I was wondering about the previously mentioned DS addon as well, actually.
On another note, I've been messing around with the last version of the spreadsheet and am consistently coming up with stat priorities that look something like SP > Haste > Crit > Spirit with Spirit and Crit being fairly close, haste and crit being close, and SP and haste being far apart in relative weight. This is assuming 17% hit, 2k SP, 28% crit, and roughly 10% haste plugged in raid buffed. Can anyone confirm that this is roughly how the stat weights look at early 10-man T7 gear level for Haunt builds?
Edit: I don't know if I'm fully thinking this through (I'm almost positive I'm not). But given the spreadsheet is showing me that SP is almost twice as valuable as crit, and roughly 3 spirit = 1 SP, doesn't that mean 3 Spirit > 2 crit? I'm pretty tired, so I feel as though my logic may be off, but if I'm right that makes spirit (ignoring LT scaling) far more valuable than I imagined. Also, is spirit a cheaper stat on the item budget than crit?
Just to clarify, I understood that spirit was useful for us now, but this makes me see it in a whole new light.
does anyone have the site that lists different gear, and sorts it based on rating you set on 1 spelldmg etc? That was really handy when I played last. I'm really unsure what to go for and what to pass on at this point.
Also has anyone done the math on Extract of Necromatic Power?
In 3.0.2 saw a post that this badge trinket would proc off of fell armor ticks
The Egg of Mortal Essence
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
Requires Level 80
Equip: Increases spell power by 98.
Equip: Your direct healing and heal over time spells have a chance to increase your haste rating by 505 for 10 secs.
Anyone know if that is still true. If so I would say that would be quite nice for an affliction lock compared to the 84 crit / 590 spell one (as the crit does not help a lot, and the 590 spell is on a 45 sec cooldown).
I was wondering about the previously mentioned DS addon as well, actually.
On another note, I've been messing around with the last version of the spreadsheet and am consistently coming up with stat priorities that look something like SP > Haste > Crit > Spirit with Spirit and Crit being fairly close, haste and crit being close, and SP and haste being far apart in relative weight. This is assuming 17% hit, 2k SP, 28% crit, and roughly 10% haste plugged in raid buffed. Can anyone confirm that this is roughly how the stat weights look at early 10-man T7 gear level for Haunt builds?
Edit: I don't know if I'm fully thinking this through (I'm almost positive I'm not). But given the spreadsheet is showing me that SP is almost twice as valuable as crit, and roughly 3 spirit = 1 SP, doesn't that mean 3 Spirit > 2 crit? I'm pretty tired, so I feel as though my logic may be off, but if I'm right that makes spirit (ignoring LT scaling) far more valuable than I imagined. Also, is spirit a cheaper stat on the item budget than crit?
Just to clarify, I understood that spirit was useful for us now, but this makes me see it in a whole new light.
These rankings that you worked to find out are in the commonly agreed upon weightings for stats for affliction. Those first two helping your DPS much more than the others. I'm not sure on exact breakdowns, but your priority system you have made works out very well. Spellpower has always been top dog for an Aff build, and at these early gear levels, I could see it far surpassing all the other stats (save hit) as well.
Haste/Spi gear I tend to ask the healer if they need before I roll/ask for it, as it benefits them more than me usually (there are exceptions). This is the gear that comes in to question overall. All casters can lay claim to it, just hopefully your guild manages a good way to get it to the right people to help the guild progress.
I would rank Spirit higher that Crit for Aff though. Pandemic is working...but still seems broken, and you are still LT for quite a bit as aff.
At a minimum, 100 Spirit = 33 Spellpower (don't forget Kings), 44 with Demonic Aegis. That doesn't include the life tap bonus, just pure spellpower.
Don't forget about Int either, 3.3 Int is roughly the same amount of Crit as 1 Crit Rating.
It's easy to ignore those two stats when evaluating items, but they both carry a lot of weight, especially when upgrading from Level 70 gear, as the new gear often seems light on damage stats but will be heavy on base stats. Be sure to include them when using item comparison tools.
In 3.0.2 saw a post that this badge trinket would proc off of fell armor ticks
The Egg of Mortal Essence
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
Requires Level 80
Equip: Increases spell power by 98.
Equip: Your direct healing and heal over time spells have a chance to increase your haste rating by 505 for 10 secs.
Anyone know if that is still true. If so I would say that would be quite nice for an affliction lock compared to the 84 crit / 590 spell one (as the crit does not help a lot, and the 590 spell is on a 45 sec cooldown).
It still works. The proc is a little uncontrollable in that if you are topped off, it won't work, and it might proc at inconvenient times as well.
Why would you ever want to break a dps spell anyway? Or is there something about DS im unaware of?
It's a channeled spell, that's about it. If you break a casted spell early, you lose all the cast time you spent on that spell, and if you add that lost time to the cast time of your next spell, its DPCT is never favorable. With a channeled spell, this principle goes out the window: you only lose the time since your last *tick*. If you break DS right on the 3 (6, 9...)-second mark, you lose nothing in DPCT. You burn some mana, that's it.
Couple this with the fact that DS isn't better than shadowbolt unless Haunt is up. Note also, DS is a 15-second channel. That's a long fucking time. You will have to restart almost your entire rotation. So, breaking your DS to refresh DoTs ends up being a net win. The play on it is actually excruciatingly precise though, you have to break your DS as close as possible after a tick without undercutting, and unlike the spell-queue stuff, if you mess up you lose. It resembles the spellstop macro + quartz we lived with for forever.
I'm very suspicious of simulationcraft's valuations of stats at the moment. For Haunt it values +hit more than +spelldamage; with the ratings having decayed so much since 70 this seems very odd.
It still works. The proc is a little uncontrollable in that if you are topped off, it won't work, and it might proc at inconvenient times as well.
Do you actually have the trinket on Live now? Have you tested it with Fel Synergy?
I spent over an hour playing with [Scarab of the Infinite Cycle] which seems to have an identical proc mechanism (though the amount has been nerfed on live). I was hoping it would proc from Fel Synergy, but I never got even one proc from either that or Fel Armor. Now it's possible there is a diminished chance due to the lower level, but it seems unlikely considering I didn't get even one proc in that entire time.
Originally Posted by dragon12
I'm very suspicious of simulationcraft's valuations of stats at the moment. For Haunt it values +hit more than +spelldamage; with the ratings having decayed so much since 70 this seems very odd.
The ratings have decayed, but the amounts of spellpower and base damage that everyone has have gone up, offsetting a large part of the decay.
So is imp. soul leech still really crappy and do destro locks still have serious mana issues? I know there was one point in beta where the talent was sufficient, but I don't remember what it was.
I like the idea of levelling as destro, but not if it isn't far better mana-wise than it was in TBC.
Do you actually have the trinket on Live now? Have you tested it with Fel Synergy?
I spent over an hour playing with [Scarab of the Infinite Cycle] which seems to have an identical proc mechanism (though the amount has been nerfed on live). I was hoping it would proc from Fel Synergy, but I never got even one proc from either that or Fel Armor. Now it's possible there is a diminished chance due to the lower level, but it seems unlikely considering I didn't get even one proc in that entire time.
The ratings have decayed, but the amounts of spellpower and base damage that everyone has have gone up, offsetting a large part of the decay.
Yes, I have it and it works on Live with Fel Armor ticks. I haven't had a chance to test it with Fel Synergy though.
Assuming you don't pick up Dark Pact & have a Disc. Priest in the raid. Would it be more dps to put 1pt into Demonic Power & use a Succubus over a Fel Hunter?
Assuming you don't pick up Dark Pact & have a Disc. Priest in the raid. Would it be more dps to put 1pt into Demonic Power & use a Succubus over a Fel Hunter?
The spreadsheet answers that for you.
(For affliction specs it says no, even with 2 points in Demonic Power.)
Originally Posted by Zeln
I'm pretty sure the only reason you're on this planet is the phone rang and startled your dad.
I'd still like to know whether you plan on creating a list of/a thread concerning entry level (pre)raid equipment for different specs, and if and how one can contribute to that, or if the whole subject is not a matter to be discussed in this forum.
This would cover an outline of crafted/pre Wrath/honour/etc equipment.
I'm hesitating to ask, for it does not concern endgame discussion directly.
If this *is* considered as a stupid rather than a simple question, please send a personal message and I will correct my post.
I'd still like to know whether you plan on creating a list of/a thread concerning entry level (pre)raid equipment for different specs, and if and how one can contribute to that, or if the whole subject is not a matter to be discussed in this forum.
This would cover an outline of crafted/pre Wrath/honour/etc equipment.
I'm hesitating to ask, for it does not concern endgame discussion directly.
If this *is* considered as a stupid rather than a simple question, please send a personal message and I will correct my post.
Creative use of filters on any of the item-database sites (wowhead, thott, lootrank, etc) will let you get all of this. Bookmark that page and you're set.
In TBC, +hit was the priority because +hit was the cheapest stat, not because it was the “best” stat. Other arguments for hit capping were to cap soul shatter as we were threat capped, which is no longer the case.
It seems on viewing the gear that the itemization formula has changed with respect to hit/crit/and haste. Previously 1 pt of each cost roughly the same in itemization points, but now it seems that 1% of each is what’s costing the same (roughly).
Here are some examples from ilevel 200 gear (excluding tier gear and items with mp5):
(wowhead is the source of all the info here)
Item Sta Int Spi SP % Hit % Crit % haste Socket
ebonwaeave gloves 49 66 77 1.56
gloves of dark gestures 49 52 50 68 0.76 1R
Gloves of glistening runes 49 51 44 68 0.78 1R
spellweave gloves 48 39 77 1.98%
Looking at the direct comparisons, its pretty clear hit and haste cost almost exactly the same for 1%, with crit costing slightly more (but nowhere near the almost double it cost vs. hit in TBC).
I guess my point here is to challenge the assumption that we should always go for +hit first. This was true, but not b/c hit is inherently a better stat: it was true because hit was a significantly cheaper stat.
If hit is no longer cheaper, then to justify a “hit cap first” approach to gearing, it would need to be demonstrated that hit is inherently better. I don’t think this has been done, but would love to hear discussion on both sides.
It does still seem clear that gemming for hit until cap is still the most efficient, as gems seem to go by the “old” TBC itemization formula where 1pt hit = 1pt haste = 1pt crit.
Sorry for the long post, but I am trying to challenge the conventional wisdom, which I am starting to believe is dated at this point. I also apologize if this is too long for the simple questions/simple answers thread. It didn’t seem appropriate for the spec thread.
edit: gah, I don't know how to make the formatting work. It looks fine in my post pre-view screen. Hopefully some of you will bear with me and understand the data enought to see my point.
1% Hit is still going to be worth more damage wise than 1% Crit.
Why?
1% hit is 1% of your total damage.
Crit is
a) dependent on your hit. So 1% Crit with 99% hit rating is really .99% real crit chance.
b) Only increases your damage by [real crit chance]*.4*your damage
Hit is still the better stat because it carries over to pets & missing on spells like Haunt is not an option. Spell damage does seem to be the best pure dps stat now followed by hit, haste, crit & spirit.
1% Hit is still going to be worth more damage wise than 1% Crit.
Why?
1% hit is 1% of your total damage.
Crit is
a) dependent on your hit. So 1% Crit with 99% hit rating is really .99% real crit chance.
b) Only increases your damage by [real crit chance]*.4*your damage
This ignores procs on crits and meta-gems all of which increase effective value of crit, so I don't think this a complete analysis by any stretch. It also ignores the effect of +hit talents, which for many builds will apply to some, but not all of the spells in their rotations.
Using your example (and even ignoring proc potential), the math is really 1.03 * .99 = 1.02 (slight rounding)...so your example actually proves the opposite of what you intend it to. Either way, not considering the entire picture is what keeps people stuck on the conventional wisdom.......remember when everyone said that UA would always be better than ruin? That didn't turn out to be so true either.
Akj said:
"Hit is still the better stat because it carries over to pets & missing on spells like Haunt is not an option. Spell damage does seem to be the best pure dps stat now followed by hit, haste, crit & spirit."
I'll address the two points you made:
-Hit carrying over to pets is not more or less of a reason to stack hit, for any build. It just keeps the proportions even between builds that use pets to dps and those that don't. In other words, FG builds suffered in TBC because 1/4 of its dps did not benefit from +hit. You could be at 202 and not be hit capped. scaling hit on pets in WotlK doesn't give you any gains for hit, it just took away the penalty that using a pet implied previously.
-Missing on Haunt may be "bad", but "not an option" is an argument that requires empirical data to support it. Even if we assume that you're correct, hit cap for haunt is only 10% from gear for alliance, 11% for horde. You will have 10% almost by default and could easily reach it through gear you'll get anyway + gems and enchants. So even if your statement is true, it only is really arguing effectively for 10 or 11% hit. That wasn't really the conventional wisdom I was questioning.
11/24/08, 6:07 AM
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