You are probably correct, but it's difficult to prove it's boost in DPS, especially when there are other talents you can put in that WILL increase your DPS, even if it's a little bit.


Also, Evilwilly, what fights in particular are you referring to as good examples of this? Like, I was just checking my WMO's (Wowmeteronline, WWS-esque type site if you don't know) and calculated that my last parse of Maexxna, a fight where I'm frequently running back and forth to free web people, and SB makes up ~18% of my damage compared to Patchwerk, where it makes up ~28%. On those fights, Ruin netted me about 61 DPS on Maexxna, and 190 DPS on Patchwerk. (I just calculated on Faerlina it was ~24% of my damage and gave me 106 DPS) So yes, on fights with more movement and less filler time, Ruin will give less DPS, but I doubt that the extra ~40-50 damage you'll get from demonic aegis will more often than not outweigh the bonus of Ruin. And if you factor in things like Molten Core and Cataclysm on top of it, I'm even more doubtful of the validity of a build like that.

Thanks, Looks like most of the popular specs "should" be doing about the same DPS give or take some crazy RNG.

There is no need to be picky with 1 or few more talent points, it doesn't make much difference at all at most encounters.
Like mentioned before not every encounter is like Patchwerk where you simply stand still and nuke.
And nobody is perfect, so there is always that chance where you do something wrong.

Everything sounds good and all on paper but in reality it shows differently.
For example at some fights you can't do much with your imp or fellhunter other than having a high risk of dying.

Although I am curious sometimes so I went to try one of the recent mentioned IMP spec and changed around few talents related to hit.
Tried 53/1/17 WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warlock -> Talent Calculator
I managed to hit 5.7k DPS on Patchwerk with it.
Wow Web Stats
WOW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!

I have not tried the 53/13/5 spec out yet, but I have been running a 53-0-18 variation with 3/3 cataclysm for the past two weeks and have found to get the most dps out of it. While my hit is still just around 11%, this the reasoning for the fully talented cataclysm, I have been able to push very high numbers. (WOW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!) This is every encounter for all warlocks on "WowMetersOnline" and you can find my parses on just about every encounter excluding one or two boss's. I'm really looking forward to gather another percent or two of hit so I can drop the points out of cataclysm and work them into molten core, which I strongly believe will come out to some more dps for my parses.

I am also looking forward to next tuesday to try out the 53/13/5 spec and see the number that I can push. My warlocks gear is almost in game minus my trinkets and bracers, so any spec I play with I hope to produce some good numbers with. I will be posting next weeks raids wws as the affliction demonic aegis spec (53-13-5)in hope to gather good information for all of you to compare your specs/parses with along with my own as a 53-0-18 spec, to come up with which can produce higher dps.

The 53/13/5 spec is interesting. I would pick the Improved Imp over healthstone though (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft) to improve dps even more.

I get an additional 113 SP in my case (5,5% increase), with 657 spirit, which contributes to all my spells including SB. I sure would like to see some math on this spec.
I tried that spec vs 53/0/18 on Target Dummy (PTR), and I actually got a slight dps increase (3150 to 3200>)

Though, one would think that Ruin and Imp SB would outscale 9% more SP from Spirit and the static SP increase from Fel Armor (54).

Oh yeah, I forgot to add the base +30% damage to fel armor you get, but I still don't think that the Fel Armor will outweigh all the destro talents.

One more note on the range talents, and the question if they're worthwhile or not, is you have to invest 4 points (or 2 points, 1 point in each talent for 3 yards, which actually might be a good idea since a lot of abilities only have a 30 yard range) to get any benefit from it, if you max one and leave the other empty, it's kind of worthless. How much DPS could those 4 points get you? But now I'm actually considering taking 1 point of each.

I like that spec a lot, I have a feeling the first 3 yards is more valuable than the second 3 yards on the fact of how many AoEs are 30 yards, Noth's comes to mind, but I'm sure there will be more to come. I like that spec a lot, and think it has a lot of potential, especially if threat issues become more and more troublesome. I'd move 2 of those ISB points to Molten Core and the third one into maybe another imp DS or Eradication or imp FH.

Is your MT a druid then? I have experienced a lot of threat issues and being threat capped as well with affliction. There are some very tank unfriendly fights, but even in static ones I start doing 5000 TPS as soon as my dots are on the mob. The last sapphiron I did, I shattered at 60%ish and got 2 Hand of Salv and had to stand idle around 10% as at 25% TPS goes even up.
I think the main problem are our horrendous -threat talents. Up to when DS kicks in, 40% of our dps is sbolt. 10% less affliction threat is just a joke, it doesn't really do anything at all.

We use a DK as MT a lot and I guess that's the worst TPS tank atm. But even feral druids have issues on a lot of encounters, only a feral with BL is when I do not have to stare at omen. Anything else and it's back to watching threat bars. :/

Fellow warlocks,

I've been reading these forums for a while now. I also replied on some threads and am happy that there are so many out there brain storming about our class mechanics. So first of all, thanks for all your input, it surely has helped me a lot and undoubtedly many other warlocks.

I've been raiding Haunt/Ruin for some time now. With my current gear I manage to keep up about 5k dps on fights like patchwerk. With 3 locks in raids and ds ticking for 17k I even passed the 5.5k barrier. That said, I'm seeing continuously more warlocks with the Imp/emberstorm + shadow and flame build 31/40 ( Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft ). I enjoy both specs a lot, so fun isn't bottleneck here. What I would like to know is which build provides the highest raw damage output on fights like patchwerk. Does anyone have parses of this build that we can compare to Haunt/Ruin parses?

If I failed to find currently existing threads that answer my question I apologize. However I did look around before asking.

Yet again, thanks for you help guys!

Simulationcraft shows Haunt/Ruin and its variants being significantly higher DPS than any other spec. The gap is probably somewhat bridged in real life because the rotation is hard to keep up perfectly in the face of lag etc, but don't go switching to 0/31/40 in the hopes of a DPS increase.

Zakalwe, When you say Simulationcraft Shows Haunt/Ruin (Which is my current spec btw), is significantly higher than 0/30/40+1, Would that only apply to early on raiding? From what i've read and the numbers ive seen, it seems that 0/31/40 actually scales better with higher levels of gear due to Shadow and Flame+Emberstorm and Master Dem.

Marano: While searching the WoW forums i did see some WWS that pertain to your question. I am currently trying to find it, with no luck so far i'll go ahead and tell you what i saw until i can find it. 25 Man Patchwerk was the fight and there were 4 locks in the raid (surprise i know), 3 Were Aff and one was 31/40. the Demo/Destro lock was somewhere around 250dps higher than one Affliction lock, and miles ahead of the other 2 (Due to Shadow Embrace i would assume). Skill does come into play but the Demo/Destro had close to 200 less SP than said Aff lock, leading me to believe that Demo/Destro WILL scale better with gear in higher level raiding. Of course i am not at this level yet, however I am curious about this info for the future.

Good information to know, i guess the info ive seen is skewed by the skill of the player indeed!

It's a prot warrior. I actually didn't consider the possibility of different classes having different tps. I have heard DKs and druids have worse tps than warriors and paladins, so maybe that's the cause for some warlocks' threat problems.

I disagree. Tanks should not have threat problems, especially not warriors. If they aren:t able to mash buttons effectively, your raid hunters and rogues should be coordinating to help their threat along and your paladins should be able to HoS effectively. Your prot warrior MT can also use vigilance to help him along. If its really necessary, you can learn to manage your soulshatter better as well.

Threat capped dps at the moment (Malygos being an exception) is indicative of a bad tank, a poorly coordinated raid, or both.

Or it is a gearing issue?

Our tanks are quite good (tactics wise at least) but yet I can over aggro them without breaking a sweat - when it is a Warrior tank.
Even with Vigilance and threat reducing talents and 2% threat reducing meta gem.

When a Paladin is tanking I seem to have less threat issues.
And I save soul shatter for far in the mid fight.

I have been raiding as affliction for a while, and im starting to wonder if the 0/30/40 +1 spec can even compete with 55/0/16.. I have yet to see a meter where a demo/destro warlock has been close to an affliction lock.. I'd really like to play as some type of destro if it isn't going to gimp my dps, just looking for some insentive

I'm currently pushing 2300 spell damage..wearing heroics, 10 man naxx and 25 naxx gear.

I'm spec'd 0/41/30.
Do you think I'd be better off switching to 31/40 since you said it scales better? or is it still a negligible difference...

Read the thread I linked to. 31/40 does scale slightly better, but it doesn't catch up to 41/30 until you get gear that's way beyond T7 level.

Anyone have suggestions for best lock spec for Sartharion with 3 drakes up? We just started working on it seriously last night. I'm normally affliction and felt like my dps was lacking. Maybe a destro spec is better for more burst to kill the drakes quickly?

Spec 0/41/30 Get DBM when you get the "Run Away Little Girl" warning put your pet on Passive and find the opening after the lava passes then send it back in.

I have tried Affliction and Destro with the same results each has pros and cons for me. I have the best luck with my usual spec I just moved one point into demo sac and I kill my FG after drake 1.

Raided as 53/1/17 tonight and was I amazed at the dps it was able to pull. The raid consisted of a max of 21 raiders and some very nice numbers were still able to be done. Last weeks Patchwerk I did roughly 5.6k dps tonight just aroun 5.8k dps and thats with no gear change. Here's the log for tonights naxx:

WOW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!

I hope this can be of some assistance for you locks out there looking to push your dammage to the extreme.
For those of you not hit capped like myself you can fiddle with a point here and there in suppression/cataclysm to fit whatever is needed to make up for hit stats, and for those of you who are hit capped, enjoy that extra point or two in eradication or molten core for even more dps. Let me know what you guys think. Here's and exact link to my build from tonight's raid. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I'd recommend 0/30/40 with the remaining point in demonic knowledge or shadowfury for S3D. You can either have the imp attack or keep it phase shifted for the MD buff or sacrifice it & summon an infernal.