Empowered Imp and Improved Sould Leech offer nearly 20% crit chance and remove the need to life tap.
I'm not sure how that is better than 1% crit and 10% damage.
We need to trade imps.
I see your point in imp soul leech though, and at that point you've got 3 points to spare and 3/3 Emp Imp > 3/5 SM.
yeah, a percent or two doesn't worry me when Lifetap is returning 25-30% more mana relative to now (just going by napkin math on a 70, but it's a good indicator). Shadowbolt glyph reducing it by 10% also puts it well below current, and EVERY raiding warlock is going to keep that one equipped.
In case anyone is wondering, I'm going by something of a wish-list set of stats. Badge +hit gear has a good load of spirit, regemming to Purified in Red and Blue sockets with Reckless in the Yellow, switching the chest to +6 to all stats, and a couple of inscription notes. It's a very rough estimation, but using 3.0 mechanics, it seems to give good ballpark figures.
EDIT: I was mistaken on some Inscription mechanics, tank you to the below poster.
Hm, what napkin math? On live, I tap for around 1800 self-buffed. On beta, I tap for around 1150 at 70. I do have a total of 6 spirit from gear, coming from my chest enchant, however it would take an additional 220ish Spirit in order to tap for the same values. I can't see how anyone will have anywhere near that much Spirit when 3.0 goes live, so expect to be tapping for substantially less until you start getting level 80 itemization.
I like how everyone throwing out the new big shadowbolt spec that has Shadow Embrace and Shadow and Flame is taking 5/5 Emberstorm and Molten Core. Have we forgotten what it is to raid on live? http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...00000000000000
Because Immolate is still likely to used in a rotation, especially in the earlier raids. DPS for me always outweighs the survivability we have in spades.
I personally don't think I'll be taking backdraft at 70. Too much work in the rotation. :P And I hate conflag/spending 9 points for backdraft. Also you don't get goodies like Intensity (pushback resistance), Shadowfury, and Backlash. All great skills for when you havfe aggro on something for whatever reason. (well besides a boss). Or if you like aoe farming (hint hint, leveling + instance farming to 80 maybe?).
Seeing some pretty heavy dps potential there. But it all depends on the pet. Might even see Succubus live through AoE if pet avoidance makes it in. Would be a dream come true to me. Felguard might out-dps her though, but then again she might make up for it through MD's 5% crit. Demonic Pact seems massive for the raid even though you can't get Devastation which really supports that talent and personal DPS well.
On the destro front fire seems the way to go to me. So I'm not all that leaned to speccing destro since most if not all my +shadow would go to waste completely and I don't feel like re-gearing to fire.
Affliction seems quite the monster, too. Something like 51/0/10 might indeed do some massive DPS. It depends in the Felhunter and Haunt, though.
Definately gonna give each tree a shot. Although I'm leaning towards Demonology atm. I just love the thought about finally seeing Succubus whipping the shit out of mobs in a raid scenario. I also love the thought about that tree's impact on raidDPS.
Last edited by TangoDigital : 09/01/08 at 9:38 AM.
So all this talk about 3.0 coming soon has me thinking. I was messing around with 61 point builds on the wrath calculators.
I personally don't think I'll be taking backdraft at 70. Too much work in the rotation. :P And I hate conflag/spending 9 points for backdraft. Also you don't get goodies like Intensity (pushback resistance), Shadowfury, and Backlash. All great skills for when you havfe aggro on something for whatever reason. (well besides a boss). Or if you like aoe farming (hint hint, leveling + instance farming to 80 maybe?).
I tried coming up with a 0/13/48 shadowbolt build, but it looked awful.
Yeah Shadow destro is fairly broken now, I see a lot of people trying to hold onto them by making Affliction/destro builds using the new shadow embrace, but trading a 15% sac for 10% dmg proc isnt going to make up the difference, sorry.
I think in terms of lvl 70 build come 3.0 that I will be trying a 0/3/58 build. I am banking on Imp soul leach to return enough mana to not worry so much about not having improved demon armor. I think the top Destro talents will return more than demonic aegis in terms of dps and be the better choice untill we have the other 10 poitns to play with. Here is hoping F&B get s a good look during our review this week, as after all the points spent in immolate, another 5 points to buff a spell we are being designed to clip, is a little bit of a dissapointment. Same for top tiered Affliction.. yay another "increases dot dmg by x amount" talent
I am curious in your "if we much have chaos bolt" spec why you put 7 point in Affliction? Imp soul lech and imp life tap, and instant corruption without molten core, I'm sure there is better filler than that. I strongly feel that unless they do something about the "bang for the buck" of lower affliction, that any hybrid Demo will go destro.. and destro will go demo, since you wont get much from lower afflicion in terms of DPS boosters.
I am curious in your "if we much have chaos bolt" spec why you put 7 point in Affliction? Imp soul lech and imp life tap, and instant corruption without molten core, I'm sure there is better filler than that. I strongly feel that unless they do something about the "bang for the buck" of lower affliction, that any hybrid Demo will go destro.. and destro will go demo, since you wont get much from lower afflicion in terms of DPS boosters.
I just figured the 20% better life tap might outweigh the immolate talents. Seeing as you can't get demonic aegis with chaos bolt at 70, I dropped the rest of the points in demo too, since it's just 15% imp stam/int, 3% stam/int, 4 or 8% stam, and imp health stones without demonic aegis.
I wasn't particularly planning on using corruption, perhaps the 3% aff hit would help if you were doing a damage curse? It just seemed like outside of raiding, having another instant spell couldn't hurt.
An alternate build would be to swap the daze points for 2/3 Molten Core, the Aff points for 3% hit (so you have 3% for both trees) and 10% CoA damage I guess. I wonder, would that build then make using CoA over CoD more dps? Of course, the first lock would be using CoE (unless you have a DK or Moonkin I suppose).
I suppose you could pick up the rest of the immolate talents and go 0/3/58 instead. I dunno one way or another which is going to be better. I'm hoping it's my way, because personally I prefer simpler rotations. :P And all those immolate and conflag talents are anything but simple.
*Fingers crossed for our review this week to majorly change the weak stuff and make all of this much clearer*
I'm not quite sure of what Blizzard was thinking putting Molten Core in Destruction, which is essential now a fire tree. Outside of 25-man raids, locks have a greater chance of needing to use a utility curse, in which case there'll be no CoA/CoD. The only situation I can see the talent having any use is if the lock is casting CoA. Firstly, does it proc off DoT ticks or only the application of the DoT? If the latter then it's a completely useless talent for a destro lock. If the former, then is it worth it? Does applying a DoT which looks to me to be lesser DPCT just to get a proc for a temporary fire boost come out ahead of just doing Immolate/Incinerate (possibly Conflag) rotations?
Blizzard said that Molten Core was for Demonology warlocks who wanted to spec destro and use fire damage. A deep-demo build can't really get fire to stand on its own, so it allows their shadow casting to support the fire playstyle rather than detracting from it. Of course, implimentation can be a far cry from intent. But it seems reasonable to me that a shallow talent is more about making a tree 'gel' with another one, rather than working with that tree in isolation.
Yeah Shadow destro is fairly broken now, I see a lot of people trying to hold onto them by making Affliction/destro builds using the new shadow embrace, but trading a 15% sac for 10% dmg proc isnt going to make up the difference, sorry.
I think your looking at this in the wrong light, both Fire and Shadow have lost numerous buffs/debuffs/effects. It's basically a clean slate as far as scaling goes. Nothings going to be the same as it is in live, or even close to it.
However, the reason people are so keen to hold onto Shadow atm, is that it appears it might still have the potential for superior scaling, just not to the degree that it is in live.
SM, SE & ISB vs Emberstorm. Thats what it boils down to, I don't think anybodys looking at it as a true replacement for DS.
I don't think that's it at all. I think it has to do with the fact that if we wanted to be fire mages, we'd have rolled fire mage. Rather, the shadow nature of a nuke spec felt inherently unique to that of a mage, and left us feeling "special".
If that's the key I think the Green Fire glyph would solve the issue and we'd be done with it.
In the end, it also isn't just SE, ISB and SM. You can't take full S&F if you take full SM unless you plan on ignoring Imp SL. You also lose Emp Imp, Backdraft and any shot at Demonology talents. You might gain some scaling factors for Shadow Bolt, but ultimately it feels like you're sacrificing too many other DPS increases for them.
I think your looking at this in the wrong light, both Fire and Shadow have lost numerous buffs/debuffs/effects. It's basically a clean slate as far as scaling goes. Nothings going to be the same as it is in live, or even close to it.
However, the reason people are so keen to hold onto Shadow atm, is that it appears it might still have the potential for superior scaling, just not to the degree that it is in live.
SM, SE & ISB vs Emberstorm. Thats what it boils down to, I don't think anybodys looking at it as a true replacement for DS.
Fire lost misery, imp scorch, and DS. Gained all these immolate talents, -0.5 seconds not 10% haste (that's huge, tbh), +10% crit, did I forget anything?
Shadow lost misery, shadow weaving (is that the right name? The Spriest +10% damage thing.), 5% off ISB, DS. Gained.... um, what now?
Both got emp. imp. Isn't the mage +crit chance stuff Fire/Arcane/Frost only? Or did they change those to include Shadow and Nature?
(And like that other guy said, if you go into Aff for SE, you have to 1) spend GCDs dotting. 2) lose ALL the Demo points. 3) skimp on top level Destro talents. Like S&F, Emp. Imp, Imp. SL. You don't even have the option of going Backdraft, F&B, or Chaos Bolt I don't think. 4) ???? 5) Overall, it doesn't seem profitable (laugh dammit) to me to drop so much for something like SE.)
Overall, Fire was very comparable to Shadow before, and it got buffed (buffed overall too) a LOT more than Shadow (which actually seems nerfed overall).
It sounds to myself like I'm forgetting some buff/debuff changes (lost and gained both), so please remind me if I did!
Fire lost misery, imp scorch, and DS. Gained all these immolate talents, -0.5 seconds not 10% haste (that's huge, tbh), +10% crit, did I forget anything?
Shadow lost misery, shadow weaving (is that the right name? The Spriest +10% damage thing.), 5% off ISB, DS. Gained.... um, what now?
Both got emp. imp. Isn't the mage +crit chance stuff Fire/Arcane/Frost only? Or did they change those to include Shadow and Nature?
(And like that other guy said, if you go into Aff for SE, you have to 1) spend GCDs dotting. 2) lose ALL the Demo points. 3) skimp on top level Destro talents. Like S&M, Emp. Imp, Imp. SL. You don't even have the option of going Backdraft, F&B, or Chaos Bolt I don't think. 4) ???? 5) Overall, it doesn't seem profitable (laugh dammit) to me to drop so much for something like SE.)
Overall, Fire was very comparable to Shadow before, and it got buffed (buffed overall too) a LOT more than Shadow (which actually seems nerfed overall).
It sounds to myself like I'm forgetting some buff/debuff changes (lost and gained both), so please remind me if I did!
Mage buffs are all spell critical. Also ISB is self buff now so much bigger uptime and bigger personal dps boost.
(And like that other guy said, if you go into Aff for SE, you have to 1) spend GCDs dotting. 2) lose ALL the Demo points. 3) skimp on top level Destro talents. Like S&M, Emp. Imp, Imp. SL. You don't even have the option of going Backdraft, F&B, or Chaos Bolt I don't think. 4) ???? 5) Overall, it doesn't seem profitable (laugh dammit) to me to drop so much for something like SE.)
What is S&M? You mean S&F? You can easily have it along with SE.
I really don't understand why you would even want to have SE if you also want to have fire talents like F&B and Backdraft.
I see no problem with using GCDs casting dots, since they will have higher DPCT anyways, especially now when the amplify curse has been buffed incredibly.
If crit% from gear remains the same + crit buffs from optimal raid is 18%(?) wouldn't this grant the ISB debuff to be on all the time? That gives you +15% to shadow. Shadow Embrace gives you +10% to shadow, and Shadow Mastery another 10%. Then you also get 105.7% gear coefficiency to shadow bolt with S&F. I am looking at sh*tload of scaling here, along with very powerful dots.
Really looking forward to see does this kind of spec turn out to be good. Would be my "dreams come true" atleast.
Mage buffs are all spell critical. Also ISB is self buff now so much bigger uptime and bigger personal dps boost.
It won't be a bigger personal DPS boost than it is currently. Even if you can keep it up 100% of the time, even T4 guilds could have it up 80% of the time previously. The drop from 20%-15% is a bigger loss than the gains from it moving to a self buff.
Originally Posted by Claster
What is S&M? You mean S&F? You can easily have it along with SE.
I really don't understand why you would even want to have SE if you also want to have fire talents like F&B and Backdraft.
I see no problem with using GCDs casting dots, since they will have higher DPCT anyways, especially now when the amplify curse has been buffed incredibly.
If crit% from gear remains the same + crit buffs from optimal raid is 18%(?) wouldn't this grant the ISB debuff to be on all the time? That gives you +15% to shadow. Shadow Embrace gives you +10% to shadow, and Shadow Mastery another 10%. Then you also get 105.7% gear coefficiency to shadow bolt with S&F. I am looking at sh*tload of scaling here, along with very powerful dots.
Really looking forward to see does this kind of spec turn out to be good. Would be my "dreams come true" atleast.
The point isn't that a Shadow Destruction build would want F&B and Backdraft, but that a lot of the arguments for such builds are ignoring those aspects of Fire Destruction. Focusing entirely on scaling factors works for BC because there isn't much else to it, but LK has a lot of less obvious mechanics to consider.
Let's start, however, with scaling. Starting with Shadowbolt's 85.7% base coefficient we add the 20% from S&F, then multiply by the ISB, SE and SM factors for a total of 147.1%. On a per second basis, that's 58.84%/sec. Incinerate has 71.4% base, adding the 20% from S&F brings us to 91.4%. With Emberstorm we reach 100.6% or 50.3%/sec. So in terms of pure scaling the Shadow Destruction build conceptually works.
The problem is that Fire Destruction is also able to acquire Imp SL, Emp Imp and Demonic Aegis among other talents. With Imp SL and Demonic Aegis Fire Destruction will allow the build to spend a lot less time Lifetapping compared to Shadow Destruction. Fire Destruction will also get a greater DPS increase from their Imp from Imp Imp and Emp Imp.
Shadow Destruction has it's own benefits, but DoTs may ultimately be more of a hindrance than a help. The impressive 147.1% scaling on Shadow Bolt, combined with Crit/Haste scaling, can ultimately mean that the damage/cast time of your DoTs will fall behind. You could theoretically reach a situation where SE is entirely obsolete, although I think CoA at least will be able to maintain its usefulness indefinitely.
In short, the proposed Shadow Destruction build looks good on paper but I'm skeptical of its viability compared to Fire Destruction. I'd say the difference between Shadow and Fire builds should be tested, but as we're waiting for the Warlock review I think any such effort would likely be wasted.
Mindflay will apparently be modified to recieve damage from crit, as well as an increased coeffecient alleviating scaling issues for our warlock-who-misrolled friends. The obvious follow up question whether something similar was to be expected for affliction warlocks was answered with "Someththing similar, yes". This should be interesting.
They really should just give us a Shadow (Aff) Demon (Demo) Fire (Destro) trees and move imp SB over to the Aff tree, removing some of the Shadow Talents in Destro and encorperating them in the Aff tree, atm with current talents we are ending up boosting spells and abilities that were rarely going to use or gain benefit from to get to the talents we need. Streamlining the trees would be a much welcomed change for me.
They really should just give us a Shadow (Aff) Demon (Demo) Fire (Destro) trees and move imp SB over to the Aff tree, removing some of the Shadow Talents in Destro and encorperating them in the Aff tree, atm with current talents we are ending up boosting spells and abilities that were rarely going to use or gain benefit from to get to the talents we need. Streamlining the trees would be a much welcomed change for me.
I was daydreaming about something similar earlier this week, though I had it broken up into Afflict (dots), Demo (Pet + shadow DD), and Destro (fire DD). Sprinkle in some "shadow spells act as heals if cast with pet targeted" goofiness.
But its far too late to completely redesign the trees. Heck, even just redesigning the Destro tree to give good, solid paths 1-51 for either shadow OR fire (without having to "waste" points in off damage-type or pvp talents *if you didn't want to*) would be a boon, but one we'll not see.
I fear warlock's core design philosophy of throwing darts at a wall of ideas is in no danger of being corrected.
I wouldn't be that despairing. Many classes, including Warlocks, are still awaiting the thorough once over Blizzard gave Arms/Fury Warriors and Hunters. It might work out that way, but Blizzard has shown that they aren't afraid to make drastic changes. Now that the raid buff shenanigans are complete we can expect to see someone (probably Rogues next) get a good review.
On the mage forum I saw a poster work different specs and came to a dps output.I was wondering if any lock posted it already or could give us a ballpark with the talents they way they are now.
On the mage forum I saw a poster work different specs and came to a dps output.I was wondering if any lock posted it already or could give us a ballpark with the talents they way they are now.
I've seen those numbers, and they are purely theorycrafting. But 5k, 6k, 7k DPS sounds a little bit overboard. I'm not sure where the 3fold increase in DPS is coming from, which lends credence to Kalgan's comment about mages doing twice the dps they are shooting for. I know in Beta, mages, retadins, hunters and DK are all suspected of greatly surpassing the devs DPS expectations. I don't think Blizzard is intending everybody's DPS to increase by a factor of 3 from 70 to 80. End of Naxx v.1 to Karazhan most classes saw a DPS increase of about 200%, some more, some less. I think, but I can't swear, I've seen some theorycrafted numbers for destro locks in the 3k range, but that might have been at level 70. Regardless, when the DPS 'balance' tweaking does get implemented, expect mass QQ on the blizzard boards. Some people will be eating a lot of crow..aka...Deathknights arguing 14k crits in PvP is justified by them being a "hero" class.
I do think WC and scorch is going to get knocked down to 5% though. The amount of crit attainable in WotLk outside of gear seems overboard to me. Casters attaining >50% crit will just destroy classes (priest/affliction lock) that can't benefit from crit, unless you make nukes hit uncrit like fluffy pancakes.
Balance is a going to be a long process because ever after they do their DPS testing, they have to do PvP balancing afterwards. They may not bother balancing PvP until after it goes live, and before the start of S5 in a patch. If they nerf DPS for PvP reasons, then they have to figure out how to compensate for PvE.
Note that Roywyn's estimates are based on the mage having 3000 spell power. A more realistic top-end estimate for Naxx/T7 gear might be 2000 (who knows what T9 or whatever will be like).
It's pointless to look at Roywyn's final DPS figures and go OMG overpowered because 1) as above, the stats (s)he's using are purposefully inflated (in order to more clearly reveal scaling differences) and 2) the DPS balance pass hasn't happened yet.
08/31/08, 11:43 PM
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