WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion - Page 95

Darian_TruBlade · 08/29/08, 3:27 PM

I think A+B is the likely scenario. Both Boomkin and Warlocks make damage sacrifices for their utility. The goal, I would think, would be for those bringing utility to have lower DPS, with one, the other or both being able to increase their DPS when their utility isn't necessary.

Utility in 10 mans won't be overpowered for the simple reason that most of it is completely redundant. Aside from truly unique utility (Innervate, Bloodlust, Scorch/Winter's Chill etc.) all those buffs and debuffs are shared enough between classes that no one class, whatever array of abilities they bring, has any edge over the others. A Boomkin can bring a metric ton of buff/debuffs, but for any of them to be useful you need to already have casters in the raid who could easily have brought some of those debuffs themselves.

Atrocity3 · 08/29/08, 3:34 PM

Originally Posted by Flamingcloud

I agree that D would be the most balanced for 10 and 25 man, but also agree that the game is getting too diluted. Even this raid stacking changes makes everyone not unique, it is really depressing. I think A or B is the most likely(B being the most), C is a pipe dream that only the deluded would believe is possible.

I don't think a point in fel dom and a point in fel vit are going to be better than shadow burn and shadowfury(If you are going the 13 demo route). I don't really think 13 points in demo just for imp fel aegis, and imp imp will be better than chaos bolt, instant corruption, imp coa, and imp lifetap, but maybe.

Still there is no real way to pick the finished destruction spec as fire and brimstone and chaosbolt are not done for sure, and others are likely not done as well.

I would take the point out of Fel dom for Shadowfury yes, but I dont see imp coa as that great of a talent. Imp corruption is nice, as is imp lifetap. With the new fel armor I do see demonic aegis as a good talent to try to get if you can. I wouldnt personally want to work corruption into a destro rotation though

Sydane · 08/29/08, 3:48 PM

Well today's announcement certainly makes high demo a bit stranger, since Demonic Pact doesn't stack, its usefulness becomes highly questionable. ISB as a self buff we may see it return to the original 20% form, which basically makes it a mini-ruin for affliction and demo, since Destro will definitely be fire now. My new 3.0 at level 70 spec is 1/51/9, dumping Demonic Pact for ISB. If you find you need Demonic Pact in your raid, just swap those 4 points back in. I still strongly believe that 1 point in ISB isn't worth dropping Metamorphosis for, but if you really hate Metamorphosis but still want to be deep Demo, I'd recommend 1/47/13 which gives you an additional 3% crit.

With the decrease in silly high scaling due to synergy, Destro stands to take a pretty sizeable hit to dps post 3.0. Since the Felguard actually gains a lot of synergy from the new changes, as well as a lot of survivability, I'm betting Demo retakes the top spot on the meters for warlocks (at 70 with 3.0 talents). Of course this all yet remains to be seen with the final balance pass which no doubt will throw us all for a loop yet again.

Second thoughts edit: Rereading Demonic Empathy, I'm concerned it sucks for the Felguard. It specifically says "spell or ability," which may include only cleave for the Felguard. If this is the case, it's a horrible talent in general, because no one is going to go deep demo and use an Imp, and it would barely be up at all with the Felguard. I had assumed previously it included melee hits as well (and hopefully in the end it will). The end result of this stands to have a big impact on my perception of the top of the tree. We could potentially see builds like 1/44/26 as the Felguard raiding builds, with Metamorphosis builds using the Imp to maximize Demonic Empathy, or just skipping it completely.

Atrocity3 · 08/29/08, 3:54 PM

Imho I doubt Blizzard is going to let Destro slip enough to not be the top dps tree. It might be slightly worse/better after the patch. But it wont be substantial enough to ruin its top dps spot

PSGarak · 08/29/08, 3:55 PM

Blizzard explicitly said that all of the spellpower buffs are going to be a bit wonky because they all scale differently. Based on last week's implimentation (ya, right) Demonic Pact scales better than the rest of them (ie it scales at all, and not with spirit), and will likely be the premier spellpower buff at least at the high-end, possibly at all tiers. Combined with the Felguard's ability to get melee buffs in a caster group, and its ability to get windfury at all, I think Demo is in for a serious boost unless/until it gets intentionally reined in.

As far as level 70 raiding, I think it's going to get a lot harder at first due to the loss of a crapton of synergy. The main goal is to narrow the gap between baseline and raid-buffed; if everyone is brought down to parity, the goal is achieved, and WLK will be balanced against new potential. It's easier to just leave things balanced at the new lower level than buff baseline to compensate. New talents may or may not help close that gap. You will either see far fewer canceled Brutalus raids, or no Brutalus raids at all.

Flamingcloud · 08/29/08, 4:48 PM

The biggest thing that worries me about demo is the lack of mana regen. The new mana battery abilities are not very good, and the new lifetap is going to be horrible at 70. I doubt demo dps is all that good at 70 until it can become 0/50/21.. as an aside to that, I really hope they move demonic empathy, tactics or fel synergy lower in the tree so you can still get everything in 0/50/21... Going to suck if you have to drop all the survivability/scaling talents so you can get ruin. Unless metamorphosis is made amazing I can't imagine not wanting ruin, especially since you will always have the +18% crit in raid buffs. That +18% basically helps destro for all it has lost, as it is the only spec that scales well with crit. Still I would be very surprised if demonic pact wasn't the best +spell power buff if the wording remains as is.

If improved shadowbolt goes back to 20% there is a possibility that shadow destro will become better than fire destro. The changes from live would be both getting +10% crit, isb uptime going up to like 95%, fire losing 15%, shadow losing 10% and both losing 5%, and 15% from demonic sac/misery. So shadow nerfed 5% less and higher isb, and higher crit, might very well offset the emberstorm buff, especially if we have to lifetap alot as 2.5 second shadowbolt with -10%. mana cost glyph is a lot less mana consumption than incinerate.

Zed · 08/29/08, 5:33 PM

If fire and shadow destro come out indeed so close, and the Immolate-line remains ignorable, a build that has both ISB and Molten Core might prove quite involving to play.

Regarding Life Tap, consider you are going to get 13% extra haste (and ISL, a minor regen from spirit, and possibly Replenishment). I do not expect time spent tapping to rise for Destro locks that didn't have Shadow Priests in their groups.

Flamingcloud · 08/29/08, 5:49 PM

Originally Posted by Zed

If fire and shadow destro come out indeed so close, and the Immolate-line remains ignorable, a build that has both ISB and Molten Core might prove quite involving to play.

Regarding Life Tap, consider you are going to get 13% extra haste (and ISL, a minor regen from spirit, and possibly Replenishment). I do not expect time spent tapping to rise for Destro locks that didn't have Shadow Priests in their groups.

Maybe I am just spoiled having a moonkin and a spriest in my group almost 100% of sunwell, and an elemental shaman over half the time. For the warlocks that got crap groups with just a resto shaman, your damage will probably go up, for those that already had everything, your damage will probably go down.

Shadow bolt is listed at 17% base mana, which at level 70 is almost double what it currently is if I am not mistaken.

Sydane · 08/29/08, 5:49 PM

One of the best ways to make Metamorphosis actually get used without having to balance it directly compared to ruin is to force you to go more than 50 points deep to get the worthwhile talents. 0/50/21 is just yet another Demonic Sacrifice situation that is begging for a nerf. Metamorphosis is supposed to be a class defining type skill. For it to get marginalized for 10-15% of damage in another talent point is horrid design, just as DS was.

You should have to make sacrifices to go deep in a tree and still have another 21 point talent. Virtually every other class does. Personally, I'd be disgusted if 0/50/21 becomes the standard, at very least people should be making a more Hybrid build like 5/43/23 (random numbers) if they don't want to go all the way to Metamorphosis, and it should be at best an alternative, not the typical build. Is there a single other class/spec combo that intends to make a 0/50/21 build? I don't know of any. The closest comparison I can think of is Holy Paladins taking Sheathe, which is being hotly debated.

Don't forget, with ISB as a self buff it basically becomes another Ruin. It actually becomes a more significant and interesting talent for non-Destro than it was previously with charges being eaten by other people. If they were to add Haunt to it, it might make Affliction's comparative scaling a lot better, especially if Fire is the only way to go Destro.

I still expect my Level 80 build to be something close to 1/55/15, depending on the final tweaks of course. I'll also be shocked if in the end we are getting 18% from raid buffs considering how drastically the rest have been curbed down, that would just be insanely high scaling. We might have 10% but there will probably be a lot of caveats on it.

Flamingcloud · 08/29/08, 5:53 PM

Originally Posted by Sydane

One of the best ways to make Metamorphosis actually get used without having to balance it directly compared to ruin is to force you to go more than 50 points deep to get the worthwhile talents. 0/50/21 is just yet another Demonic Sacrifice situation that is begging for a nerf. Metamorphosis is supposed to be a class defining type skill. For it to get marginalized for 10-15% of damage in another talent point is horrid design, just as DS was.

You should have to make sacrifices to go deep in a tree and still have another 21 point talent. Virtually every other class does. Personally, I'd be disgusted if 0/50/21 becomes the standard, at very least people should be making a more Hybrid build like 5/43/23 (random numbers) if they don't want to go all the way to Metamorphosis, and it should be at best an alternative, not the typical build. Is there a single other class/spec combo that intends to make a 0/50/21 build? I don't know of any. The closest comparison I can think of is Holy Paladins taking Sheathe, which is being hotly debated.

Don't forget, with ISB as a self buff it basically becomes another Ruin. It actually becomes a more significant and interesting talent for non-Destro than it was previously with charges being eaten by other people. If they were to add Haunt to it, it might make Affliction's comparative scaling a lot better, especially if Fire is the only way to go Destro.

I still expect my Level 80 build to be something close to 1/55/15, depending on the final tweaks of course. I'll also be shocked if in the end we are getting 18% from raid buffs considering how drastically the rest have been curbed down, that would just be insanely high scaling. We might have 10% but there will probably be a lot of caveats on it.

If it stays at +18% crit, you will have over 40% crit rate, that makes ruin a +20% dmg talent. It is hard to believe 1 point in corruption and those extra 5 in demo are going to grant you 20% dmg, -70% interruption, 20% range and 10% less threat.

It is quite possible affliction will end up 50/0/21 as well. Haunt is good but 20% on 50% of your damage vs 20% on 50% of your damage is pretty big toss up(assuming affliction remains 50% dot 50% bolt damage.. if it goes one way or that other that makes your choice clear)

Zed · 08/29/08, 6:05 PM

Originally Posted by Flamingcloud

Shadow bolt is listed at 17% base mana, which at level 70 is almost double what it currently is if I am not mistaken.

Wowwiki lists a base mana value of 2615 for Warlocks at level 70 which would result in an SB cost of 445.

Sydane · 08/29/08, 6:18 PM

Originally Posted by Flamingcloud

If it stays at +18% crit, you will have over 40% crit rate, that makes ruin a +20% dmg talent. It is hard to believe 1 point in corruption and those extra 5 in demo are going to grant you 20% dmg, -70% interruption, 20% range and 10% less threat.

It is quite possible affliction will end up 50/0/21 as well. Haunt is good but 20% on 50% of your damage vs 20% on 50% of your damage is pretty big toss up(assuming affliction remains 50% dot 50% bolt damage.. if it goes one way or that other that makes your choice clear)

We aren't going to hit Naxx in blues with 35% or more effective Crit. It's just not going to happen. Ruin will start out a 10-12% talent and grow to a 15-20% talent in the extreme endgame, just as it has in BC. If anything, the crit we start with in early Naxx will be even lower than it was early BC due to the more extreme Ratings curve. It's like Ret Paladins having 15k crits, some things may look fun and seem possible to balance, but you know it's not realistic. Blizzard is toning down scaling from buffs, they aren't going to leave in one insanely high loophole that turns all the casters into instant Gods.

You can bet Blizzard is watching Warlock builds like a hawk after the Demonic Sacrifice fiasco, Ruin will not become what DS was. It never reached that point in BC, and it won't reach that point in WotLK. Ruin always looks better on napkin math than what it really takes to balance against it. People will be using Haunt and Metamorphosis, and not just because they are new and cool.

Flamingcloud · 08/29/08, 7:28 PM

Originally Posted by Sydane

We aren't going to hit Naxx in blues with 35% or more effective Crit. It's just not going to happen. Ruin will start out a 10-12% talent and grow to a 15-20% talent in the extreme endgame, just as it has in BC. If anything, the crit we start with in early Naxx will be even lower than it was early BC due to the more extreme Ratings curve. It's like Ret Paladins having 15k crits, some things may look fun and seem possible to balance, but you know it's not realistic. Blizzard is toning down scaling from buffs, they aren't going to leave in one insanely high loophole that turns all the casters into instant Gods.

You can bet Blizzard is watching Warlock builds like a hawk after the Demonic Sacrifice fiasco, Ruin will not become what DS was. It never reached that point in BC, and it won't reach that point in WotLK. Ruin always looks better on napkin math than what it really takes to balance against it. People will be using Haunt and Metamorphosis, and not just because they are new and cool.

Demo has 10% from talents 18% from raid buffs, probably another 4% from int 5% from base and 7% still from bc crit rating by my count, that is 44% as the minimum for demo locks, soon as gear upgrades and all the new chants come in the value will be pushed higher, not to mention the new firestone giving over 1% crit. Wouldn't surprise me if my first naxx 25 man I was pushing 48% crit as demo. Destro will most likely have even more than that with backlash/empowered imp. I currently run well over 40% crit on live fully buffed, and that is without a +10% crit buff and +5% crit talent. Less than half of that 43ish % comes from int/spell crit rating.

The crit will certainly not be lower than early BC, back when there was no ret paladin, moonkin, or ele shaman in any raid. I certainly didn't finish pre-bc with 20%+ crit from int/rating. Not to mention the new crit talent of improved scorch/winterschill.

The first 21 destruction is way better than the first 21 demo ever was, I don't see any reason why ruin won't become what DS was. Only two ways to prevent it,

1. Nerf early destruction hard, move ruin(or make it a base ability), etc.
2. Make demo and affliction so bottom loaded you need 60 points in those trees. Right now both those trees are 54-55ish needed, when you have 10 good points to compete with ruin/devastation you might have a chance. They have to be so good at the bottom that it won't matter that you don't scale well with crit.

Cpt. Hammer · 08/29/08, 11:04 PM

Mmo-champion has updated their calculators, and Shadow Embrace now reads:
"Your Corruption, Curse of Agony, Siphon Life and Seed of Corruption spells also cause you to gain the Shadow Embrace effect for 12 sec, increasing Shadow damage dealt by 10%."

I can't see any other updates, apart from new icons for a lot of talents.

PSGarak · 08/29/08, 11:13 PM

I am very very curious where they get their information from. Is that actually data-mined from the client?
Also new: Frailty now reduces the attack power portion of CoR by 50/100% rather than increases the AC debuff.

Flamingcloud · 08/29/08, 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by Cpt. Hammer

Mmo-champion has updated their calculators, and Shadow Embrace now reads:
"Your Corruption, Curse of Agony, Siphon Life and Seed of Corruption spells also cause you to gain the Shadow Embrace effect for 12 sec, increasing Shadow damage dealt by 10%."

I can't see any other updates, apart from new icons for a lot of talents.

Pretty big upgrade to aff specs. The three specs I see shaping up with are.

32/0/39 Dots+Shadowbolt Spam
50/0/21 Ruin over Haunt (since imp scorch/winter's chill are +10% crit still, gonna be rolling 40% crit even as affliction probably)
53/0/18 Haunt spec

Smurrf · 08/29/08, 11:49 PM

Maybe this is new, if it isn't I've missed it entirely before this:

Curse of the Elements: Curses the target for 5 min, reducing Arcane, Fire, Frost, Nature, and Shadow resistances by 165 and increasing Arcane, Fire, Frost, Nature and Shadow damage taken by 10%. Only one Curse per Warlock can be active on any one target.

Does bring it back on par with the Druid version again (edit: with Malediction).

Flamingcloud · 08/29/08, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by Smurrf

Maybe this is new, if it isn't I've missed it entirely before this:

Curse of the Elements: Curses the target for 5 min, reducing Arcane, Fire, Frost, Nature, and Shadow resistances by 165 and increasing Arcane, Fire, Frost, Nature and Shadow damage taken by 10%. Only one Curse per Warlock can be active on any one target.

Does bring it back on par with the Druid version again (edit: with Malediction).

No reason for a lock to waste a dps curse and 3 talents(talents that could be used for other things) even as affliction when you get it for free from moonkins and unholy dks since it is baked directly into their dps abilities.

Edit: Aside from when the bosses need to have their resistances reduced of course.

Wyand · 08/30/08, 12:00 AM

Isn't the Moonkin-Version still a bit superior, 'cause it also increases Holy Damage? That should at least benefit Prot- and Ret-Paladins, not to forget the tremendous dps from the new "enchant", tailors can apply to their own cloaks.

By the way, i'd spec Affliction something like http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...00000000000000, if a talented CoA turns out to be the better one and leave out Malediction. Even grants you 2% hit on both, Affliction and Destruction spells, although that might be useless because of Soulshatter-resists.

PSGarak · 08/30/08, 12:19 AM

CoE has included Nature damage in the tooltip description for a while now. The absence of holy damage may or may not be intended, I'm not sure everything has been updated with the new stacking stuff yet.

Bonestorm · 08/30/08, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by Flamingcloud

Pretty big upgrade to aff specs.

This is essentially replacing shadow weaving, so not really.

Smurrf · 08/30/08, 12:27 AM

Ah, okay then. I was doing a comparison between WotLK Wiki's talent page and calc vs MMO Champion's version, and saw a difference...which is the only reason I brought it up. Earth and Moon's ingame tooltip in Beta does not show Holy damage, however.

Edit: and to the above, yeah it is an upgrade. Not all raids had Shadow Priests, and for the new predominance of 10 man progression, having that on the lock's side instead of relying on class synergy with someone that may or not be in the group is a good thing.

Bonestorm · 08/30/08, 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by Smurrf

Ah, okay then. I was doing a comparison between WotLK Wiki's talent page and calc vs MMO Champion's version, and saw a difference...which is the only reason I brought it up. Earth and Moon's ingame tooltip in Beta does not show Holy damage, however.

Edit: and to the above, yeah it is an upgrade. Not all raids had Shadow Priests, and for the new predominance of 10 man progression, having that on the lock's side instead of relying on class synergy with someone that may or not be in the group is a good thing.

An upgrade for 5/10 mans with no spriest maybe, but affli damage is still down in 25 man, before considering new talents like haunt and everlasting affliction, since we also lost 5% damage from misery. We also have to spend 5 talent points to replace an effect that wasn't even ours, and we lost the original effect of shadow embrace entirely.

PsyBomb · 08/30/08, 12:49 AM

does anyone know if the new ISB self-buff stacks with the new Shadow Weaving?

I also never got a tested answer for this, is ISB affecting DoT damage? I don't think the answer matters anymore, but it will be good to know.

Smurrf · 08/30/08, 12:56 AM

Originally Posted by Bonestorm

An upgrade for 5/10 mans with no spriest maybe, but affli damage is still down in 25 man, before considering new talents like haunt and everlasting affliction, since we also lost 5% damage from misery. We also have to spend 5 talent points to replace an effect that wasn't even ours, and we lost the original effect of shadow embrace entirely.

So wait, you're going to say Aff damage is down, but take out two multiplicative talents that boost it up in order to say that? Of course it'll be down at that point.

And consider this: most Afflocks in a high raid situation were already taking Shadow Embrace solely as a utility spell. Did it help the Warlock at all? Except for very specific occurrences (Gruul's Lair), we're now not spending points in something that's being taken over by another class, and getting permanent damage boost for ourselves. More damage when soloing, more damage in low groups, and at the very least, approximately equal damage in 25's...if not more damage.

Keep in mind, too...Warlocks still are getting another large pass before 3.0 hits Live...this isn't over by any means.