PVE Spec Discussion - Page 19

blgdinger · 12/23/08, 3:38 AM

Originally Posted by Mindaika

So I've been looking at something like this, mainly because:

Ruin affects something like 6% of an Affliction lock's damage [20% crit rate, SB makes up around 30% of our damage]
ISB is even worse: We only get the full benefit of it when we have a crit, followed by 4 more SBs, which as an affliction lock, isn't that common, especially since the chance of that happening works out to something like .2^5 anyway.

Anyway, I don't have simcraft running, so if someone wanted to compare numbers on that the the classic, it would be MUCH appreciated.

My shadowbolt is about 21% unbuffed. The 2piece bonus, according to WWS, is used for 90% of my shadowbolts. Add in raid buffs, it's 36% easily imo. This is sketchy napkin math but I think a spell doing 30% of our damage doing 10% more damage (crit or not) is still important.

Originally Posted by Affe

I ran a variant of the build suggested through SimCraft, and it was as I recall 200-300 dps higher than the "standard" affliction spec. I am currently formating my computer (damn vista eating fps in wow), so I dont have the exact numbers, but it is better if you ask SimCraft. And why wouldn't it be? Its basically moving non-critical talent points that gives a major buff to the imp.

edit:

with:

#
# imp/aff Warlock
#
warlock=Warlock_53_3_14
level=80
talents=http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=IfxMbzMAoVi0IstcZVMGM
actions=flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=tender_shoveltusk_steak/spell_stone/fel_armor/summon_pet,imp
actions+=/haunt,debuff=1/curse_of_agony/corruption/unstable_affliction/siphon_life
actions+=/shadow_bolt,shadow_trance=1/drain_soul,target_pct=25/immolate/shadow_bolt/life_tap
chaotic_skyflare=1
# Glyphs
glyph_imp=1
glyph_immolate=1
glyph_siphon_life=1
# Pets
pet=imp
actions=fire_bolt
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1
quiet=1
active=owner
# Throw in a pair of Paladins.......  Eventually these static parms will be replaced with real actors.
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1

A note is that the Warlock_56_0_15 uses CoA glyph which is inferior to immolate glyph. But I would conclude that this spec wins. Pets doesn't scale well, so at some point 56/0/15 would beat it.
Also pet survivability is an issue. At some fights no pet survives for long, and then that would be 5 wasted talentpoints.

Your meter thing is wrong. Alone, using CoE is still ~300 more dps than CoA. makes sense because 13% more damage from ~2900-3000 dps and going up to 3200-3300 dps on a dummy is proof!

Originally Posted by Mystearica

Chaotic is still the best meta gem, even for affliction.

I am going to have to strongly disagree.

Affe · 12/23/08, 7:02 AM

Originally Posted by blgdinger

Your meter thing is wrong. Alone, using CoE is still ~300 more dps than CoA. makes sense because 13% more damage from ~2900-3000 dps and going up to 3200-3300 dps on a dummy is proof!

There is the moonkin debuff up, so CoE would be wasted. And SimulationCraft is not a meter thing.

Mindaika · 12/23/08, 9:49 AM

Originally Posted by blgdinger

My shadowbolt is about 21% unbuffed. The 2piece bonus, according to WWS, is used for 90% of my shadowbolts. Add in raid buffs, it's 36% easily imo. This is sketchy napkin math but I think a spell doing 30% of our damage doing 10% more damage (crit or not) is still important.

I actually got SimCcraft running on this, and 56/0/15 does come out ahead of 53/13/5, although not by much (~100-150DPS). However, 53/13/5 was coming out ahead of the other builds, at least with my gear. So, although not the BEST build, it does at least appear to be a viable build for those wanting to run Affliction.

Emolate · 12/23/08, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by blgdinger

I am going to have to strongly disagree.

Then the burden is on you to prove it.

That Meta is the top DPS meta. What were you going to use instead?

Karmy · 12/23/08, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Affe

[Ember Skyflare Diamond] beats the [Chaotic Skyflare Diamond] as affliction if you run it through SimCraft. And it comes as no surprise as 25 SP is more than twice as good as 21 crit rating, and the 3% increased critical damage does not affect pandemic (afaik). Nevertheless we are talking small numbers, 5-10 dps.

Does this include the Spell power gained from not needing blue gems to meet the Chaotic req? I find that using the ember skyflare is really more like a 45sp gain when you flip your 2 blue/purple gems to runed reds.

♦ Blacksen · 12/23/08, 2:03 PM

Originally Posted by Emolate

Then the burden is on you to prove it.

That Meta is the top DPS meta. What were you going to use instead?

Uhhh, Ember?

3% Crit doesn't apply to Pandemic, or Haunt.... Just Shadowbolt.

Mindaika · 12/23/08, 2:27 PM

Originally Posted by Blacksen

Uhhh, Ember?

3% Crit doesn't apply to Pandemic, or Haunt.... Just Shadowbolt.

Ember should apply to Haunt, as well as the initial immolate damage. A crit is still a crit. Pandemic though, is not a crit.

Edit for just plain wrong: Ruin is Destruction only.

cynics · 12/23/08, 2:56 PM

Originally Posted by Viralrush

Here's what I've put together as a possible spec allowing us to break higher into the 5000 DPS range.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

You'd be using an imp (of course) in conjunction with CoA, Immolate, and SL glyphs.
It's also a possibility to swap out the CoA glyph for an Imp glyph, although I'm not sure if this would be a DPS increase or not.

I'll be sure to try this on Patchwerk this week, let me know what you guys think, it's possible that this might have some merit.

For some fights i could see this as a DPS increases but there are quite a few fights that imp even raid buffed just doesn't last. having to use HF for 2 ticks to get the imp full again is kinda rough even if you are timing it as your filler.

Most fights are not like patch work and it baffles me why that is the standard, the majority of Naxx you are not static and usually dealing with some kind of gimmick.

Originally Posted by Karmy

Does this include the Spell power gained from not needing blue gems to meet the Chaotic req? I find that using the ember skyflare is really more like a 45sp gain when you flip your 2 blue/purple gems to runed reds.

That would only affect people who are not JC, and with the current state of professions JC is far superior than any other profession for the fact that 3 prismatic will activate any meta. Also items with blue gem bonuses will be activated when using a prismatics. (i.e. [Wyrmrest Necklace of Power] with+32 Spell Damage)

However if you did have to gem [Purified Twilight Opal] then yes it woudl be better to gem [Ember Skyflare Diamond].

Nagillion · 12/23/08, 10:54 PM

At what point should you drop infernal to optimize it?

Also, how do you 5.5kdps + glyph? Do you use the immolate glyph and do you use molten core? Is immolate worth it while filling with souldrain instead of sb?

Anthraxx · 12/24/08, 7:57 AM

I'm using THIS spec and to be honest I have threat issues during many fights.

Considering the fact my gear is far from end-game I assume it will only get worse.

Is affli playable w/o -threat talents? Are these tank TPS problems? With random trinket proc I can't really control burst damage. I try to shatter as late as possible but I'm back on top in no time.

I'm considering swaping some gear to get 2% more hit and go THIS spec. But this will be cost quite a lot of spell power and I'd love to resolve the problem differently.

Any tips?

DiamondTear · 12/24/08, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Nagillion

At what point should you drop infernal to optimize it?

Also, how do you 5.5kdps + glyph? Do you use the immolate glyph and do you use molten core? Is immolate worth it while filling with souldrain instead of sb?

Drop it one minute from the end of the fight.

Neither the immolate glyph or molten core will make you do 5.5k+ dps. But you should have them.

Originally Posted by Anthraxx

Is affli playable w/o -threat talents? Are these tank TPS problems? With random trinket proc I can't really control burst damage. I try to shatter as late as possible but I'm back on top in no time.

Those are tank TPS problems. Only time you should even need to use SS is on Malygos by getting lucky with sparks.

Yinchie · 12/24/08, 11:44 AM

What about other encounters?
I seem to catch up tanks threat/tps in no time.

So atm bit limited in DPS because of TPS issues.

imtsensational · 12/24/08, 5:26 PM

Originally Posted by Yinchie

What about other encounters?
I seem to catch up tanks threat/tps in no time.

So atm bit limited in DPS because of TPS issues.

I can totally relate. I find myself often needing to forgo shadowbolts towards the later half of a fight since SS is on CD and I'm riding the tank's threat. Guess a lot of affliction locks are having this problem?

krilz · 12/24/08, 5:48 PM

I think it depends a bit on how you start the fight. The only real fight where I always end up higher than the tank is on Malygos but for other encounters if I start up with Corruption, CoA, SL (while running in) before doing the usual routine of SB, Haunt I never go past the tank.

But of course, gear and skill could be a factor here as well, on both ends.

DiamondTear · 12/24/08, 6:14 PM

Originally Posted by Yinchie

What about other encounters?
I seem to catch up tanks threat/tps in no time.

So atm bit limited in DPS because of TPS issues.

I don't even look at omen on other encounters when our MT is tanking.

Melbuframa · 12/24/08, 7:42 PM

Originally Posted by imtsensational

I can totally relate. I find myself often needing to forgo shadowbolts towards the later half of a fight since SS is on CD and I'm riding the tank's threat. Guess a lot of affliction locks are having this problem?

The only fight where I have threat issues is Heigen. Any other fight where the tank is always on the boss there isn’t an issue.

I see that simcraft was run again with some other specs, id like to see 53/1/17 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft modeled by someone more familiar with simcraft then I.

Turbo Moses · 12/24/08, 8:14 PM

Make sure your Soulshatter's are worthwhile and you shouldn't have a problem most the time, a salvation can help a lot too, but the only fights I get threat problems are Heigan and Malygos.

Nnayr · 12/24/08, 9:00 PM

Yes, i have threat issues as well. i often call out for hand of salvs.

Spellia · 12/25/08, 6:57 PM

I can totally relate. I find myself often needing to forgo shadowbolts towards the later half of a fight since SS is on CD and I'm riding the tank's threat. Guess a lot of affliction locks are having this problem?

Your tanks are bad then, I myself play a Paladin tank as my current main, and on fights where DPS can go all out, say Patchwerk, I find myself doing around 5k TPS, my bear tank does around 5300 TPS.

For easy comparison, our top dps do 5 to 5.5k DPS and yet I still am at double their threat. I have never had anyone pull off me except another tank, or on Malygos when our DPS can do in the 7-8k dps.

So at the moment, I think the limiting factor for anyone's dps with a good tank is gear/skill/lag. Not threat

Damokles · 12/26/08, 8:18 PM

Originally Posted by DiamondTear

I don't even look at omen on other encounters when our MT is tanking.

I haven't taken a single point in threat reduction in any spec I've run with and if you have just a decent tank threat should only be a problem when stacking sparks at Maygos. If you have threat problems on a regular basis your tanks can improve a lot.

Christlock · 12/26/08, 9:34 PM

Is it possible to know what specc to have on a certain gear "level"?

Lets say you have 1.5k spelldmg unbuffed, 300~ hit rating, 300~ haste, 25% critt, what specc would you have chosen and why?

(Just curious to know, since my damage is around 3k+ on Patchwerk(10-man), and I'm tired of trying each and every specc). I ended up with 41/30 anyways. Don't like it that much tho. I don't like to controll pets.

Cyggs · 12/26/08, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Melbuframa

I see that simcraft was run again with some other specs, id like to see 53/1/17 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft modeled by someone more familiar with simcraft then I.

Originally Posted by Melbuframa

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I used your spec from the second post and some similar variations of it (which I not listed all), put it into SimulationCraft with 'default_hit_rating=446' and here it is:

Warlock_Melbu
Warlock_53_1_17_Imp
Warlock_54_0_17_DP
Warlock_53_3_15_DP
(Glyphs: Immolate, Siphon Life, Imp; the points in Fel Concentration and Amplify Course do not fall into account, they could also be in Imp. DS and FC)

Your spec is everytime 30dps ahead. It seems to be the best option for hitcapped Afflocks, even with an unbugged felhunter. The others are very close together, though.

Warlocomotif · 12/26/08, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Spellia

Your tanks are bad then, I myself play a Paladin tank as my current main, and on fights where DPS can go all out, say Patchwerk, I find myself doing around 5k TPS, my bear tank does around 5300 TPS.

For easy comparison, our top dps do 5 to 5.5k DPS and yet I still am at double their threat. I have never had anyone pull off me except another tank, or on Malygos when our DPS can do in the 7-8k dps.

So at the moment, I think the limiting factor for anyone's dps with a good tank is gear/skill/lag. Not threat

I've seen a guild mate who's affli do an easy 6k tps, 8k when below 25%. I'm guessing self healing is part of the problem, but I still dont know exactly why it's that high. Regardles I never had any threat problems in any spec at all; but the week I was affli I was using soulshatter every other fight. Again; something I really didnt have to do in any other spec at all. Ever. Or even think about it. DPS wasn't that different.

grizzlebeard · 12/28/08, 1:30 PM

Originally Posted by Cyggs

Your spec is everytime 30dps ahead. It seems to be the best option for hitcapped Afflocks, even with an unbugged felhunter. The others are very close together, though.

I remember one of the issues in the past with using the machine-gun imp talents without being deep into demo was that the imp ran out of mana in moments. Has this been remedied in any way and, if not, do those calculations assume the imp is going to have access to an unlimited mana pool?

I'm also interested in people's opinions on the usefulness of Grim Reach as a talent. I see very few builds with it ever factored in and yet I can easily count the number of times I've lost damage by a mob going out of range and having to reposition myself. Even one point in the talent seems to be a bonus in situations where encounters require a large amount of mobility or are in sizeable areas.

Evilwilly · 12/28/08, 2:23 PM

Originally Posted by Cyggs

I used your spec from the second post and some similar variations of it (which I not listed all), put it into SimulationCraft with 'default_hit_rating=446' and here it is:

Warlock_Melbu
Warlock_53_1_17_Imp
Warlock_54_0_17_DP
Warlock_53_3_15_DP
(Glyphs: Immolate, Siphon Life, Imp; the points in Fel Concentration and Amplify Course do not fall into account, they could also be in Imp. DS and FC)

Your spec is everytime 30dps ahead. It seems to be the best option for hitcapped Afflocks, even with an unbugged felhunter. The others are very close together, though.

I never see affliction/demonic aegis spec in there, something like my current spec (53/13/5):

The World of Warcraft Armory

My thoughts on a demonic aegis spec is that it does lose a (very) little dps for "patchwerk" single target dps fights, but for fights with a lot of mobility, mutli-target fights, or "hiding" style fights, you probably get a lot more from demonic aegis since you barely cast SB in those fights.

The problem with the spec and modeling it, is that all models are done based on "patchwerk" style - single target 100% cast time. The real world is often much different.

I'm finding 53/13/5 to work VERY well in real life situations, where I'm casting dots way more (sometimes almost exclusively).

Is it possible to model that spec? Also is it possible to model a 2-target encounter? Something where you maybe go:

Haunt 1
SB 1
CoA 1
Corr 1
CoA 2
Corr 2
UA 1
Haunt 1
UA 2
Siphon 1
Siphon 2
CoA 1

etc... some weird rotation that is almost all dots.

I find most of my fights to follow a lower SB uptime than what models predict. With the 53/13/5 spec I typically do around 3500 dps in 10 mans (compared to ~3000 as 54/0/17 or something)