Warlock: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 2

UnderbogWarlock · 11/18/08, 2:27 PM

I looked through all the forums I could find, and on all of the blizzard forums as well and couldn't find it. I just recently switched from Priest to Warlock and can't find any type of equations or ratio's for MP5. Are there any In-Combat Mp5 capabilities a warlockhas that I am missing or are there really none?

Ossifrage · 11/18/08, 2:38 PM

Originally Posted by UnderbogWarlock

I looked through all the forums I could find, and on all of the blizzard forums as well and couldn't find it. I just recently switched from Priest to Warlock and can't find any type of equations or ratio's for MP5. Are there any In-Combat Mp5 capabilities a warlockhas that I am missing or are there really none?

Lifetap > Mp5

We have no talents for Mp5 and we don't really need any. My priorities after hit cap:

DMG>HASTE/CRIT>SPIRIT>INT>STAM>Mp5

Byram · 11/18/08, 2:42 PM

Hey all.

I was wondering if anybody knew exactly how all of our talented coefficients (Contagion, Empowered Corruption, EA, Shadow Embrace, SM, Haunt, all that kind of thing with percentage boosts) factored in- additive or multiplicative? I'd always thought multiplicative, similar to threat redux, but recently while leveling my pally I noticed on this character pane that Sanctified Retribution, Crusade, and Vengeance all stacked additively on the damage line (base damage * 114% multiplier with fully stacked Vengeance). This got me thinking about other talents, so does anybody know about warlocks in this regard?

EDIT: Thought I'd post an example.

Let's say we throw a Corruption up that does 1000 base damage, and we have 0 spellpower (not gonna think about empowered Corr yet). Only talents we care about for this are SM, Contagion, and Imp Corruption. That's a 10% increase, a 15% increase, and a 5% increase. Is this 1.1*1.15*1.05= 132.825% boost to damage, or a 10+15+5= 130% boost? Thanks ahead of time.

EDIT 2: NVM Empowered Corruption, that likely works just like S&F, so it's 36% additive to 120% for 156% +dmg coefficient. If this is wrong though, please let me know.

Kazuha · 11/18/08, 5:13 PM

Originally Posted by Byram

Hey all.

I was wondering if anybody knew exactly how all of our talented coefficients (Contagion, Empowered Corruption, EA, Shadow Embrace, SM, Haunt, all that kind of thing with percentage boosts) factored in- additive or multiplicative? I'd always thought multiplicative, similar to threat redux, but recently while leveling my pally I noticed on this character pane that Sanctified Retribution, Crusade, and Vengeance all stacked additively on the damage line (base damage * 114% multiplier with fully stacked Vengeance). This got me thinking about other talents, so does anybody know about warlocks in this regard?

EDIT: Thought I'd post an example.

Let's say we throw a Corruption up that does 1000 base damage, and we have 0 spellpower (not gonna think about empowered Corr yet). Only talents we care about for this are SM, Contagion, and Imp Corruption. That's a 10% increase, a 15% increase, and a 5% increase. Is this 1.1*1.15*1.05= 132.825% boost to damage, or a 10+15+5= 130% boost? Thanks ahead of time.

EDIT 2: NVM Empowered Corruption, that likely works just like S&F, so it's 36% additive to 120% for 156% +dmg coefficient. If this is wrong though, please let me know.

As a warning, all my testing only involved corruption, but it should be consistant across all dots:
The first class of talents consists of Shadow Mastery, Improved Corruption, Contagion. These are all additive.
All other talents provide multiplicative effects. So the overall multiplier on a fully debuffed mob is 1.3*1.03*1.1*1.2.

Also, note that empowered corruption adds a straight 6% of your spellpower per tick, and everlasting affliction adds a straight 5% of your spellpower per tick.

Byram · 11/18/08, 5:21 PM

Originally Posted by Kazuha

As a warning, all my testing only involved corruption, but it should be consistant across all dots:
The first class of talents consists of Shadow Mastery, Improved Corruption, Contagion. These are all additive.
All other talents provide multiplicative effects. So the overall multiplier on a fully debuffed mob is 1.3*1.03*1.1*1.2.

Also, note that empowered corruption adds a straight 6% of your spellpower per tick, and everlasting affliction adds a straight 5% of your spellpower per tick.

So basically passives are additive, while active debuffs (Haunt, CoE, SE, old Misery and Shadow Vuln) are multiplicative with your spell. TY for the quick response =)

Maelstro · 11/18/08, 5:28 PM

Originally Posted by Woggle

For the concern of Incinerate vs. Shadowbolt: As you do not get Emberstorm using a heavy affliction build, Shadowbolt should easily outperform Incinerate. Furthermore, I think it has been proven that Improved Shadowbolt DOES increase DoT damage (check the WOTLK thread for more of the discussion, I think it is valid for reapplication). Feel free to correct me here, if I am mistaken.

the actual buff can be seen here.

imp ISB applies the shadow mastery buff to the mob, which states:
"Shadow damage dealt increased by 10% from non-periodic spells."

if this is wrong, it wouldn't be surprising as that spell's actual debuff and tooltip have been conflicting for a long time now.

Originally Posted by Woggle

As I have already discussed in the WOTLK thread, reapplying Haunt whenever the cooldown is up is NOT the way to go. Haunt has lower DPCT than all DoT-spells (and Shadowbolt, on a sidenote) as long as it is not falling off. The trick is to reapply it just exactly when it runs out or a split second later or earlier. A lot of practice may be needed for that, but it will certainly increase your DPS, as you have to realize that Haunt itself has bad DPCT without factoring the increased DoT damage.

And no, even then you should NEVER interrupt a Shadowbolt cast. Losing one or two un-haunted DoT-ticks is definitely not the end of the world.

shouldn't the 20% on your five different DoTs be factored in anyway? not only because in a lot of cases that 20% represents 200+ damage, but also because that 20% factors into how much your UA and Corruption are going to "crit" for. while yes i'm not going to break a shadow bolt cast to reapply it when it has 4 seconds left, but if for some mental lapse i am casting shadow bolt when Haunt has 2 seconds left, i will break the SB cast and reapply Haunt. of course, best case scenario means you will be reapplying Haunt as closely to it's falling off as possible without sacrificing a single shadow bolt (or DoT tick) - but this, you're right, just comes with playing the spec in a raiding environment for a while.

Originally Posted by Woggle

I am using the glyphs of Siphon Life, Curse of Agony and Corruption. All of those seem to be a better choice than glyph of Immolate.

i reasoned this out after spending some time with Dr. Boom and with the slightly broken test dummies. even in deep affliction, my immolate DoT ticks for more than my siphon life does - about a 100 damage more - and the glyph of immolate increases that immolate DoT by 20%. i just don't see how the siphon life glyph can compare unless it's simply for health regen, or the fact that SL is much easier to get off on the fly.

Originally Posted by Woggle

I am using a 56/0/15 spec too, but without Suppression (having the 3% hit without having Cataclysm is worthless) and having the Aggro reduce.

i wouldn't say Suppression without Cataclysm is worthless in 70 gear, just because getting a resist/miss on a DoT application would be bad for my rotation - and while getting a resist/miss on a shadow bolt would be much more tragic, i'm really feeling like imp ISB and 5/5 ruin are worth it. when i'm hit capped at 80 though, i will most likely move points from suppression and fel conc to soul siphon and imp drain soul.

Trickykid · 11/18/08, 5:55 PM

Originally Posted by Maelstro

shouldn't the 20% on your five different DoTs be factored in anyway? not only because in a lot of cases that 20% represents 200+ damage, but also because that 20% factors into how much your UA and Corruption are going to "crit" for. while yes i'm not going to break a shadow bolt cast to reapply it when it has 4 seconds left, but if for some mental lapse i am casting shadow bolt when Haunt has 2 seconds left, i will break the SB cast and reapply Haunt. of course, best case scenario means you will be reapplying Haunt as closely to it's falling off as possible without sacrificing a single shadow bolt (or DoT tick) - but this, you're right, just comes with playing the spec in a raiding environment for a while.

Without even getting into specific numbers, even if 5 DoTs all tick for +200 (if you want to include crits, call it 240), sacrificing half of a shadow bolt's cast time when shadow bolt does 4-5k (taken from SWP geared level 80 WWS) is a bad move. To make up for that you'd have to do an extra 2,000 damage with your DoTs in that two second window which is pretty unlikely.

Woggle · 11/18/08, 6:57 PM

Originally Posted by Maelstro

the actual buff can be seen here.

imp ISB applies the shadow mastery buff to the mob, which states:
"Shadow damage dealt increased by 10% from non-periodic spells."

if this is wrong, it wouldn't be surprising as that spell's actual debuff and tooltip have been conflicting for a long time now.

I was jsut recalling what I had heared. I know the wording of the buff, but people had done testing on the beta servers. I have not gotten to doing those on live, too much stuff to take care of. Either way, none of the two possibilities would really surprise me.

shouldn't the 20% on your five different DoTs be factored in anyway? not only because in a lot of cases that 20% represents 200+ damage, but also because that 20% factors into how much your UA and Corruption are going to "crit" for. while yes i'm not going to break a shadow bolt cast to reapply it when it has 4 seconds left, but if for some mental lapse i am casting shadow bolt when Haunt has 2 seconds left, i will break the SB cast and reapply Haunt. of course, best case scenario means you will be reapplying Haunt as closely to it's falling off as possible without sacrificing a single shadow bolt (or DoT tick) - but this, you're right, just comes with playing the spec in a raiding environment for a while.

I think that has been answered above. You NEVER EVER want to interrupt a cast. If you made a mistake and started casting Shadowbolt instead of Haunt, finish it. If you do not make mistakes, you will not have to interrupt casts. Either way, it must be a major mistake if all 5 DoTs would have a tick in that gap. Just do not let it happen.

i reasoned this out after spending some time with Dr. Boom and with the slightly broken test dummies. even in deep affliction, my immolate DoT ticks for more than my siphon life does - about a 100 damage more - and the glyph of immolate increases that immolate DoT by 20%. i just don't see how the siphon life glyph can compare unless it's simply for health regen, or the fact that SL is much easier to get off on the fly.

this might actually make sense, though Immolate is the spell you want to cut off first if you have trouble with debuff slots / rotations. I don't know the exact coefficients after the buff, someone might have to do the math. The Glyph of Corruption does not look that well either.

i wouldn't say Suppression without Cataclysm is worthless in 70 gear, just because getting a resist/miss on a DoT application would be bad for my rotation - and while getting a resist/miss on a shadow bolt would be much more tragic, i'm really feeling like imp ISB and 5/5 ruin are worth it. when i'm hit capped at 80 though, i will most likely move points from suppression and fel conc to soul siphon and imp drain soul.

Well, it's not worthless, just worth much less, as you are accepting a potential 3% miss on all Destruction spells (which counts for Immolate too). Either put points in both or none, going deep into one does not make too much sense to me (don't forget about 40-50% of your DPS will be coming from Destruction). Furthermore, getting hit rating is not that hard. There are lots of questrewards and drops with tons of hit on them (i.e. an on-use trinket with 55 hit rating passive). My current spec is the following: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...h=030417000000
Using food with hit rating is actually not bad either in terms of reaching the hit cap.

I am considering using this spec http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...h=030417000000
with the hit talents in both. On bosses without spell pushbacks, fel concentration is not needed and I mentioned aggro reduce above. Dark Pact is not needed necessarily, with a Discipline Priest Dark Pact und Life Tap draw even for me.

Splot · 11/18/08, 8:35 PM

Originally Posted by Woggle

Well, it's not worthless, just worth much less, as you are accepting a potential 3% miss on all Destruction spells (which counts for Immolate too). Either put points in both or none, going deep into one does not make too much sense to me (don't forget about 40-50% of your DPS will be coming from Destruction). Furthermore, getting hit rating is not that hard. There are lots of questrewards and drops with tons of hit on them (i.e. an on-use trinket with 55 hit rating passive).

Using food with hit rating is actually not bad either in terms of reaching the hit cap.

Cataclysm gives a mana cost reduction to destruction spells which may be the only reason to take it at end game for any class. Supression doesn't offer the same benefit and once hit capped (for soulshatter) locks will drop it from their builds. For demo locks I'm not sure the hit rating benefit from the talent would flow through to pets and only the cost reduction should be considered worth while.

I think you'll still see a lot of locks gear swapping and food buff swapping for bosses for quite a while to come in level 80 raiding.

Edit:
Checked my facts after reading a following post and suppression does dp 2% mana reduction per point and would be worth while for that purpose. I sill think that soulshatter will force hard hit capping.

Trickykid · 11/18/08, 8:47 PM

Originally Posted by Splot

Cataclysm gives a mana cost reduction to destruction spells which may be the only reason to take it at end game for any class. Supression doesn't offer the same benefit and once hit capped (for soulshatter) locks will drop it from their builds. For demo locks I'm not sure the hit rating benefit from the talent would flow through to pets and only the cost reduction should be considered worth while.

I think you'll still see a lot of locks gear swapping and food buff swapping for bosses for quite a while to come in level 80 raiding.

Suppression lowers mana cost of affliction spells by 2% per point. Also swapping out 3% hit for non-hit items is probably still a good investment of talents compared to picking up stray points in Eradication or other non-DPS talents.

• dragon12 · 11/19/08, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Woggle

Well, it's not worthless, just worth much less, as you are accepting a potential 3% miss on all Destruction spells (which counts for Immolate too). Either put points in both or none, going deep into one does not make too much sense to me (don't forget about 40-50% of your DPS will be coming from Destruction).

It's not "worth much less". Right now Destruction accounts for approximately ~30% of my damage if I ignore that I'll be using DS below 25% (so in reality it's slightly less than that). Getting 3/3 Suppression is one of the best dps increases you can get for those points if you're not at the hit cap yet, regardless of whether or not you get 3/3 Cataclysm as well. Suppression's worth is not linked to Cataclysm. Going deep into either one increases your dps if you're below the hit cap, how does that not make sense?
All this is also ignoring that if you miss a Haunt, that's a significant dps loss for the downtime.

Originally Posted by Splot

I sill think that soulshatter will force hard hit capping.

This really depends on whether or not threat is a big issue in WotLK raiding. At some point there'll be so much hit going around that it won't be a problem anyway though.

Skellum · 11/19/08, 1:24 PM

From what I've been reading and from gearing myself up, its looking like I want to hit 14+% hit, then to gear myself with items that have spirit+Crit/Haste/Dmg etc. As a stat spirit actualy gives us quite a bit of utility. Decreased downtime from casts, increases our +dmg. All in all its really not a bad stat.

So here is my question. 10% less mana cost on Sbolt or 20% increased Damage from my siphon life glyph. Which has a greater impact on increasing my DPS? I would assume with high spirit from gear and the bonus from the T7 that mana should become nearly a null issue.

oresteez · 11/19/08, 2:15 PM

Hi all,
I've seen a few mentions of this, but never really read anything that was definitive.
Should I hold onto all of my level 70 raiding gear, to fill any hit% gaps at 80? Right now they
aren't needed for leveling, so most of my +hit is now sitting in my bank, as I stockpile +dmg...

Thanks..

Quietvicks · 11/19/08, 2:49 PM

To anyone who's done Gothik the Harvester as affliction: is there any way to not feel useless? Every time I get going on something, it's mostly dead anyway.

Skellum · 11/19/08, 2:58 PM

Originally Posted by Quietvicks

To anyone who's done Gothik the Harvester as affliction: is there any way to not feel useless? Every time I get going on something, it's mostly dead anyway.

Put a summon portal on the opposite side of your gate, DD/Corr dot things and then at the end if they have any left go warp over and kill them.

You get a couple Ooooh and Ahhhh moments for the first few times. Other good demonic circle uses, Thaddius, putting it just outside a door and using it to escape repair bills.

Nicarras · 11/19/08, 3:07 PM

Originally Posted by Skellum

Put a summon portal on the opposite side of your gate, DD/Corr dot things and then at the end if they have any left go warp over and kill them.

You get a couple Ooooh and Ahhhh moments for the first few times. Other good demonic circle uses, Thaddius, putting it just outside a door and using it to escape repair bills.

Or you could put it right on the line of the door and then port between sides to help out each one. For Gothik I was fearing mobs off the healers, that got though and then just spamming Corr and hoping for some NF procs. Also still casting Haunt on CD. Your dots do keep ticking when he switches sides though so make sure that you get all your dots refreshed before he ports over.

Skellum · 11/19/08, 3:30 PM

Originally Posted by Nicarras

Or you could put it right on the line of the door and then port between sides to help out each one. For Gothik I was fearing mobs off the healers, that got though and then just spamming Corr and hoping for some NF procs. Also still casting Haunt on CD. Your dots do keep ticking when he switches sides though so make sure that you get all your dots refreshed before he ports over.

Nice, didnt even think of that, so if you step just a little to either side it pops you through? Or in the middle provides you LoS on both?

Another question, 25% hits. All the dots are up DS goes off. Do I break the DS to refresh the dots or do i hold the DS to completion then refresh them?

Trickykid · 11/19/08, 3:45 PM

Originally Posted by oresteez

Should I hold onto all of my level 70 raiding gear, to fill any hit% gaps at 80? Right now they
aren't needed for leveling, so most of my +hit is now sitting in my bank, as I stockpile +dmg...

Keep it and compare stats the way you would any item. Hit rating is now worth less than half of what it was before - but some of the late BT and SWP gear will still be good until you get a Heroic/Raid upgrade.

Nicarras · 11/19/08, 4:09 PM

Originally Posted by Skellum

Nice, didnt even think of that, so if you step just a little to either side it pops you through? Or in the middle provides you LoS on both?

Another question, 25% hits. All the dots are up DS goes off. Do I break the DS to refresh the dots or do i hold the DS to completion then refresh them?

Allows you to step into either room.

You apply DS in the same manner that you were applying SB for the first 3/4 of the fight. I have yet to see numbers that support not refreshing DoTs when they need refreshed while casting DS. Only exception may be Immo, but I'm not even sure about that.

Evyle · 11/19/08, 4:48 PM

Back when my guild was in SSC we had up to 3 affliction locks in raid and fairly often dots would get knocked off due to the 40 debuff limit. When we were 2/3 thru BT I finally gave up on affliction and went SB spamming spec for greater dps. This spec worked fine all the way thru until 3.0.2 (which we had KJ on farm from about 2-3 months prior).

1. Now I am back to considering affliction for raiding again. For 10 mans I see it working fine as there won't be 40 debuffs on the mob. But --- for a 25 man raid won't our dots just get pushed off like before killing our dps?

2. Anyone have a WWS from live for 10 or 25 mans (just curious where locks are sitting now)

Trickykid · 11/19/08, 5:15 PM

Originally Posted by Evyle

2. Anyone have a WWS from live for 10 or 25 mans (just curious where locks are sitting now)

Wowwebstats.com has top parses by boss for the new instances.

Ossifrage · 11/19/08, 6:38 PM

Originally Posted by Trickykid

Wowwebstats.com has top parses by boss for the new instances.

I don't see anything on wws for lvl 80 content, can someone give a link?

Drakh · 11/19/08, 8:06 PM

Can CoA proc Molten Core ?
Is 0/13/58 still a good destro build or do I need some points in Affl. for Corr to be viable ?
I'm looking for a max dmg destro build, and thinking about 0/13/58.
Thoughts?

Trickykid · 11/19/08, 8:20 PM

Originally Posted by Ossifrage

I don't see anything on wws for lvl 80 content, can someone give a link?

It might only let you search for Naxx bosses at this point, since they existed before and will get picked up. Kel'Thuzad kills, for example: Wow Web Stats. Some of the links connect to other raid bosses though if they are in the same log.

Evyle · 11/19/08, 8:36 PM

Originally Posted by Drakh

Can CoA proc Molten Core ?
Is 0/13/58 still a good destro build or do I need some points in Affl. for Corr to be viable ?
I'm looking for a max dmg destro build, and thinking about 0/13/58.
Thoughts?

COA is the best for molten core as it ticks every 2 seconds I think vs Corruption's every 3 seconds. The problem I have had in the past is still needing to cast COE.

So as heavy destro pre lichking post 3.0.2. I was using 7/3/51 or so for my spec. (improved corruption as i always was able to cast that to get molten core... and nada in coa since i was often on coe).