Warlock: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 4

Trickykid · 11/19/08, 4:15 PM

Originally Posted by Evyle

2. Anyone have a WWS from live for 10 or 25 mans (just curious where locks are sitting now)

Wowwebstats.com has top parses by boss for the new instances.

Ossifrage · 11/19/08, 5:38 PM

Originally Posted by Trickykid

Wowwebstats.com has top parses by boss for the new instances.

I don't see anything on wws for lvl 80 content, can someone give a link?

Drakh · 11/19/08, 7:06 PM

Can CoA proc Molten Core ?
Is 0/13/58 still a good destro build or do I need some points in Affl. for Corr to be viable ?
I'm looking for a max dmg destro build, and thinking about 0/13/58.
Thoughts?

Trickykid · 11/19/08, 7:20 PM

Originally Posted by Ossifrage

I don't see anything on wws for lvl 80 content, can someone give a link?

It might only let you search for Naxx bosses at this point, since they existed before and will get picked up. Kel'Thuzad kills, for example: Wow Web Stats. Some of the links connect to other raid bosses though if they are in the same log.

Evyle · 11/19/08, 7:36 PM

Originally Posted by Drakh

Can CoA proc Molten Core ?
Is 0/13/58 still a good destro build or do I need some points in Affl. for Corr to be viable ?
I'm looking for a max dmg destro build, and thinking about 0/13/58.
Thoughts?

COA is the best for molten core as it ticks every 2 seconds I think vs Corruption's every 3 seconds. The problem I have had in the past is still needing to cast COE.

So as heavy destro pre lichking post 3.0.2. I was using 7/3/51 or so for my spec. (improved corruption as i always was able to cast that to get molten core... and nada in coa since i was often on coe).

Woggle · 11/19/08, 9:12 PM

Originally Posted by dragon12

It's not "worth much less". Right now Destruction accounts for approximately ~30% of my damage if I ignore that I'll be using DS below 25% (so in reality it's slightly less than that). Getting 3/3 Suppression is one of the best dps increases you can get for those points if you're not at the hit cap yet, regardless of whether or not you get 3/3 Cataclysm as well. Suppression's worth is not linked to Cataclysm. Going deep into either one increases your dps if you're below the hit cap, how does that not make sense?
All this is also ignoring that if you miss a Haunt, that's a significant dps loss for the downtime.

Well, your post is from a point of view of not having enough hit. I'm saying, getting 14% hit is an absolut non-issue. I might add that AT LEAST 35 of my damage come off the destruction spells Immolate and Shadowbolt in raids (Naxx 10 man and 25 man, Obsidian Sanctum, the Eye of Eternity) and that can go up to 40% in stand and nuke fights with decent amounts of haste and bloodlust.

And yes, Suppression's worth is certainly linked to Cataclysm. Because getting 3/3 Suppression without 3/3 Cataclysm prevents you from going to the hit cap for destruction spells or makes you waste item budget points on hit that only goes to destruction hit (once you are above 11% overall hit chance). Therefore, these two are clearly linked. I do agree that Suppression is good talent. But it's value is drastically reduced if not taken in combination with Cataclysm. Getting 1/3 Suppression and 1/3 Cataclysm and going to 13% hit is far better if you can do so than taking 3/3 Suppression, 0/3 Cataclysm and staying at 11% hit. And even then, you spent one more point. The key is to get to the hit cap as soon as possible without losing too much of the other stats. But both Crit and Haste lose some of its value for Affliction specs, so most of the time that's a decent tradeoff.

1. Now I am back to considering affliction for raiding again. For 10 mans I see it working fine as there won't be 40 debuffs on the mob. But --- for a 25 man raid won't our dots just get pushed off like before killing our dps?

We were raiding with 3 affliction warlocks and 2 deathknights today. I noted NO debuffs getting pushed off, so the debufflimit seems to be increased by a decent margin.

I don't have WWS as the person normally taking the log has not reached 80 yet. But I was topping the meters on every single boss (spider wing, abomination wing, plague wing) except for Noth where an Unholy Deathknight passed me and Gluth where I died early due to a strange Decimate that did more damage than my max hp at that moment. And my gear is certainly quite crappy. Affliction DPS seems to be very well off, my shadow bolts are hitting almost as hard as with the 0/21/40 spec (crits going up to 9500 with ISB up), just that we now have 5 DoTs rolling aside. I might add that I've not been using DS until now. I have not seen the expected large numbers on the fights I tried it, so I am refraining from using it for now.

Byram · 11/19/08, 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by Woggle

I might add that I've not been using DS until now. I have not seen the expected large numbers on the fights I tried it, so I am refraining from using it for now.

Just as a heads up to anyone who's been having trouble with this, you have to CAST drain soul below 25%, casting it before and having it channel into 25% will not make it tick harder.

PSGarak · 11/20/08, 1:28 AM

Originally Posted by Woggle

And yes, Suppression's worth is certainly linked to Cataclysm. Because getting 3/3 Suppression without 3/3 Cataclysm prevents you from going to the hit cap for destruction spells or makes you waste item budget points on hit that only goes to destruction hit (once you are above 11% overall hit chance). Therefore, these two are clearly linked. I do agree that Suppression is good talent. But it's value is drastically reduced if not taken in combination with Cataclysm. Getting 1/3 Suppression and 1/3 Cataclysm and going to 13% hit is far better if you can do so than taking 3/3 Suppression, 0/3 Cataclysm and staying at 11% hit. And even then, you spent one more point. The key is to get to the hit cap as soon as possible without losing too much of the other stats. But both Crit and Haste lose some of its value for Affliction specs, so most of the time that's a decent tradeoff.

This is from the point of view that hit-capping is a necessity. It's not. Especially for your destruction spells, where it's just a flat loss of damage rather than having the potential to mess up a rotation. Hit is just the cheapest DPS stat per itemization budget point, nothing more. Cataclysm is a good place to spend talent points, especially since the shallow affliction tree is a bit thin on DPS talents. Destruction has no such problem. Cataclysm has around half to two-thirds of the effect that supression does on direct DPCT, has no effect on DoT collision, and competes with better talents than Supression competes against. It is quite possible for cataclysm to be a bad talent and supression to be a good talent simultaneously.

An interesting question is what the value of hit becomes, in terms of damage on items, between 11% and 14% for a 3/3 supression 0/3 warlock, and what the damage gain/loss is in terms of talent and gem swaps. I have open office so I can't tinker with this myself, but my suspicion is that the difference is much narrower than you seem to think.

Just to make this perfectly clear: no magical spell-hit-fairy descends from the sky and awards you a thousand extra DPS on recount the second you hit-cap. It's not necessary. We only stack hit because it's cheap. The hit cap is not a goal, but a breakpoint where this cheap stat becomes worthless. Stop preaching the First Church of Hit Cap.

Anthraxx · 11/20/08, 2:23 AM

Another simple question: what is your priority using Emblems of Heroism?

Offhand and trinket will probably last me longer.
T7 pieces are much bigger upgrade over T6, but in 2 months we'll start giving them to off-specs.

Any thoughts?

LCN · 11/20/08, 4:04 AM

Originally Posted by Anthraxx

Another simple question: what is your priority using Emblems of Heroism?

Offhand and trinket will probably last me longer.
T7 pieces are much bigger upgrade over T6, but in 2 months we'll start giving them to off-specs.

Any thoughts?

Personally I'm going to grab [Ward of the Violet Citadel] first. Then there's a dilemma with [Sundial of the Exiled] and [Plush Sash of Guzbah]. Hit stacking is a priority to a certain point, even with cataclysm and suppression, so the belt seems tempting in that way. The trinket looks very powerful at first gaze, but seeing as it has a 45 second internal cooldown, so with the 10% proc chance on spell landing it's up roughly once a minute. Depending on previous gear the choice is easy. I personally have god awful gear as I re-started playing with a new character shortly before WotLK, but for someone with a T6 belt it's not much of an upgrade. Then again, said persons usually carry the skull or similar trinkets which might lessen the attraction of the trinket too.

Anthraxx · 11/20/08, 5:02 AM

I never had a chance to get a decent trinket. Ended up with [Icon of the Silver Crescent] and [Darkmoon Card: Crusade].
Better luck with belt and offhand though: [Belt of the Malefic] + [Heart of the Pit].

So it seems the trinket would be the biggest upgrade at the moment, but I'm not really convinced.

Pre-3.0 haste/dmg ratio was estimated around 1.2 for destruction builds.

Haste rating / 1% @ 70 = ~15.8
Haste rating / 1% @ 80 = ~32.7

Roughly 2 x worse... Is it safe to assume now that current ratio is ~0.6?

LCN · 11/20/08, 5:45 AM

Originally Posted by Anthraxx

I never had a chance to get a decent trinket. Ended up with [Icon of the Silver Crescent] and [Darkmoon Card: Crusade].
Better luck with belt and offhand though: [Belt of the Malefic] + [Heart of the Pit].

So it seems the trinket would be the biggest upgrade at the moment, but I'm not really convinced.

Pre-3.0 haste/dmg ratio was estimated around 1.2 for destruction builds.

Haste rating / 1% @ 70 = ~15.8
Haste rating / 1% @ 80 = ~32.7

Roughly 2 x worse... Is it safe to assume now that current ratio is ~0.6?

I'd still argue without having the time to do the math and not knowing your other gear that the offhand is a better upgrade and replacing Icon with the trinket. Simply due to the pretty steep hit rating requirements.

Woggle · 11/20/08, 6:51 AM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

This is from the point of view that hit-capping is a necessity. It's not. Especially for your destruction spells, where it's just a flat loss of damage rather than having the potential to mess up a rotation. Hit is just the cheapest DPS stat per itemization budget point, nothing more. Cataclysm is a good place to spend talent points, especially since the shallow affliction tree is a bit thin on DPS talents. Destruction has no such problem. Cataclysm has around half to two-thirds of the effect that supression does on direct DPCT, has no effect on DoT collision, and competes with better talents than Supression competes against. It is quite possible for cataclysm to be a bad talent and supression to be a good talent simultaneously.

And that flat loss of damage is exactly my point. Taking Suppression and not taking Cataclysm is a flat loss of damage if you stay at 11% hit. If you go to 14% hit, you waste points on item budgeting. I do consider your statement about the value of hit between 11% and 14% hit, but my point stands, item points are wasted (not considering the fact of Immolate being part of your "rotation" as well). It's a very conservative point of view and it may be argued, but exactly because hit is cheap, it's easy to stack.

Just to make this perfectly clear: no magical spell-hit-fairy descends from the sky and awards you a thousand extra DPS on recount the second you hit-cap. It's not necessary. We only stack hit because it's cheap. The hit cap is not a goal, but a breakpoint where this cheap stat becomes worthless. Stop preaching the First Church of Hit Cap.

I do agree here. But re-read my post, it says that reaching the Hit Cap is absolutely no problem with quest rewards and heroic drops and therefore is the path to be chosen. Of course, if there is an item with 50 spelldamage versus 20 hit rating, take the one with 50 spelldamage. But there are lots of items around with 50 spelldamage and 30 hit rating vs. 50 spelldamage and 40 haste rating. The choice becomes easier on those (but not obvious, someone might want to calculate which one comes out on top with 3/3 suppression and at 11% hit, that was just a random example).

Just to repeat my point, which I think does not conflict with yours: I am not riding on the "GET TO THE HIT CAP ASAP AND IGNORE ALL OTHER STATS" train, but I'm saying not to underestimate the effect of hit on destruction (and even there, some resists can mess up the rotation, in whatever form it may exist, I don't have one). If you can go to 14% hit, do so and take 0/3 suppression. If you can only reach 11% hit, go ahead and take 3/3 suppression, but taking 3/3 cataclysm in combination with that is very well possible, check this spec: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...h=000000000000
without losing great dps talents in the affliction tree, just some utility (3/3 Fel Concentration is actually quite nice on some boss fights, but still not great as the main part of the casting time comes from destruction). There is no point in staying at 11% hit, 3/3 suppression and 0/3 cataclysm if you can go to 14% hit without dumping 100 spell power. Any random values in between can of course be taken as well, see the balance of stats and rate them accordingly. That's my point, but as said above: hit is cheap and therefore can be taken easily. I think it has been misunderstood a little, in my very first post about this topic, I was replying to some spec in the first post regarding this topic and now it has been drifting off to some direction.

Now, the best solution might be that 53/0/18 spec. You could swap out lots of hit for other stats, if you can, and do not lose any good dps talents. Dark Pact is not worth it any more in my opinion, it's already returning less than Life Tap. It is useful on fights like Loatheb, but it's not necessary in general. Same thing for Fel Concentration on some fights, these talents provide utility at a few points.

On a sidenote, with the changes to the rating conversions, hit rating is not that cheap any more after all, at least compared to spell power.

On another (edited) side note, I was wondering about professions. Enchanting, Jewelcrafting, Leatherworking, Tailoring and even Blacksmithing, as ridiculous as it may sound, are worth consideration. Enchanting provides ring enchants, Jewelcrafting unique gems that are prismatic, Leatherworking bracer enchants, Tailoring cloakenchants (one of which seems to be really really really good for an affliction spec, as the proc is on 'spell dealing damage') and Blacksmithing two additional gem slots. Has anyone done the math, which one comes out on top? My feeling says that Leatherworking may not be worth it, unless they add new drums and I don't know how the cloakenchants work out.

Trickykid · 11/20/08, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by Woggle

On a sidenote, with the changes to the rating conversions, hit rating is not that cheap any more after all, at least compared to spell power.

I edited the spreadsheet to include the new rating conversions and all the ratings took a huge hit, particularly for affliction. Hit is now worth quite a bit less than spell power (I haven't done all my idiot checks on the spreadsheet, but it's saying 38% of 1 spell power). Crit and haste look even worse sitting around 25% of 1 spell power. Unless they change(d) the cost in iLvl for those ratings, spell power looks to be king.

Ossifrage · 11/20/08, 1:17 PM

Originally Posted by Woggle

Now, the best solution might be that 53/0/18 spec. You could swap out lots of hit for other stats, if you can, and do not lose any good dps talents. Dark Pact is not worth it any more in my opinion, it's already returning less than Life Tap. It is useful on fights like Loatheb, but it's not necessary in general. Same thing for Fel Concentration on some fights, these talents provide utility at a few points.

That is what I'll be working with until my gear can catch up to the new cap. One question though, why not move the 2 points from soul siphon to imp DS for the 10% threat? It won't be a major difference but it seems to me that it will help more than soul siphon.