I still think they should add deep talents to demo and destro to make Corruption worth using in both specs. It's silly to have only 1 spec for which such a fundamental warlock spell is ever any good.
Its about as silly as requiring that same spec to cast an out of school spell for 50-odd percent of its damage output; and as silly as continuing to gimp that same spec by not allowing it to use the full item budget of your items.
Maybe I'm just unnaturally steamed because of the blue poster saying "haste/crit is good for affliction, they still cast shadowbolt". Shows a complete disconnect; we may as well be trying to have conversations about astrophysics with household pets.
So I did some more testing with Immolate and Fire & Brimstone and got these numbers:
Direct Damage
0 fire damage - 331 with or without F&B
505 fire damage - 432 without, 457 with
764 fire damage - 484 without, 523 with
995 fire damage - 530 without, 580 with
These numbers support Roywyn's idea of it just multiplying the DD coefficient by 1.25. However, the DoT numbers continue to make no sense:
DoT
0 fire damage - 124 ticks without, 129 ticks with
505 fire damage - 190 ticks without, 198 ticks with
764 fire damage - 226 ticks without, 234 ticks with
995 fire damage - 255 ticks without, 265 ticks with
I checked it a couple times because it didn't make sense to me, but yes, the DoT damage went up with Fire & Brimstone even when I had 0 fire damage.
Also, in other news, I tried ISB and in its current state, even though the tooltip says it increases damage from non-periodic sources, it still increases the damage of DoTs. I cast a low rank Corruption and then spammed rank 1 SB until it crit and the Corruption ticks went from 210 to 242, the expected 15% increase.
1) Molten Core does indeed proc off of DoT ticks
2) Is Haunt in the process of being reworked? First off, it doesn't increase DoT damage at all right now (I thought the 0% on the tooltip was just a bug or something but apparently not). Also, it seems to heal you for somewhere from 640-740 regardless of how much damage it deals or how much damage you deal while the debuff is up. I tried it naked and with 1100 damage or so and it was still healing me for amounts in the same range.
I still think they should add deep talents to demo and destro to make Corruption worth using in both specs. It's silly to have only 1 spec for which such a fundamental warlock spell is ever any good.
I'm not so sure it is silly, when you look at other classes. Frost Mages will pretty much never cast Fire spells; Fire Mages will pretty much never cast Frost spells. Obviously there are a few situations where that general rule gets broken, but it seems to me that for many classes, your spec does in fact exclude a number of your base abilities from general use.
Originally Posted by Arnath
2) Is Haunt in the process of being reworked? First off, it doesn't increase DoT damage at all right now (I thought the 0% on the tooltip was just a bug or something but apparently not). Also, it seems to heal you for somewhere from 640-740 regardless of how much damage it deals or how much damage you deal while the debuff is up. I tried it naked and with 1100 damage or so and it was still healing me for amounts in the same range.
Recent blue post said that a hot patch to the beta had broken Haunt, and that it should be fixed soon.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
So I did some more testing with Immolate and Fire & Brimstone and got these numbers:
DoT
0 fire damage - 124 ticks without, 129 ticks with
505 fire damage - 190 ticks without, 198 ticks with
764 fire damage - 226 ticks without, 234 ticks with
995 fire damage - 255 ticks without, 265 ticks with
I checked it a couple times because it didn't make sense to me, but yes, the DoT damage went up with Fire & Brimstone even when I had 0 fire damage.
Also, in other news, I tried ISB and in its current state, even though the tooltip says it increases damage from non-periodic sources, it still increases the damage of DoTs. I cast a low rank Corruption and then spammed rank 1 SB until it crit and the Corruption ticks went from 210 to 242, the expected 15% increase.
When the current patch was deployed, Haunt increased DoT damage by ... a factor 8?
Warlocks were killing/ganking stuff with Corruptions ticking for 4-5k, so they stomped the talent via a hotfix. WoW Forums -> Haunt Majorly Bugged
Immolate looks very much like a flat 4% increase!
Not that it makes any sense at all, but that's the only thing that seems to fit.
Blink costs 21% of base mana.
Placing a demonic circle costs 15% of base mana, and .5 seconds of casting.
Place one in a strategic position when you reach a new area to fight in, and you're good to go. Shouldn't even be that bad to place multiples during a fight. The cost is enough that you can't be wasteful with it, but it's not that high, really. The potential strategic uses of the port are also awesome, assuming you can use it to port back to a high ground after jumping off.
The teleportation range was never announced to be infinite and knowing the way world is built you would have to place them frequently. Now consider some stealther wanting to kill you and he realises that you will be easier prey when you don't have this tool. His actions? Yes, he will attack you when you've just placed it and stand in it. It's a tool that may be powerful but extremely limited in use. Yes, it will work in arena and can probably easily be teleportable into from any point, yes it can help for certain bosses, but there are many situations when you can use Blink but can't use Demonic Circle. This 15% base mana would make almost 400 for level 70 and yes it's not really completely nothing for a spell that isn't even guaranteed to yield any use.
Originally Posted by Lhivera
I'm not so sure it is silly, when you look at other classes. Frost Mages will pretty much never cast Fire spells; Fire Mages will pretty much never cast Frost spells. Obviously there are a few situations where that general rule gets broken, but it seems to me that for many classes, your spec does in fact exclude a number of your base abilities from general use.
Mages are very school-locked class, but even there I see some basic attempts to improve situation. A handful of talents is being changed to affect all spells, or several spells from different schools. We are less school- or tree-locked, but still there are separate hit talents, separate threat reduction talents. Also Shadow Destruction spells are being affected frequently in Affliction and we have some basic pet talents outside of Demonology, but in general situation doesn't look great. Demonology is probably best because it really affects everything.
Mages are very school-locked class, but even there I see some basic attempts to improve situation. A handful of talents is being changed to affect all spells, or several spells from different schools. We are less school- or tree-locked, but still there are separate hit talents, separate threat reduction talents.
Right, but those changes don't really affect what we cast, they just give us some cross-tree synergy so we can help other people who do cast spells from other schools. Frost Mages are getting a talent that might make a Fireball cast make sense, one cast out of 10, or might not, depending on situation (it's more a DPM increase than a DPS increase). Similarly, Destruction is getting a talent that might make it make sense to cast Corruption to boost Fire damage, or might not. But these talents are by no means a strong push. While you're not school-locked, that still doesn't mean that it will make sense, for any spec, to use every spell in its arsenal. I don't see nearly as many complaints, for example, about the fact that an Affliction 'lock will rarely cast Incinerate, so why the concern over Destruction 'locks not casting Corruption?
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
I don't see nearly as many complaints, for example, about the fact that an Affliction 'lock will rarely cast Incinerate, so why the concern over Destruction 'locks not casting Corruption?
I think this is a rhetorical question, and I agree with the logical analogies you provide, but you'll also note the general sentiment from some/many warlocks that dots are class-defining, and the destruction tree in BC pushed warlocks away from dots and into a playstyle that too closely resembled mages (chaincasting a single nuke). None of this is exactly news (but you asked), and I expect it's this sentiment that's driving the complaint you note. I don't see it as an issue of school-locking (shadowbolt v. incinerate), rather an issue of mechanics (dot v. direct damage). I'd argue you see plenty of argument from affliction locks over having to cast shadowbolt to prove that point.
Right, but those changes don't really affect what we cast, they just give us some cross-tree synergy so we can help other people who do cast spells from other schools. Frost Mages are getting a talent that might make a Fireball cast make sense, one cast out of 10, or might not, depending on situation (it's more a DPM increase than a DPS increase). Similarly, Destruction is getting a talent that might make it make sense to cast Corruption to boost Fire damage, or might not. But these talents are by no means a strong push. While you're not school-locked, that still doesn't mean that it will make sense, for any spec, to use every spell in its arsenal. I don't see nearly as many complaints, for example, about the fact that an Affliction 'lock will rarely cast Incinerate, so why the concern over Destruction 'locks not casting Corruption?
Shadow Bolt and Incinerate are designed as fillers and for that reason one of them is likely to be excluded from rotation. Other spells however deserve higher representation in rotations regardless of spec. Adding some reason to use Incinerate in Affliction rotation wouldn't hurt, same for Shadow Bolt in Fire Destruction. Yes, presence of Shadow Mastery and Emberstorm shift tree power towards that school, but it's also sufficient. Moving Incinerate cast time reduction to Bane would make Demonologists most school-balanced, though sorting out Improved Shadow Bolt to remove disparity would be nice as well. Molten Core isn't bad idea, but if it turns out into watching RNG-based buffs to determine spells, it's not adding fun to game, game is supposed to be fun, it should offer some amount of relaxation regardless of what you do there, instead I catch myself thinking of it as of job due to dailies and some focus-intensive fights.
Speaking of Corruption it's just poorly designed in the current state. Crazy cast time DOT with horrible scaling coefficient which is main reason of it not being in rotations. We've had enough of being fully Destruction-based in raids, time to think about Affliction spell support in Destruction.
In the end Fire school lock is bad because its potentially immune/resistant school, unlike Shadow and Holy (which aren't represented in current single school boss immunities list). This concerns me quite a lot ever since Molten Core and Blackwing Lair.
I'd put it that for the Warlock class to really feel its own unique individuality, it needs to do its thing differently than a mage. There are several areas that can be explored:
1) Pets contributing non-trival DPS
2) Damage over time spells
3) Multiple damage types
4) Important debuffs
I think Blizzard is trying to move away from #4 so that having a warlock isn't mandatory, and I'm fine with that. But options 1-3 really do give a good feel to the Warlock in my opinion. I don't see any reason NOT to set up the class that way, and certainly "well mages don't do it that way" isn't a very compelling argument to me. If you consider the talent tree setup for Warlocks, Affliction really misses out on #3 but pushes #2 really hard. Demo pushes #1 hardest, but picks up a bit of 2 and 3 depending on the off-tree. Destruction is currently risking missing out on 2, 3 and 4 which I think is why people keeping getting bothered by it. Adding Corruption in to Destruction's rotation address 2, and making Shadow Bolt and Incinerate part of a rotation addresses #3.
In the end, attempting to define a warlock by using a mage is never useful except in terms of final DPS and utility. If warlocks wanted to deal damage through fishing, I'm not really certain why a mage would care as long as the end numbers come out balanced.
After spending some quality time with Immolate and incinerate spam I can say that either I am the least lucky human ever to play the game or molten core only procs from shadow based direct damage spells and shadow based damage over time spells.
I didnt see if I could proc it with the focusing crystal yet. That is a project for another day.
Personally I've never complained about that. :P I'm of the opinion that a complicated spell rotation isn't "interesting," just time consuming and annoying. You're going to hit the same spells thousands of times, whether there's 1 button or 6.
Well, neither have I.
In the more complex boss fights there is enough for me to keep track of, so I actually see it as a good thing that to do DPS I simply have to push "2". Maybe I am just a bad player.
But for good or bad, these times seem to be over with WotLK.
* Improved Felhunter (Tier 6) changed so that your Felhunter gains mana equal to 100/200% of the damage done by it's Shadow Bite ability. (Previously 50/100%)
* Dark Pact (Tier 7) returns 200% of your pet's drained mana. (Previously 100%)
* Haunt (Tier 11) increases all damage done by DoT's by 20% while the target is afflicted with Haunt.
Destruction
* Fire and Brimstone (Tier 10) has been changed to NYI (Not Yet Implemented)
In the more complex boss fights there is enough for me to keep track of, so I actually see it as a good thing that to do DPS I simply have to push "2". Maybe I am just a bad player.
But for good or bad, these times seem to be over with WotLK.
In the current UI model you should be able to make even TBC Affliction a single-button spam where it will properly recast DOTs when they expire, with only resists needing your attention. It will need something more complicated than a single /castsequence command, and maybe a small addon, but it's doable, and it doesn't seem to violate current designers' view about how the game should be played and how it shouldn't.
Anyway I think multiple spells in rotation are needed for cosmetic reasons so you see different visual effects flying out of your character instead of just the same Shadow Bolt you see for 3 or more years ever since level 1.
* Haunt (Tier 11) increases all damage done by DoT's by 20% while the target is afflicted with Haunt.
Is this supposed to be worded so as to only affect the warlock's DoT effects? Or is it intended to work on every DoT effect in raids? I've been trying to keep up with most of the caster debuff changes, and I never noticed haunt being worded like this before. Obviously if someone has tested it with another person recently, that would be the best confirmation!
I only read it on mmo-champion. I can't acces beta atm, so i can't test it myself. Maybe someone else can do this.
But it's the first time the wording is changed.
It always specificly said: damage done by your damage-over-time spells.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed it boosts all DoT now...
While the tree looked decent before.. this change would be instant raid viability for affliction.
Just an idea from me: what, if Death Emrace increases Drain life by 30% (with 3 points invested in it) in the case you are at 100% percent life ? This talent is in high position in the tree, so only committed locks get it; and, most importantly, Drain Life possibly could be the filler for affliction locks without the chance to be too strong.
I think the reason why Drain Life won't ever become a filler for Affliction warlocks is essentially because Drain Life doesn't scales as well as say Shadow Bolt. I seem to remember something I read about spells that do both damage and healing getting 50% of the spell damage coefficient as would a spell that did merely damage. Is that true?
I am a bit confused what the new Dark Pact talent change will do. It's a buff, but how big?
Level 70
Drains 700 of your summoned demon's Mana, returning 200% to you.
30 yd range, Instant
Unknown to me is the scaling: is it still 96% of spell power? (Unlikely.) Or did they simply cut it in half, so 200% becomes what it is on live with the exception your Imp isn't drained in one click?
Another thing: what is the imp's mana pool at 77 and what is his regeneration rate at?
Can someone in beta shed some light on this, would be appreciated.
Originally Posted by Thanahtos
I think the reason why Drain Life won't ever become a filler for Affliction warlocks is essentially because Drain Life doesn't scales as well as say Shadow Bolt. I seem to remember something I read about spells that do both damage and healing getting 50% of the spell damage coefficient as would a spell that did merely damage. Is that true?
This is true. Drain Life and Siphon Life have a 50% scaling penalty due to being healing + damage.
I am a bit confused what the new Dark Pact talent change will do. It's a buff, but how big?
Level 70
Drains 700 of your summoned demon's Mana, returning 200% to you.
30 yd range, Instant
Unknown to me is the scaling: is it still 96% of spell power? (Unlikely.) Or did they simply cut it in half, so 200% becomes what it is on live with the exception your Imp isn't drained in one click?
Another thing: what is the imp's mana pool at 77 and what is his regeneration rate at?
Can someone in beta shed some light on this, would be appreciated.
Real confirmation from a tester would be great, but it seems pretty likely that you're looking at:
Drained from Pet: 700 + 0.96 * Spell Power
Returned: (700 + 0.96 * Spell Power) * 2
Also, I'm unsure why people are still talking about the Imp. With Avoidance, and with Shadow Bite now also returning twice as much mana as the damage it deals, using a Felhunter to DPS means you're not only adding a couple hundred DPS to Affliction's total, but you can mooch mana from the Felhunter via Dark Pact and it'll quickly regenerate the mana you took in the process of dealing its damage.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
Imp's mana regeneration is largely irrelevent as it will be less than the felhunter's regeneration spamming shadow bite in an affliction build with improved fellhunter which affliction locks should be taking for the raid buff anyway. As long as the mana pool of the felhunter is big enough to cover the cost of one pact then pet mana should be a non-issue. The larger question is will dark pact still return more mana than a talented lifetap.
Because the range of the fel hunter's buff (a mere 20 yards) and him being in melee range and actually needing to hit something and not dieing are atm too restrictive to always rely on.
Having a phased out imp in many cases might be soo much better, especially if his mana pool is way bigger and his regen matches a fully active fel hunter.
Hence the questions about the Imp.
Originally Posted by Lhivera
Real confirmation from a tester would be great, but it seems pretty likely that you're looking at:
Drained from Pet: 700 + 0.96 * Spell Power
Returned: (700 + 0.96 * Spell Power) * 2
Don't you think I can figure that out for myself? Obviously I asked a beta tester not theorycrafters.
Originally Posted by tetracycloide
Imp's mana regeneration is largely irrelevent as it will be less than the felhunter's regeneration spamming shadow bite in an affliction build with improved fellhunter which affliction locks should be taking for the raid buff anyway. As long as the mana pool of the felhunter is big enough to cover the cost of one pact then pet mana should be a non-issue. The larger question is will dark pact still return more mana than a talented lifetap.
How do you know the imp's mana regen will be less? Have you tested this? "raid buff" that is 20 yards around a big mean boss can be irrelevant in many situations. Raids often need to spread out in camps. Where is your buff then? Where is your Dark Pact?
Two questions since I had people asking for Warlock models:
1) Does Lash of Pain still eat ISB charge in Wrath?
2) Does Shadowbite eat ISB charges?
They managed to make the HMgT trinket's DD Shadowbolt not eat charges, so there is hope that those two got fixed as well.
Main reason why I'm asking is using Succubus as 0/50/21 Demo spec, because the Master Demonology buff of the Imp is quite worthless since Incinerate without Emberstorm is pretty much a waste.
Not sure if the Felguard turns out better, its MD buff is weaker at least.
08/13/08, 5:27 AM
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