Looks like it they are aiming for the pre-BC model of only enough locks for debuffs and mages for everything else. With DK's Ebon plague taking the same place as Male+CoE, that may leave only one lock spot for Frailty+Demonic Pact.
Actually it looks like they're trying to make Destruction comparable to Mage DPS, and the other two specs provide group utility to make up for slightly lower damage. You have to remember that Mages themselves now provide good group utility in all of their specs, so Mages will have the same up and down within their own specs.
I think we can stop worrying about viability in Wrath.
The key in the quoted phrase should be "with no pet out". Currently we outscale any caster by killing our pet for 15% extra damage. Their new goal seems to be to give the warlock by itself "very close to Mage DPS". That means with Felhunter, Felguard or Imp we should be equal or even better, probably depending on the encounter, RNG or gear.
If that is really what he wanted to say, that is fine by me. I could care less where exactly the damage is coming from, me or my pet. If we can do desirable DPS in a raid and offer decent utility we are able to fill our 2.5 spots just fine
Looks like it they are aiming for the pre-BC model of only enough locks for debuffs and mages for everything else. With DK's Ebon plague taking the same place as Male+CoE, that may leave only one lock spot for Frailty+Demonic Pact.
There's too many question marks to make this kind of assumption. Even knowing that ebon plaque and male+CoE has the same raid wide effects there's still an issue of which class is giving up more DPS to provide their debuff. Furthermore this opens up more possibilities for locks as an affliction lock would still be very useful for bleeding edge encounters for shadow embrace alone. This would also eliminate the need for a non-affliction lock to pick up frailty since the affliction lock wouldn't necessarily have to be providing maldicted CoEs. Overlapping utility is not necessarily bad, it could just as easily be a blessing in disguise.
There's too many question marks to make this kind of assumption. Even knowing that ebon plaque and male+CoE has the same raid wide effects there's still an issue of which class is giving up more DPS to provide their debuff. Furthermore this opens up more possibilities for locks as an affliction lock would still be very useful for bleeding edge encounters for shadow embrace alone. This would also eliminate the need for a non-affliction lock to pick up frailty since the affliction lock wouldn't necessarily have to be providing maldicted CoEs. Overlapping utility is not necessarily bad, it could just as easily be a blessing in disguise.
Is there anything planed to give another class the scorch debuff beside mages? With it affecting arcane, frost and fire it seams to be quite important and could force mages to spec for that. In addition it would be nice to have it in 10 mans where the single mage might not be fire.
It would be nice if the imp could apply the scorch debuff and the felhunter shadow weaving but it might be a bit to much to give that the same class which already has CoE.
Is there anything planed to give another class the scorch debuff beside mages? With it affecting arcane, frost and fire it seams to be quite important and could force mages to spec for that. In addition it would be nice to have it in 10 mans where the single mage might not be fire.
It would be nice if the imp could apply the scorch debuff and the felhunter shadow weaving but it might be a bit to much to give that the same class which already has CoE.
This is why the overlapping buffs is a problem. Those few remaining "unique" buffs will guarantee those classes raid spots for the unique buff (scorch, misery, etc). The ones that overlap will create a fight between classes. After you have the one overlapping buff, then it is just "who does the most DPS or provides something unique?"
Looks like it they are aiming for the pre-BC model of only enough locks for debuffs and mages for everything else. With DK's Ebon plague taking the same place as Male+CoE, that may leave only one lock spot for Frailty+Demonic Pact.
Ebon Plague is the similar as CoE, however Unholy does less damage than Blood in a raid. While Malediction Warlock also does less damage than Destruction, so both classes have to make a trade off for the raid buff.
Malediction Warlocks have some added utility with the Felhunter's buff, so there is room for at least 2 Warlocks. I guess it depends on what you have available, since some classes have similar utility.
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Is there anything planed to give another class the scorch debuff beside mages? With it affecting arcane, frost and fire it seams to be quite important and could force mages to spec for that. In addition it would be nice to have it in 10 mans where the single mage might not be fire.
The Winter's Chill debuff is comparable, or even better, depending on the circumstance. Improved Scorch is better for Arcane damage, they're both pretty equal for Frost damage, and ironically, Winter's Chill is better for Fire mages. Winter's Chill is also better if you've got a Boomkin, for the faster haste procs.
Important thing to remember here is that we're no longer in a situation where every class should expect 5 raid slots, and utility classes get stuck with 1 or 2 while stronger classes get 7 or 8. No class can really expect more than 2 slots in modern raiding, and they should be competing for the third slot that half the classes can get. So if your utility alone guarantees you two slots, that's not the horrible situation that it was pre-TBC.
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Ebon Plague is the similar as CoE, however Unholy does less damage than Blood in a raid. While Malediction Warlock also does less damage than Destruction, so both classes have to make a trade off for the raid buff.
Malediction Warlocks have some added utility with the Felhunter's buff, so there is room for at least 2 Warlocks. I guess it depends on what you have available, since some classes have similar utility.
Until they go through and do testing (which they haven't) and changed which debuffs stack and which buffs stack, it's impossible to make any judgements.
What if Fel int doesn't stack with arcane int or Divine Spirit? CoE not stacking with ebon plague has already been mentioned, but an unholy DK brings something to the raid a warlock doesn't...another offtank. Do they plan to let 10% to frost from imp scorch stack with Coe/Ebon plague? What if they tone down Demonic Pact? Speaking of crazyland, Frost could potentially have higher damage modifiers than fire with 'frozen' bosses, scorch, misery and CoE. Frost has a sac'd felhunter buff for the WHOLE raid for potentially 60 seconds out of every 146 seconds. Frost brings crazy utility now--something a lot of mages DON'T want because it means frost DPS would need to be nerfed substantially in order to maintain balance.
Although I'm concerned about warlock positioning, I would be most concerned if I was a Shadow Priest. Their DPS has worse scaling, and VT isn't the only game in town anymore because JoW buffs, survival hunters, and now water elementals. They do bring some powerful debuffs, but will they remain unique/stackable? Many changes will be made when Beta is open to level 80 and raid feedback/testing can begin.
Originally Posted by Lhivera
The Winter's Chill debuff is comparable, or even better, depending on the circumstance. Improved Scorch is better for Arcane damage, they're both pretty equal for Frost damage, and ironically, Winter's Chill is better for Fire mages. Winter's Chill is also better if you've got a Boomkin, for the faster haste procs.
Important thing to remember here is that we're no longer in a situation where every class should expect 5 raid slots, and utility classes get stuck with 1 or 2 while stronger classes get 7 or 8. No class can really expect more than 2 slots in modern raiding, and they should be competing for the third slot that half the classes can get. So if your utility alone guarantees you two slots, that's not the horrible situation that it was pre-TBC.
Another thing that should be pointed out--if you put 2 of every class in a raid, that's 20.
That's 12 right there of pure DPS/tanks, no healers.
2 druids
2 shamans
2 priests
2 paladins
That's 8 potential healers, but I bet 5/6 of those can easily be tanks/dps.
That 20 people, only 3 healers. The last 4-5 spots will be healing in any raid.
Unless you are a healing class, there is absolutely no reason to expect more than 3 of your class in any raid. If Blizzard does it right, there is no reason to have to bring 3 of any of the DPS classes in the first list, but bringing 2 is ideal. So yes, that means a lot of the buffs locks/hunters/DKs/mages/balance druids/elemental shaman/ret pally/feral druid and rogues (I know I know) need to be overlapped--otherwise you get in a situation where 3 of one DPS class is essential, and that leave one class with one lonely spot. My personal feeling is that Destruction may be fun to play, but it might be the most expendable to a raid, so I wouldn't get my hopes up. Having 2 go-to specs could be fun if they implement it, then you can switch to destro if the unholy DK signs on, or go back to affliction if he is out of town.
I don't see why Fel Int wouldn't stack with other buffs. Its a % increase and an aura, not a flat value with a timer. That's why scrolls don't stack with Arcane Int, Divine Spirit etc. Fel Int is a totally different effect.
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The Winter's Chill debuff is comparable, or even better, depending on the circumstance. Improved Scorch is better for Arcane damage, they're both pretty equal for Frost damage, and ironically, Winter's Chill is better for Fire mages. Winter's Chill is also better if you've got a Boomkin, for the faster haste procs.
I also think I'd rather have Winter's Chill than Imp Scorch if I had to choose, considering Empowered Imp. I haven't done math to prove it, but I'm confident that crit buffs to the imp are even more effective than crit on the warlock.
I think the goal is added flexibility. Imagine a situation where if you have one of every class in a raid, you have every major buff covered. Then, as long as you fill the needed tanks/healers roles, you can literally bring anyone you want for 15 slots, possibly picking up additional (but non-essential) group utility from some specs. Perhaps you'd see diminishing returns more severely over 3 or 4 of a class, but it would be truly great to see the top guilds running group makeups that had 50% or more variance between them, and finally allowed them to have people get spots based solely on personal talent, playing the spec and class of their choosing. I know a lot of people point to 2 of each class + 5 as ideal, but I think one of each class + 15 would be much better. Plus it removes the issue of classes with healing specs taking too many slots.
Granted, you can basically play that way now, but imagine if you could play that way and not be worried about being gimped as a result. There's going to be ideals, it's just not possible to have a game to exist without them. But if guilds don't get hamstrung (especially in 10 mans) by not being able to staff certain classes (like shaman), the game will be much better off for it. As such, I think all signs are pointing towards a ton of buffs that currently stack, or we would expect to stack, to stop stacking, and no doubt a massive amount of impending "zomg my raid slot is gone QQ" to follow. But I do think that if it is done properly, the game will be far better off for it.
Were that to happen, as long as we have utility to offer, with a non-utility spec that also has competitive dps, our slots will be based on the skill and quality of us as players, not just on baseline requirements.
The key statement as someone previously pointed out is that "locks should never beat mages without a pet out". With the new empowered imp and other imp buffing talents, there is no way that A lock specced 0/26/45 or 0/13/58 is going to lose to a mage. With 3/3 points in empowered imp as I said in earlier posts that is like atleast 20% crit. Even more raid buffed. Lock and mage dps might be equal when a lock doesnt have a pet out, but if they have an imp out and are specced into the imp buffing talents like in the two builds I suggested, locks should be able to beat a mage in raw dps hands down
The key statement as someone previously pointed out is that "locks should never beat mages without a pet out". With the new empowered imp and other imp buffing talents, there is no way that A lock specced 0/26/45 or 0/13/58 is going to lose to a mage. With 3/3 points in empowered imp as I said in earlier posts that is like atleast 20% crit. Even more raid buffed. Lock and mage dps might be equal when a lock doesnt have a pet out, but if they have an imp out and are specced into the imp buffing talents like in the two builds I suggested, locks should be able to beat a mage in raw dps hands down
I don't interpret Blizzard's statement that way. The whole quote from Koraa is this:
Warlocks should never be able to out DPS a Mage with no pet out. Alike a Hunter, their pet should factor into their total damage output. Warlocks that sacrifice pretty much all utility talents should come very close to Mage DPS, but those who invest in group/raid utility should be lower.
Destruction is the spec that gives up most utility talents (they still give a stamina buff and a curse), so we know Demonology and Affliction are going to be lower dps. "Very close to Mage DPS" is not beating mage raw dps hands down. I think their goal is if Destro can't keep the imp alive, our DPS will be substantially lower than mage dps. 80% avoidance is a lot, but the imp doesn't have much health to start with, and we don't have a fire and forget heal like hunters. We don't even have Fel Synergy in Destro.
Of course, it makes me wonder did Blizzard really believe we were supposed to be using our pets in Vanilla WoW? Non felguard/2 pc T5 bonus/Voidstar Talisman locks? As a joke I used the Imp to DPS in Karazhan, and even he died like 30-40 times.
I don't interpret Blizzard's statement that way. The whole quote from Koraa is this:
Destruction is the spec that gives up most utility talents (they still give a stamina buff and a curse), so we know Demonology and Affliction are going to be lower dps. "Very close to Mage DPS" is not beating mage raw dps hands down. I think their goal is if Destro can't keep the imp alive, our DPS will be substantially lower than mage dps.
Of course, it makes me wonder did Blizzard really believe we were supposed to be using our pets in Vanilla WoW? Non felguard/2 pc T5 bonus/Voidstar Talisman locks? As a joke I used the Imp to DPS in Karazhan, and even he died like 30-40 times.
Yeah I agree that is a big if, keeping the imp alive. But if we can, I still stand behind my statement of locks beating mages hands down. I dont think Blizzard realizes how Op empowered imp really is. Locks gaining 20% minimum crit isnt an exaggeration at all. Between that and other raid wide buffs( winters chill mookin aura and totems) Locks could be looking at +60% crit chance. To me, that is pretty much a hands down win over mage dps. The only problem is tanks being able to hold threat over that
Well then you can bet your ass it'll be nerfed. They'll either nerf the chance to get a crit off the Imp back down (it was 20/40/60% chance on the Imp critting to give you a crit, originally), or make it so the Imp doesn't get any of the raid buffs.
There's always free cheese in the mouse traps, but the mice there ain't happy.
Destruction is the spec that gives up most utility talents (they still give a stamina buff and a curse), so we know Demonology and Affliction are going to be lower dps. "Very close to Mage DPS" is not beating mage raw dps hands down. I think their goal is if Destro can't keep the imp alive, our DPS will be substantially lower than mage dps. 80% avoidance is a lot, but the imp doesn't have much health to start with, and we don't have a fire and forget heal like hunters. We don't even have Fel Synergy in Destro.
Yes, that is also my interpretation. If you take this further it also means that the current Imp crit double dipping is very much intended and here to stay. They might fiddle with the actual numbers (which very much depend on which buffs/effects will stack) but it seems reasonably safe that machine gun Imp will stay.
I think such a high crit rate is probably necessary because to outweigh the excellent utility of Demonic Pact and average utility of (Imp.) Felhunter, destruction has to bring a lot of damage to the table. What I would like to avoid is being "just" a walking buff to the raid and speccing into something that only brings utility to the raid. It is still too early to know how this ends up but with the lack of scaling both in demonology and affliction we might have problems later on in the expansion when the second or third tier raiding opens up. It all depends on the damage difference (as bad as affliction vs. desctruction in Sunwell) and how necessary the buffs are - a very delicate balancing act for the developers.
You transform into into a Demon, increasing your armor by 360%, reducing the duration of stun and snare effects on you by 50% and increasing your attack power equal to 75% of your spell power.
I have not even the slightest idea how much dmg that would amount to, with the 1300-1500 spell power SW locks hang around but I'm sure someone will chime in with the results sooner or later. If the results are favorable then meta could well be on it's way to the raiding DPS ability that Blizzard wanted it to be, Demonic Empathy didn't change at all, it's still 6% dmg buff on a crit to the master or pet. Like I said they just forgot to change Metamorphosis and Demonic Empathy descriptions on the official talent calculator.
Fire and Brimstone is implemented, nothing new on Master Conjuror.
Right now, PvE wise, I think Metamorphosis could work only if they gave demon form the ability to apply Demonic Pact on crits.
There was probably always a spell power to AP conversion in there, just now they are spelling it out.
I don't play a melee class, but over 2k AP raid buffed is pretty common for rogues/shamans/warriors/hunters. God knows what the base AP started out as though. Doesn't change the fact the DPS a Meta'd lock would have to put out to make it PvE desirable would make it completely OP in PvP. Meta would have to bring a bloodlust-type buff to the party/raid to be raiding desirable. Save the point, spec for Ruin for now.
Eh, you still need three locks regardless of curses. One for FI with fel hunter, one for demonic pact with fel guard, and one with imp(presumably destro) Curses have nothing to do with anything. I have a feeling empowered imp destro will be the best dps in the game overall though, barring threat issues.
Wow those changes to spell push back are absolutely huge. Also the chaos bolt on their calculator still says NYI(not yet implemented) so we are going to have to wait for the final version of chaos bolt still.
Ps : at level 77 12K pv ( with imp out), my imp has unbuffed > 7500 pv ( well he has his own buff). If you add raid buffs + avoidance, keeping an imp up wont be so hard anymore.
Eh, you still need three locks regardless of curses. One for FI with fel hunter, one for demonic pact with fel guard, and one with imp(presumably destro) Curses have nothing to do with anything. I have a feeling empowered imp destro will be the best dps in the game overall though, barring threat issues.
Whit the abundance of support talents/abilities every class got I don't think FI is so good to warrant a spot for a 3rd Warlock, especially if the fight is unfriendly to us, or Affliction dps sucks (that the dog is the intended pet for). There's a lot of buffs/utility you can pass on and still raid effectively (e. g. Shadow Embrace and Malediction from Warlocks at the moment).
Regarding Empowered Imp - at the start of BC I was doing instances with an Imp that did 800 dps and was pulling aggro from Feral Druids with his MD -threat. Point is, this talent is 1. too powerful 2. way more powerful in a raid environment than in a solo setting so it needs a change, preferably a normalization/maximization of the benefit at around +10-15% crit chance, along with some buff to the Immolate chain. Notice how Emp Imp is a better investment than say Imp Immolate even without the on crit effect
Edit:
the biggest source of pet crit% has been removed in the latest build:
Winter's Chill (Tier 6) is now a 3 point talent and gives your frost spells a 33/66/100% chance to apply the winter's chill effect. The winter's chill effect now increases Arcane, Fire, and Frost spell damage by 2%. Stacks up to 5 times.
ToW also changed, but the crit probably remains (strange wording):
Totem of Wrath (Tier 9) increases the damage done by spells and effects by 6% and increases the chance strike chance of spells and effects by by 3%. (Previously increased hit chance by 3%)
That's 8 potential healers, but I bet 5/6 of those can easily be tanks/dps.
That 20 people, only 3 healers. The last 4-5 spots will be healing in any raid.
I wish I could find the quote again, but there was a blue post about a week back which seemed to indicate they plan raiding for 1 healer of each class, and maybe 1 more. So 4-5 healers total in a 25man.
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08/08/08, 3:54 PM
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