I was trying to give a general idea of why crit wouldn't be as effective.
Using your example (and even ignoring proc potential), the math is really 1.03 * .99 = 1.02 (slight rounding)...so your example actually proves the opposite of what you intend it to. Either way, not considering the entire picture is what keeps people stuck on the conventional wisdom.......remember when everyone said that UA would always be better than ruin? That didn't turn out to be so true either.
Is not true. Losing that 1% crit doesn't mean you lose the hit entirely. That's what hit % is for. It means you lose the extra damage of it being a crit. Thus it is really, .4*.0099 (a reminder that you can't multiply %'s without converting to decimals...)
And what is this conventional wisdom you're questioning? That hit is worth more than any other stat? The only 'conventional wisdom' I know about hit is that it is worth more damage point by point than crit or haste until cap. That cap changes based on your raid composition and build, but that has always been the case. And is still true even if rating point value has changed to percentage based, as I had shown in my previous post by generic explanation.
Also, for clarification sake. What crit-proc based things are you talking about? I thought I was just unfamiliar with the destruction tree, which is true since I know Affliction much better, but I just went through the tree and did not see anything. Additionally, neither of your additional points can negate the very fact that crit is dependent on hit for locks. We can't crit if we don't hit.
PS: I wasn't aware that Ruin was better than UA now?
The hit cap is just a simple rule that is easy to point people towards when they don't want to do a more detailed analysis using a spreadsheet or simulation. It's pretty safe to assume that most of the users of this forum understand that you don't sacrifice tons of stats simply to the altar of the great hit cap gods. However, it should be added that now that it is possible to completely remove spell miss from the table, spell hit becomes increasingly more valuable the closer you get to the cap, whereas in the past with a permanent 1% miss it became increasingly less valuable as it approached that point.
However, you can't compare 1% of hit to 1% of crit when it comes to gear. Crit Rating is 75% more expensive per point than Hit Rating is, just as it always has been. Unless the value of hit is significantly diminished based on your particular gear setup, it will always be a more worthwhile stat than crit or haste. At current gear levels it may not necessarily be a better stat than spellpower, but it's a pretty safe assumption that it is. The rule of thumb to aim for the hit cap still stands as it always has. Of course, if you're gearing based on simple rules of thumb, you're never going to be as optimized as someone who understands things on a larger level.
However, you can't compare 1% of hit to 1% of crit when it comes to gear. Crit Rating is 75% more expensive per point than Hit Rating is, just as it always has been.
My point was that the item point relationship seems to have changed....i grant that the formatting of my examples in the original post made this hard to see. Crit no longer appears to be that much more expensive any longer (i have only extensively looked at all the ilevel 200 loot at this point). Wowhead (with its convenient "X% @lvl 80" next to all the combat ratings) makes this easy to see. If you read my first post and didn't understand that I apologize and wish I had been more clear.
edit for rutiene:
"Also, for clarification sake. What crit-proc based things are you talking about?"
-specifically improved shadowbolt, for the various builds that still use it for more than glyph-procs
-improved Demonic Tactics to a lesser extent, for DP uptime in 50pt demonology build variants.
"PS: I wasn't aware that Ruin was better than UA now?"
I was referring to the late-TBC situation in full BT gear where a 40/0/21 build became demonstrably better than 41/0/20.
Hit is not so simple, in ways that can change the 1% hit = 1% dps valuation alot:
- If your fillers miss 1% of the time, you lose 1% of filler dps.
- If your dots miss 1% of the time, ypu just recast the dot, and end up losing some filler time. Since dot dpct is so much better than filler dpct, this isn't exactly horrible.
To take an extreme example, in an affliction build, dpct of dots is very, very (very!) roughly 3, normalized to the dpct of shadow bolt. If a dot misses, you lose merely 1 * 1.5 secs = 1.5 damage done by the fraction of a shadow bolt you couldn't cast, rather than the full 3 * 1.5 secs = 4.5 damage that the dot does. So 1% miss on dots causes you to lose just 1% * (1.5/4.5) = 0.33% dps from dots.
It seems like the more a build relies on dots, the more the value of 1% hit changes from the perfect 1% to an anemic 0.33%. Of course even affliction has filler, so you never, ever reach 0.33%. (Ex: 1% * 40%[filler+haunt dps] + 0.33% * 60%[dots dps] = ~0.6% dps from 1% hit).
And there's still Haunt resists to account for, and loss of dot uptime to account for.
Ahh definitely agreed that Hit is used to not be as important to Affliction locks as Destruction locks. Again, my post was not meant to be exact in terms of theorycrafting, but giving a general idea. What I said is definitely less true the more DoTs you have in your build. But Haunt has become an essential part of Affliction dps with a 20% increase to our damage. And its not just something you can 'recast' if it misses.
My point was that the item point relationship seems to have changed....i grant that the formatting of my examples in the original post made this hard to see. Crit no longer appears to be that much more expensive any longer (i have only extensively looked at all the ilevel 200 loot at this point). Wowhead (with its convenient "X% @lvl 80" next to all the combat ratings) makes this easy to see. If you read my first post and didn't understand that I apologize and wish I had been more clear.
The relative cost of crit compared to hit is the same at level 80 as it was at level 70: 22.09 vs 12.62 at 70, 45.91 vs 26.23 at 80, roughly 75% more expensive, both stats scaled up equally, as did all others. What you are seeing on gear is something I have noticed as well, a lot of the Hit gear has fewer item points spent on Hit than the Crit gear has spent on Crit. Those other item points are generally getting put into base stats.
So if you compare for example [Gloves of Dark Gestures] with [Gloves of Glistening Runes] you are getting nearly the same amount of both stats, as a percentage. While you do gain a bit of spirit on the Gloves with Hit, it isn't an equal amount of item points (6 spirit and 1 int but 11 less hit, resulting in 4 points lost, plus a worse socket bonus). Either the Hit items are underitemized, or they may have slightly increased the itemization cost of Hit, but not the rating.
Just a quick question about my demons. Does my Imps fireball count as a Destruction spell or a Demonology spell? I ask because I want to figure out how much spell hit I need for my pets to never miss.
Just a quick question about my demons. Does my Imps fireball count as a Destruction spell or a Demonology spell? I ask because I want to figure out how much spell hit I need for my pets to never miss.
Your +hit *talents* don't improve the imp's, to my understanding, as they improve *your* spells' hit chances (the pet talents adjust cast times or cooldowns, but not +hit). So 17% hit from gear is what you would need.
The relative cost of crit compared to hit is the same at level 80 as it was at level 70: 22.09 vs 12.62 at 70, 45.91 vs 26.23 at 80, roughly 75% more expensive, both stats scaled up equally, as did all others. What you are seeing on gear is something I have noticed as well, a lot of the Hit gear has fewer item points spent on Hit than the Crit gear has spent on Crit. Those other item points are generally getting put into base stats.
So if you compare for example [Gloves of Dark Gestures] with [Gloves of Glistening Runes] you are getting nearly the same amount of both stats, as a percentage. While you do gain a bit of spirit on the Gloves with Hit, it isn't an equal amount of item points (6 spirit and 1 int but 11 less hit, resulting in 4 points lost, plus a worse socket bonus). Either the Hit items are underitemized, or they may have slightly increased the itemization cost of Hit, but not the rating.
Yes, you and I are in agreement. We're saying the same thing, just a bit differently (which is good - perhaps some will read the way you wrote it and understand what i was getting at). Based upon this observation, i'm trying to understand if the "hit until cap is the most efficient way to increase dps" adage is still true. It may very well be, but i think its also possible that its not, and even more importantly, the answer may be much more build-dependent than it was previously.
The Haunt argument is somewhat convincing (even without empirical support) for an affliction build becuase of its dramatic impact on 4 other spells and its cooldown preventing recast. But its only convincing in so far as you should keep suppression and go for cap through gems and buffs (i'd say enchants also but i haven't looked at the full scope to determine relative value yet tbh). Otherwise, I think I'd lean toward balance between haste/hit/crit earlier than i did in TBC.
For those who are saying Spellpower is still king, I absolutely agree. It was even with or slightly ahead of haste (depending on whose calculations you believe) in Sunwell. Combat ratings have doubled since sunwell, spellpower has only gone up by about 1/3 (in my mind im thinking about 1500 SP self buffed in SWP, 2000-ish with a decent amount of 200/213 epic gear). I would be shocked if spellpower isn't well ahead of the other stats at this point.
Simple question thread, so a simple question it shall be - Has anyone come with any relative stat weights for each stat in comparison with spell damage, for each spec?
Would love the answer to this so i can atleast have a rough idea of the gear aim of each spec.
Simple question thread, so a simple question it shall be - Has anyone come with any relative stat weights for each stat in comparison with spell damage, for each spec?
Would love the answer to this so i can atleast have a rough idea of the gear aim of each spec.
You can work this out in the spread sheet for where you are at now. Put in your stats with your gear and it will show you the value of the next point. It changes based on what each of the stats are currently at.
My point was that the item point relationship seems to have changed....i grant that the formatting of my examples in the original post made this hard to see. Crit no longer appears to be that much more expensive any longer (i have only extensively looked at all the ilevel 200 loot at this point). Wowhead (with its convenient "X% @lvl 80" next to all the combat ratings) makes this easy to see. If you read my first post and didn't understand that I apologize and wish I had been more clear.
edit for rutiene:
"Also, for clarification sake. What crit-proc based things are you talking about?"
-specifically improved shadowbolt, for the various builds that still use it for more than glyph-procs
-improved Demonic Tactics to a lesser extent, for DP uptime in 50pt demonology build variants.
"PS: I wasn't aware that Ruin was better than UA now?"
I was referring to the late-TBC situation in full BT gear where a 40/0/21 build became demonstrably better than 41/0/20.
One rating costs one rating. That's the point of rating. The question that you're asking about is the conversion rate of rating to %. http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-c...gs_level_80_a/
I don't know how in the hell you're deriving this idea that the relationships have at all changed. Are you looking at how the item design team has chosen to spread the points around? That has nothing to do with relative expense. If the crit on an item without hit were converted to hit, it would be a damage increase (if the item already had hit, maybe not). That was true before, it's still true now.
Personally I would recomend hit-capping Haunt in an affliction build, as that has cascading effects. It's the only thing related to hit I would consider "important" and even then I wouldn't bend over backwards for it. Haunt uptime increases the value of hit by about 10-15%, since you lose 20% of your DoT damage on a missed Haunt. Not the end of the world, but it changes the waiting a little bit.
One rating costs one rating. That's the point of rating. The question that you're asking about is the conversion rate of rating to %.
No, its not. I'm quite familiar with the conversions to %.
Originally Posted by PSGarak
I don't know how in the hell you're deriving this idea that the relationships have at all changed. Are you looking at how the item design team has chosen to spread the points around? That has nothing to do with relative expense.
I am looking at the way the points are spread, and it has everything to do with relative expense.
Actually, no one knows what the itemization formula is or what the relationship is between points for each stat. We have educated guesses. These are available on wowwiki, and yes, I've looked at it. I can't find it, but Ghostcrawler said in a recent blue post that their itemization formula was one thing they would definitely never disclose. We also have no reason to say we know that it hasn't changed from TBC.
First, hello every Warlocks on this forum, this is my first reply, i'm really happy about all the things i learn there.
I must apologize for my english, i'm a french dude, and i will do my best to write as well as possible, feel free to say when i do mistakes.
My first simple question is, when mobs are below 30% with Death Embrace 3/3, do you think it's the best choise to use SS, Improved Drain Soul or spam SB with my DoTs refresh ?
I've read lots of replies, for and against Drain Soul, and i'm a little lost, Soul Siphon isn't stronger than DS correct ?
What's kind of DPS should I be working towards on fights like Patchwerk in both 10-man and 25-man encounters? I'm currently hovering somewhere around 3500 with a standard Affliction build in 10-man Naxx but I've seen some WWS parses with locks hovering around 5k DPS.
edit: One more question, is it worth more for me to cast CoA in a 10-man raid or to cast CotE if I'm the only lock?
Thanks for this fast answer, that's exactly what i was asking.
In my mind i was in the case that the mob is full DoT and doing dps with SB, then i reach 30%, and to be honest i was wondering if i'd better canalise Soul Life or i rather Drain Soul for the best damages.
You linked a french sample... I'll help on this one as I guess most of EJ users will have some headache trying to translate, (Edit: they still appear in english, nevermind).
Imp Drain Soul is not needed. It won't add to your DPS and is more a pexing talent. Threat should not be a problem nowadays.
Dark Pact: Life Tap is better.
Imp FelHunter: 1 point is enough so that it never goes OoM.
Grim Reach: 1 point? You don't have the equivalent in Destro... Try to get some other talent instead in my opinion.
For the rest... Some are still under mathematical modelization for comparison.
Great, people here are so nice, and reply so fast, sounds good to me, so if i understand everything, we have clean Naxx 25 two days ago i was not that bad on each encounters, finish 3rd on Patch with almost blue gears.
Sorry about asking for much details but according to some replies, DS is better than SB when mob is under 30% life.
About imp Felhunter, i was thinking that his buff were helpful so that's why i put 2 points on it.
Do you think that Ruin is a must have when playing Affliction ?
Not taking Imp DS doesn't prevent you to use it! Read the tool tip carefully, it just returns some mana when you kill the target and lower your threat...
Affliction relies now on Critics as well, feel free to use the spreadsheet to see how it affects your global DPS. The better gear you get and the more you crit, especially with the load of Intelligence you get now through itemization. So yes, Ruin is quiet sexy.
I really think it's too early to say what is the best Talent Tree, though we tend to have some better overview now.
People are referring to the spreadsheet over and over, but I don't think it's close to accurate for WotLK yet. I've used both SimulationCraft and the spreadsheet with the same stats etc and have got vastly different results for rating equivalencies.
11/25/08, 5:55 PM
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