I threw together a few destro builds for fun (PVE of course).

1) mmo-champion calculator link: 11/13/47
SB spam, not incinerate. Felt like seeing what I could come up with since we can't refresh immolate anymore. ISB would benefit a lot from emp. imp, I think.

I went 47 destro by getting the mostly important talents, leaving out anything purely fire. Was hard to avoid Molten Core, although I don't think it would be useful. I grabbed all the imp talents. Went 13 demo for Demonic Aegis (and imp). Not sure if it would be worth it to go more Demo for that 20% imp damage. The rest of the points I was really unsure of, put them in aff for fun mostly. instant corr in case it's worth it, 3% hit to match destro, 15% curse damage, imp. life tap.


2) second build:
mmo-champion calculator link: 0/20/51

Still SB, I just changed the aff talents on a whim. Went into demo for SL/Fel Dom, then Unholy Power (20% imp damage). This lets me throw the last points away into Destro then get Chaos Bolt. Assuming Chaos Bolt is buffed to be good in PVE, this could be a fun spec. For the most part you play shadowmage, spamming shadowbolts, but you get an Imp adding to your crit and DPSing, and you get to throw Chaos Bolt in there too.

There's room for a lot of extra destro talents in there because of the 51 points and no need for fire shit. Like Shadowburn and Shadowfury (I'm sure at least one will be used in gimmick fights in Wrath.)

3) Here's my fire destro (no DoTs):
mmo-champion calculator link: 0/13/58
I hesitate to go 58 destro, but I guess it feels right. There's a nice cutoff after putting 40 something points in, where you can forego the conflag shit and go more demo or something, but I felt like backdraft would probably be better than 20% imp damage.

Again, you get chaos bolt, that's an unknown. I really don't like conflag, and I liked this build MUCH better when we could refresh immo with incinerate, but whatever.

4) Lemme try to make a build after throwing out the conflag stuff.
mmo-champion calculator link: 0/20/51
Hmmm, not sure about this one. I left out conflag. Picked up the standard Demo talents down to Unholy Power. Grabbed Chaos Bolt again assuming it will be useful.

I got 3/5 Fire and Brimstone with my last points simply because it increased immolate damage. I assume you'd be doing a Immolate + Incinerate x whatever with Chaos Bolt thrown in there, so it made sense to buff immolate.

5) mmo-champion calculator link: 11/13/47
The last build, a molten core dot spam + incinerate. You get the basic imp talents, so you'd be using him still. instant corr, 10% + 15% CoA damage, imp life tap from aff. Still get Demonic Aegis in demo, so that's ok, just no 20% imp damage.

Destro is a lot like some of the other builds, gets all the basic fire talents. No room for Fire and Brimstone (25% on immo there), Conflag, or Backdraft. You have 2% less hit with aff spells than destro spells, but I don't see any way to fix that without cutting into Demonic Aegis.

A few of those last builds skipped the casting concentration skill. I like less pushback whenever I can get it, but remember the changes coming in wrath. 1 second max after 2 hits, nothing after that? reductions aren't a chance, but a set duration (equal to the % it was previously I assume). So it's good to have a .3 second pushback max, but I guess you can live without it. We lived with chances for 1 second pushback every hit throughout BC.




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Anyway, those are the basic builds I can see. I reasoned most of them out while I typed. I did read a lot of the previous pages (not nearly all), so yes, I saw a lot of talk about 0/13/58 builds and whatever that other one was (47 destro, 20 something in another tree?). Where I post a build that's been suggested before, it's not that I don't know that, I'm voicing support of that particular spec, and giving my commentary/opinion on it at the same time.


Looking at them all together, I think I honestly might be leaning toward my 0/20/51 shadowbolt build. No worries about molten core, conflag, or even immolate. I like to keep it simple. :P And a bonus 20% imp damage over most builds, in addition to probably having MASSIVE isb uptime with empowered imp. (And I like having the emergency buttons of Shadowburn and Shadowfury.) Depends a lot on what Chaos Bolt comes out to be.

You need 1 warlock in WotLK- demonic pact with an imp out who can cast CoE. Destro brings nothing but dps and affliction probably doesn't justify a spot. More is optionally and will depend on destro dps vs other classes.

Any destruction build based on Shadow Bolt spam is bound to fail. What made it great in TBC (stacking percent modifiers to "crazy land") is gone now. Demonic Sacrifice is 5% less and ISB is also 5% less and has less raid utility now. On the other side you have Incinerate as a 2 second cast and new Winter's Chill with 10% extra crit along with all the fire improving talents in destruction. If you want to throw Shadow Bolts you pretty much have to go affliction or maybe demonology.

Anybody noticed they reduced the mana cost of Incinerate and increased the bonus damage if Immolate is up? So casting Incinerate without Immolate on the target just got even worse. It seems they really want to push the casting rotation using Backdraft.

Winter's Chill is like the scorch debuff now, and scorch Buff and "new" Winter's Chill don't stack :-(

What happens if both are up?

Now your statement makes more sence to me. Didn't read that before.

And, bye bye to 10% crit for the empowered Imp.

You can only benefit from one of those debuffs. So just 10% (if both are stacked 5times)

[Mage] WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion

I was looking at the DK trees this morning. I've pretty much come to the conclusion that dual-weilding Unholy DK's with Necrosis will eat up 75% of ISB charges if it applies. I don't think ISB is going to really help a warlocks personal DPS in the expac if there is an Unholy DK in the raid. There is not supposed to be a 'tanking' tree in the DK setup...so a raid very well could have one of the DK tanks go unholy.

Also, take a look at the new Winter's Chill. Frost mages bring mini-CoE (fire,frost,arcane, but no shadow/nature) to the raid now. If you have an Unholy DK, or frost mage, the only reason to use CoE is unless the boss has resistances. Maybe they plan to re-implement them in the expac, but boss resistances were pretty rare in TBC.


Just wait for them to do DPS testing at 80. I suspect in the end they will have to nurf some mage specs and destro, and buff demo and affliction.

I wish you could find it as well, because that would be awesome. In order to be true, they would have to scale back raid damage immensely--something that progressively climbed in TBC til you got the lunacy of 5 resto shaman/11 healer M'uru kills. Color me pessimistic though, because even though you may start Naxx with 5/6 healers, by the time you get to Arthas I bet we require a lot more. Raid self-healing would have to be greatly buffed, and the potion/healthstone nerf doesn't help. LotP, JoL would have to be buffed to work on spells to help mages who have no self-heal ability. Soul Leech needs to become a HoT, so we can effectively use it in conjuction with Life tap.

We're not really sure about this. MMO-Champion has now reverted to the old crit text, and wowhead is also still showing it as crit, and there's no mention in the beta forums that it has changed. One tester has achieved test results that indicate that it has changed, though. (His tests indicated that WC and CoE stack, and WC and Imp Scorch stack, but WC and Imp Scorch do not stack.)

It seems to me based on the direction that talents and such are going that fire warlocks are getting a big push in WotLK (fire melts ice! ). Seriously though, I see demonic pact in it's current form as required for raiding. That means that one warlock in the raid will have to be 0/50/21 (it doesn't seem viable to not have ruin to able to DPS with this build). The question is this: how survivable is the imp in WotLK? If he able to take an occasional AoE hit, not die, and survive long enough for fel synergy to heal him up, then it seems that he can and should be chain-gunning firebolt. If then your imp is out in a demo build, it is only logical to gear for fire damage (new imp MD buff) and be casting immolate --> incinerate.

Using an imp in an 0/50/21 build would still be far inferior to a Felguard. Between Frenzy, the new WF totem (which applies to pets), Demonic Empowerment, etc... The Felguard has more opportunities per minute to proc Dark Pact, which makes him the ideal pet for the tree.

Demo locks theorhetically will be the elementalist build of the Expac. Even though the imp will give you 5% crit, the Felguard *should* still be better overall DPS. Remember he is going to have windfury, LotP, shouts, auras, etc. If the imp out is better DPS, then the tree is a failure IMO. Per blue, their idea is you would be using shadow bolt and switching to fire when molten core procs. Molten Core is there for Demo locks. There is a huge fallacy in this plan though. 50/21 looks like the logical spec for demo currently, and without IC corruption a demo lock will not cast it, hence no Molten Core proc. What they have planned..doesn't work. Also, while Demonic Pact looks to be great raid buff...Demo locks will be the largest drain on healer resources since they have no mana mitigation talents like dark pact or imp soul leech or passive health leech spells--plus a pet in melee range that needs heals. They can go 21/50 and be pretty sustainable with siphon life, but at a huge cost to DPS (no Bane, no ruin). Of course, that makes the lock completely shadow because of no molten core. The third option is something like 7/50/13 (+1). Demonology has issues besides its 51 pt talent--and I suspect in the end will the be the tree with the most changes between now and live.

You made a lot of good points, I'd like to respond to some.

First off, I was unaware of the WF change to pets (/drool btw on that one), and that makes the FG a better choice of pet for DPact procs. That being said, one question I have is whether the whip the succubus carries counts as a weapon for WF. If it does, it seems to me that the succubus is another idea for pet usage. While a talented LoP is 9 seconds vs. cleave's 6 seconds, she adds the 5% to crit to LoP as well as your shadowbolt crits. Something to think about.

Secondly, I'd like to take a look at the wording of Molten Core:

The wording on this suggests that "Shadow spells" and "damage over time effects (i.e. immolate)" proc this effect. Am I simply reading this wrong, or is the talent work differently in practice than the tooltip says. That aside, it seems that demo locks should be stacking spellpower and then switching between shadow bolt and incinerate, using immolate and CoA (if not on CoE/CoR duty) as the only dots, skipping corruption.

I won't get into whether shadow bolt or incinerate is better, that's something that people who spend time with numbers will figure out more in detail.

I would think that maxing out Improved Demonic Tactics and Demonic Empathy a much better investment if you are going with a ruinless Demo build.

What do you guys think of this build for optimal dps at lvl 80:
Build: 28/43

Keep immolate up, allowing for chance to do 10% extra damage due to molten core, have imp out with impowered imp allows for 100% crit for 8 sec everytime it crits.

The points in demo are so i could get mana feed, I think even in raid atleast 1 point in mana feed will be needed to make sure imp never runs out of mana with wisdom and jow up.

So easy to manage imp, if not a aoe fight; rotation is not very complicated, Inc. spam while keeping immolate up.

oops..Yeah, I forgot about shadow bolt triggering it, I've been focused on incinerate for too long. So Demo would get MC procs.

Possibly. Somebody will have to run the numbers. I've been toying with the idea in my mind of moving Ruin down to where Shadowburn is, and making it only a 50% or 75% bonus. Then putting the remaining missing bonus midway or deeper down the Affliction tree whenever corruption is up on the target for shadow bolt*. Same for Demo, except it would apply to all both schools. Then for deep destro put it only on fire spells (Fire and Brimstone?). Shadowburn would be buffed (now it can't 200% crit), maybe have the soul shard requirement/CD reduced. It would allow each of the specs to put more points in their trees, or pick up some low level talents in others.

*Crit rating and haste rating are very low value for Affliction. Maybe Shadow Bolt for affliction locks should have greater than a 200% coefficient, like you see fire mages have on their fireball with ignite factored in to help make up for that fact. I wouldn't complain if affliction had the hardest hitting nuke..if it required them to have DoTs on the target.



Last I heard immolate's DoT does not proc Molten Core, only shadow dots. This was brought up to blue, and it was stated Molten Core was there for Demonology locks on the wrath boards. Without emberstorm though, the 10% to fire isn't as beneficial as you would think, since a Shadow bolt will scale better with gear. So the talent everybody ooh'd and aah'd about when talents were first leaked...ends up being almost worthless at 80.

WF is no longer a weapon chant it is 16% melee haste(20% talented). Lash of Pain eats ISB charges and is thus unacceptable, even more so when the raid is now going to be 1-2 locks with isb.

Without emberstorm shadowbolt is at the very least equal to a molten core incinerate, if not better. Immolate doesn't proc molten core atm in beta, I assume the wording means Shadow (spells and damage over time effects). For example if it was worded Shadow damage over time and spells you wouldn't think "and spells" meant everything.

It seems to me demo locks are going to be the CoR lock, that casts immolate and shadowbolt only if they are the 0/50/21. If they are more of a 5+x/50+y/10+z spec it would be immolate, corruption, and shadowbolt.

Personally I would rather trees be bloated ie you want to spend more than 50 points in them than have ruin nerfed. Both affliction and demo would not be getting ruin if just 3-5 more good points were added in those trees. Haunt is maybe good enough to not get ruin, and demo is also very close with improved demonic tactics and demonic empathy to not getting ruin.

Learn to read words and phrases please, not what you wish to read...

If the tooltip says "Shadow Spells and Damage Over Time effects" it clearly means SHADOW damage over time effects. The word "and" connects the nouns "Spells" and the "Damage Over Time Effects" and both of these are being defined by the adjective "Shadow".

End of Grammar lesson.

You're not alone in the bloat sentiment, at least in the sense that "all talents are desireable". The problem is that we aren't at that point yet, which is why I'm saying that Ruin is probably going to get singled-out so as to keep Destruction out of "crazy land" as they call it. (And how adding talents like Empowered Imp is pulling us away from there, I'll never know until I can take Statistics. )

We really need to get some testing done as to which buffs and debuffs stack. Some that I can point out:
CoE, imp scorch, winter's chill, earth & moon, ebon plague.
Blessing of Kings, fel intellect, abomination strength, various DK auras.
Focus Mind, Demonic Pact.

As far as raid spots... for every warlock that complains about losing his raid spot to an unholy DK, there's an unholy DK complaining about losing his raid spot to a warlock. If all the doomsayers are simultaneously right, there won't actually be players in raids at all. Maximum synergy is being satisfied at like 10 classes, and just about any not-intentionally-stacked raid can cover every buff with a few respecs and maybe some scrolls. The long and short of it is, raid synergy is not what matters for raid composition any more (or if it is, it won't be by 3.2 or so). Personally, I look forward to being appreciated for my personal skill with my class rather than eight talent points in an off-tree. Why won't every guild stack 15 mages (or best individual class XX)? Because mages aren't 60% of the population, and you'll be better off raiding with a warlock doing 2% less damage than either a retard or undergeared mage doing 10% less, or not raiding at all because you're stubborn.

Now, someone please go out and find how F&B's coefficient change works.

It's a possible interpretation, and currently the correct one, but unfortunately English is not so unambiguous enough to support your sensibilities being offended. There is no apparent difference between (Shadow spells) and (damage over time effects) against Shadow (spells and damage over time effects), since the English conjunction "and" can be applied to link both noun phrases, and nouns in parallel noun phrases sharing an adjective, as well as a host of other uses.

Blizzard won't make a final determination of what stacks and doesn't until the cap is raised to 80 and they start getting feedback on raids. So it's a waiting game. I think we all know (because it was strongly hinted at by a blue post) that ebon plague and CoE will not stack, though he didn't definitively say they were not going to stack. But he left strong hints that many debuffs were going to be combined to not be stackable when they go through and do their "raid tuning" pass.

Possible look at the future of Firestones/Spellstones that was added this last build:

Grand Firestone - Spell - World of Warcraft
Grand Spellstone - Spell - World of Warcraft

They don't look quite finished yet. These linked spells/items are definitely NYI.