's because the multi-target situation in which a DoT specc would be awesome is ruined because the mobs are many enough to be AoE'd, or have so little HP the DoTs don't tick enough, or have a lot of HP but has to be tanked separately so they outrange your DoTs, or a need to be burned one by one as fast as possible... A build optimized for single target DPS is, in all of the above mentioned situations, going to perform reasonably well.

Is it going to have maximum performance when compared to, say, an affliction specc in some settings? No. Is it going to be close enough for the single target DPS specc to be an optimized specc, allowing the least degradation for change of circumstances? Yes.

Whether it's a fight like Nefarion, a fight like the Twin Emperors, or a fight like Gruul, the single target DPS specc is going to perform, on an average, quite well even on fights where it isn't the best possible choice. Because due to the same designs that means an affliction warlock still deals 40% of her damage via a Destruction single-target nuke, single-target DPS performs better across a wider array of fights.

 

Burberri

Interesting thought, although I suspect your rogues/warriors are going to tell you to spec affliction/destruction before they let you roll on sword of l33t melee dps.

As for not looking at how metamorphis plays out in solo, 5-man group/instance, etc. I do heroics in my pvp spec with furry warriors tanking and elemental shaman healing. So eventually that part of the game becomes at best trivial at worst irrelevant. And even at that level they fail. It isn't like a metamorphed warlock is going to be tanking the level 77 equivalent of Durn, or any of the son's of Gruul for that matter. Nor is it going to be able off-tank in a 5-man instance. It would need like 500% armor, +25% dodge, and +20% stam for that.

The only two aspects of a talent are: how does it compare in high end pvp? and, how does it compare in high end pve?

 

Bibdy

Agreed. They've already won the casual gamer vote simply the form being what it is - turning in a big ol' demon guy who's looks cool, imposing and has some neat animations and abilities, if only temporarily.

Now they need to appeal to those of us that look at it as a tool and not a toy.

There's always free cheese in the mouse traps, but the mice there ain't happy.

 

PsyBomb

Well, since so many of the other class threads are doing it, I'm going to start compiling Glyph ideas here.

Minor:
Glyph of Fel Flame: Causes your fire effects to be green.
Glyph of the Armors: Increases the duration of your Demon Armor, Deon Skin, and Fel Armor spells by 30 minutes.

Spell-affecting:
Glyph of Immolate: Increases the periodic damage of your Immolate spell by 50%, but reduces the initial damage by 75%
Glyph of Summoning: Reduces the cast time of your demon summons by one second
Glyph of Agony: Causes your Curse of Agony to reverse its ticks, the most powerful striking first.

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

 

Xentik

I'm going to digress from the Meta vs. Ruin talk for a moment to ressurect and flog a dead horse, and after laying out the idea, I'll hopefully be forgiven for doing so.

Soul shards are, as per Blizzard, supposed to enhance our power as warlocks and add a unique flavor, however as we all know (and Blizzard has said) they have to balance around the fact we'll fill our backpacks with them given the chance (and any real benefit from them).

What if, instead of getting a soul shard item from using Drain Soul or Shadowburn, you instead got a 20 min buff called Captured Soul that stacked to say 10? In addition to this ability we get a new spell called Crystallize Soul which is instant cast and produces X Soul Shards where X is the number of charges on the spell. We now have two kinds of souls, and spells will require different kinds of souls (and numbers) depending on their effects.

Starting with the second, the traditional Soul Shards, these will be used for the utility spells we're used to using shards for like Summoning Pets, Summoning Healthstones/Soulwells/Soulstones. When grinding for soul shards we can just run around killing mobs and draining their soul, and when the charges get to 10 (or the desired number of shards), we just hit Crystallize and go about our way.

The first kind, Captured Souls, then becomes the resource for combat abilites. Here's some ideas for what could be done with it:

• Soulburn: Does X base fire damage + y * the number of charges on your Captured Souls buff.
• Enslave Demon: Places a demon under your control while you have captured souls available. Consumes one upon cast, and one every minute there after. If you run out of souls while the demon is still alive, you suffer X damage and the demon immediately turns on you.
  
• Summon Doomguard: Summon a Doomguard as your pet, requires 6 captured souls and consumes 1 per minute there after. If you run out of souls while the Doomguard is active, he takes a portion of your soul as payment and returns to his realm (deals 50% of your health in unresistable damage and poofs).
• Soul Frenzy: (Talent, Passive) Captured Souls gives you 1% haste per charge while active.
• Core Felcloth Bag: Stores up to 28 Soul Shards and increases the duration of your Captured Souls buff by 50%.

I think a system like this would truly capture the essence of what it means to be a warlock. We should manipulate and use souls to our advantage, not just use them the same as we would store-bought reagents.

 

Nehrak

I had a similar concept in mind for our "Soul" system, which was basically the result of splicing Rage and Runic Power. Basically, we'd use Drain Soul on an NPC and it would do damage and up the "Soul Energy" (for lack of a better name) towards some maximum number. Our spells would use mana (and some, like pets and Soul Fire) would use "Soul" as well. So in other words, we'd be a class that had two resources as before, but basically had a third bar or whatever, and spells that periodically consume Soul, such as pet buffs, and Soul Fire could be a 'Execute' type spell that drains all your Soul for damage.) So we're basically suggesting a similar thing, just in a different way.

But anyway, on the subject of Shards in general, I will agree that the class team has basically all but obsoleted the system yet at the same time has done nothing about it; it's more of a legacy than anything else. The system could use a revamp, but I won't exactly shoot for removal. Just a change is all it needs, to something more meaningful rather than porting arounda bag explicitly used for on average 3-4 spells (pets, Soulshatter, Shadowburn, Ritual of Souls, sometimes Spellstone).

 

Rebellion

This might make it less of no-go talent, though it would still not fix its viability in a raid enviroment.

I'm not sure If anyone had this idea before me, though I'd like to share it because I think this would fit the theme of the demonology tree alot better than it does in its current state. I think a solution to make Meta viable in both PvE and PvP could be to make it a spell that can be cast on either you or your pet. If it's cast on you, it will have the "Oh! sh*t!"-button effect it has now and would most likly serve as a PvP gimmik. If instead it's cast on your pet, your pet evolves, you remain the same and it will serve as the promised dps-timer. As for the evolving part, there are alot of demons that resemble upgrades to our current pets, just think about these armored voidwalkers for example. It shouldn't be that hard to come up with some bad a** looking demons. You just smash your Meta-button and your Pet turns into something stronger. I think this would solve the issues for both PvP and PvE playes. As for the lore it just shows that warlocks who specialize into demon summoning are able to get "stronger" pets, something people ask for years now. What do you guys think ?

As for the other changes, im quite happy with them. Every warlock specc somehow seems to have its place in a raid enviroment. While destruction might look like the biggest ego dps, both affliction and demonology bring something meaningful for your raidsupport. The "new" Chaosbolt might as well serve as some group utility (hopefully) in the future and the fear of fire being useless because of every mage being frost specc is kind of solved with the new imp. Scorch.

 

PyroTEK85

I like your idea Rebellion. I was disappointed when I first saw Meta, I had wanted a Bestial Wrath-ish ability, with a damage boost like the old Black Book trinket. Your idea would give us flexibility though, its good.

 

Lurker37

Xentik - with your proposed system warlocks become weaker when the raid is learning a new boss, as they would be without the captured souls buff from the first wipe up until the trash respawns. Raid leaders would have to consider not taking warlocks to anything except farm content.

 

Drundia

We are having nerfed Shadow, and buffed Fire. All Destruction Warlock Shadow support is pretty much in Shadow Bolt, and quite many things become Fire-dependant. Destruction won't do enough DPS in Fire immune situations, and on top of that won't provide utility comparable to Affliction or Demonology. Also, such Shadow spec will look like this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft which is very different from an expected Fire spec.

As for my ISB, it's rather incomplete, but in reality I want to get rid of it as a 100% needed talent for everyone, so it should be maintainable by one Warlock.

Also, I suggest shifting around Aftermath, Intensity, and Destructive Reach (Aftermath goes to Intensity place and becomes prereq for Pyroclasm, Intensity becomes free T4 talent, and Destructive Reach becomes free T2 talent), and moving Incinerate cast time reduction from Emberstorm to Bane. First of all this unlocks Demonology school choice, since without Emberstorm or Shadow Mastery they will be pretty equal. Also, number of needed points in Destruction goes down to 7, because with only 150% baseline crits Devastation is pretty crappy.

 

Ulthwithian

Glyph Suggestion:

Glyph of the Void: Your VW spell no longer requires a Soul Shard.

 

Nehrak

On the subject of Shadow in Destruction, I do wonder why they're backing up a lot towards Fire. It makes me wonder if they're considering just changing our skillset to Shadow, Fire, Demonology? I doubt even Blizzard would go that heavy, though.

While I agree with the moving of Incinerate's casting time reduction to Bane (why not, after all?), I don't get your reasoning behind Aftermath. Wouldn't that just sit Aftermath (and of course, Pyroclasm) on the bench, probably neither of them seeing much investment? I won't say no one will buy into Aftermath for PVP since apparently the 2/4% is an error and it's still supposed to be 5/10%, but it certainly doesn't encourage anyone to buy into it: Tiers 1, 2 and all but Demonic Power in 3 would be maxed out. That seems counterproductive to a well designed tree, but that could just be me.

 

SageoftheTimes

Voidwalker? How about Succubi, Felguards, and Felhunters? I can understand that the VW might be alright for anti-melee in WotLK, but Felguards have points in all demo situations, Felhunters are still great for anti-caster, and Succubi are going to be a lot more necessary for humanoid CC, due to Curse of Recklessness no longer stopping fear when it's on a mob.

As for new glyphs, what about one that makes various affliction talents (supression, fel concentration, grim reach) effect Shadow Bolt?

 

dexia

Succubus seduce really should be extended longer. Pre-arena it would have been too powerful, but with a max of 10 seconds is there really any balancing reason to keep it at 12 seconds? We can't control feared PvE mobs anymore. Not that we can seduce undead...or dragons (nexus) in WotLK anyway. I think the dev's realized this when they gave us cripple in first pass, they called it an optional form of CC for locks. Looks like we are stuck with CoEx and kiting as our form of 'CC'.

 

Drundia

Aftermath and Pyroclasm have some similarity in what they do and they both are PVP-oriented. I think Aftermath is fairly weak in its current state still, but having it as a prereq for Pyroclasm, it gives ability to balance this chain around being 4-point, while right now Aftermath should be worth its 2 points, and Pyroclasm should be worth its 2 points, while Intensity is pretty nice as it is.

As for a well designed tree, I think a tree is well designed when you have plenty of talents if it's your main tree, but barely find anything useful if it's your off tree. I agree that I missed my Cataclysm point, where it should become pure PVP talent (yes, another one), while Suppression would get both chance to hit and threat reduction for all spells (pulled out of their current talents), this (due to 150% baseline crits as well, and with a revision of ISB) makes Bane the only really good talent in Destruction for non-Destruction Warlock, and maybe Destructive Reach as well, making them spec only 5-7 points, instead of current 17. The next massive benefit wouldn't really come to them until Ruin, while Destruction Warlock (both PVP and PVE) will find a handful of useful talents around there.

 

Nehrak

We're really going to have to agree to disagree on the bolded point. Like declaring your major and choosing a minor in college, there's no reason you can't specialize in Destruction while having a bit of benefit to Affliction, as it were. As long as you invest into both, you should get benefit to both. My pets should be awesome in heavy Demonology, but they shouldn't be near 0% boost if I chose to go after a few pet boosts after digging deep into whatever else. Otherwise you're effectively forcing someone into one and only one tree which seems counterproductive to the whole system.

This has been a pet peev of mine for a long time. I'd really appreciate them adding a second or third rank that makes Seduction last 30/45 seconds (earned at, say, levels 48 and 70? Just in time for BRD and Heroics). It's not her interruption I'm worried about, it's babysitting her. Heroic Shattered Halls is my primary argument towards needing an extension on her Seduction. That place is annoying to CC with Seduction. However, it's my opinion that our pet abilities (Voidwalker and Succubus mostly) need some evaluation. Soothing Kiss, Seduction, Suffering and Consume Shadows all feel... off, whether in effect or in potency. With our TPS, Soothing Kiss is effectively obsolete for anything but the -10% attack speed, and in a similar fashion so is Suffering at AE taunting. This is another reason why I'm starting to lean towards us having the "Imp Tree", and so on. It will provide a benefit to the pets that Demonology can't really do by itself. The one problem I can't work out is how to handle the talent point quantity. Too many points and ALL your pets become... powerful. Too few and it's pointless to bother.

 

Drundia

Look at current Destruction tree. Let's say you go Demonology. You pick Improved Shadow Bolt, Bane, Cataclysm, Devastation, Destructive Reach - that is right now is 20 points. 20 points, which aren't optional benefit, but are required, you don't have an option to stop at 5 or 7 without gimping yourself, because Affliction options aren't good enough.

The current poor design is that by going 20 points into Affliction or Demonology you are getting minor benefit, but 20 points in Destruction aren't minor benefit, they are bloody backbone of any PVE spec. The problem is that Ruin is competing against Haunt and Metamorphosis, and it is competing on its own, because 20 points are backbone. If competition was between ~7 points as I suggest and 21, suddenly true Ruin cost would raise from current 1 point to 14, and probably would have some reasonable alternatives.

There are two reasons to discourage investing 11-20 points: one is to allow more talents in main tree, than just to get to its top (i.e. more than 51, something like 57-58), other is to allow 2 off-trees. Yes, 0/50/21 should be valid, but 7/57/7 should be valid too, on the other hand 0/51/20 should be a problem just because Ruin tends to grab last point.

 

Nehrak

@Drundia: So I want to make sure I get this right: You're basically saying all the good stuff should be at the top, and the rest at the bottom?

EDIT - Looks like there's some changes coming up in the next(?) build. I got this from the beta forums (source:

Eternal Flames replaced with Fire and Brimstone: "Increases the damage of your Immolate spell by an amount equal to 5/10/15/20/25% of your spell power, and the critical strike chance of your Conflagrate spell is increased by 5/10/15/20/25% if the Immolate on the target has 5 or fewer seconds remaining."

Chaos Bolt - Pierces immunity again.

EDIT 2 > Demonic Empathy - Triggers off of being critically hit; provides 30% attack and spell haste 33/66/100% of the time for 8 sec. Doesn't work off of critting the target for a damage boost. Boo.

 

Drundia

No, the trees should be balanced against each other, so that when you invest 50 points in one tree you look around, and face a choice of investing points in each of 3 trees, instead of looking at Destruction and seeing that you can put there 21 points and benefit from each and every of them.

I did some calculations, they include all casting time reductions, basic amount of crit (25%), and Improved Immolate and Fire and Brimstone. Highest known WotLK ranks are used. Fire and Brimstone spell power bonus is assumed to be applied to Immolate DOT fully and only. Also early-middle WotLK spell power amounts are assumed (1500 and 2500).

Rotation #1: Immolate + 7*Incinerate. Length: 15.5 sec.
At 1500 spell power deals ~24399 damage (1574.1 DPS), of those 412.5 damage (1.69%) are thanks to FnB
At 2500 spell power deals ~31526 damage (2033.9 DPS), of those 687.5 damage (2.18%) are thanks to FnB

Rotation #2: "Conflagrate as late as possible". Immolate + 7*Incinerate + Conflagrate. First 3 spells are considered to be hasted by 30%. Length: 15.73 sec
At 1500 spell power deals ~26409 damage (1678.9 DPS): this is 6.66% better than Rotation #1.
At 2500 spell power deals ~34045 damage (2164.3 DPS): this is 6.41% better than Rotation #1.
Note negative relative scaling with spell power relative to Rotation #1.

Rotation #3: "Conflagrate as early as 25% crit bonus is available". Immolate + 6*Incinerate + Conflagrate. First 3 spells are considered to be hasted by 30%. Length: 13.73 sec
At 1500 spell power deals ~22972 damage (1673.1 DPS): better than #1, but worse than #2.
At 2500 spell power deals ~29140 damage (2122.4 DPS): better than #1, but worse than #2.

Sad conclusion: Conflagrate, Backdraft, and Fire and Brimstone, together, for their 9 points contribute for less than 9% DPS increase.

Extra note to self: If talent name or description contains word "Conflagrate" it sucks.