PVE Spec Discussion - Page 49

olindra · 05/20/09, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by krisp

Phase 2 it is not. Running around dotting all the corruptors means less time spent doing DPS on crushers, and unless it's a concentrated group effort you won't kill the corruptors anyway (face it, your dots won't do 600k damage). And how is dotting a mob with a medium life expentancy of ten seconds considered "priceless"?

First off I believe he said doting the mobs on the way to a crusher, which will help when it is time to burn down said corruptors since you are not doing anything else but running by them, also corruption can crit as high as 8k in yogg mabey even higher so you could easily get more than 40k from an aff lock in 3 gcds ( UA has crit for around 7k as well). And as for doting the guardians, we get to p2 with one guardian left (so I assume we are going at a decent pace dps wise) and I am usually around 4 or 5 on the meters until p3 hits.

brashar · 05/20/09, 12:38 PM

1 or 2 guardians up at the beginning of PH2 is fine, any more then that you loose brain time.
You should be holding #1 or 2 for Phase 2 as well, make sure you are using Drain soul on the crushers. Also you can DPS your own little tentacles if you happen to get stuck in one.

krisp · 05/20/09, 3:36 PM

also corruption can crit as high as 8k in yogg mabey even higher so you could easily get more than 40k from an aff lock in 3 gcds

Even if corruption can crit for 8k (which i doubt), dots don't tick instantly.

olindra · 05/20/09, 4:31 PM

Originally Posted by krisp

Even if corruption can crit for 8k (which i doubt), dots don't tick instantly.

First off I did not state that they would tick instantly, but in 3 gcds which would be free while running towards a crusher an afflic lock could easily gain another 40k damage, and for a destro lock or any variant that uses conflag you would have to stop to get that extra damage. Also it would be cast/gcd for you to get the 40k because you would have to cast immolate first.
And in regards to your disbelief of 8k corruption ticks my normal corruption crits on a target dummy self buffed is upwards of 5k, add in raid buffs and the extra damage done during yogg with the buffs from the npcs and 8k is a modest estimate.

nuibank · 05/20/09, 5:08 PM

Originally Posted by olindra

First off I did not state that they would tick instantly, but in 3 gcds which would be free while running towards a crusher an afflic lock could easily gain another 40k damage, and for a destro lock or any variant that uses conflag you would have to stop to get that extra damage. Also it would be cast/gcd for you to get the 40k because you would have to cast immolate first.
And in regards to your disbelief of 8k corruption ticks my normal corruption crits on a target dummy self buffed is upwards of 5k, add in raid buffs and the extra damage done during yogg with the buffs from the npcs and 8k is a modest estimate.

Not that they will be 4k or crits, but all locks have access to CoA and corruption which could help them bridge some of the gap you are claiming.

krisp · 05/21/09, 4:21 AM

First off I did not state that they would tick instantly, but in 3 gcds which would be free while running towards a crusher an afflic lock could easily gain another 40k damage

When i said 40k damage i was talking about constrictors and their needing to be killed ASAP. Second, what 3 gcds? Your only insta-cast spells are corruption and coa. Coa doesn't crit, and corruption won't crit 8k on a target without coe or haunt on it, it won't crit as much on a target without imp scorch on tow on it, not to mention with my ~20% crit shown in my stats my conflag has an actual 50%+ chance to crit without any raid buffs. Third, don't assume you'll always dot everything on your way to the crushers. Crushers can spawn one next to each other or far away from corruptor tentacles. Fourth, yes you'll do a bit more damage *on the meters* if you dot while running, but you won't necessarily fulfill the objective of phase 2 which is "kill crushers faster", especially towards the end.

I hope you're not talking about phase 3 here because that would just mean you're trying to argue something that no one's denying.

Things were blurry before but as of 3.1.2 destruction wins hands down on phases 1 and 2 when it comes to raid efficiency. Phase 1 could be problematic now however, we tend to generate a lot of threat from my experience.

Valilock · 05/21/09, 6:44 AM

This is really to add to a discussion going on in the Simcraft thread (that shouldn't be in there) about deep destro specs after the patch.

After trying out a 0/13/58 build yesterday I'm pretty impressed. It does very good single target DPS which is great when you need to burn something fast like XTs heart or Razor on landing phase (as you can guess I'm not in a guild that is clearing Yogg just yet

). I still think that I'll be spec-dancing for the time being and doing what's best for the raid overall. On fights with a lot of adds then the AOE from deep destro is still comparatively weak compared to affliction and 40/30+1 hybrid builds.

Overall it's a huge improvement from where deep destro was before 3.1.2 but anyone hoping for the easy and overpowered DPS of the old 21/40 days is going to be disappointed. Right now destro is raid-viable nothing more, which is probably where the developers want it to be.

EDIT: and yes, threat is again an issue. I found myself skirting tank threat for the first time in ages, but that just means they get to work a bit harder.

olindra · 05/21/09, 9:25 AM

Originally Posted by krisp

When i said 40k damage i was talking about constrictors and their needing to be killed ASAP. Second, what 3 gcds? Your only insta-cast spells are corruption and coa. Coa doesn't crit, and corruption won't crit 8k on a target without coe or haunt on it, it won't crit as much on a target without imp scorch on tow on it, not to mention with my ~20% crit shown in my stats my conflag has an actual 50%+ chance to crit without any raid buffs. Third, don't assume you'll always dot everything on your way to the crushers. Crushers can spawn one next to each other or far away from corruptor tentacles. Fourth, yes you'll do a bit more damage *on the meters* if you dot while running, but you won't necessarily fulfill the objective of phase 2 which is "kill crushers faster", especially towards the end.
.

First of all when mentioning the 40k damage you never said anything about constrictors you just said you could get it in 3-4 gcds, second on the training dummys with no raid buffs/haunt/SE and only lightweave proc + fel armor + 3 IotDS stacks I get 4400 crit from corruption (yes not even life tap buff). So with even simple math it should be easy for you to see that with 40% more damage and alot more spell power from raid buffs someone CAN get a 8k crit with corruption w/o aformentioned debuffs. Please do a little research before you post missinformation. It seems you appear to be defending dest for the yogg fight, but I do not think anyone was bashing it , also affliction is not as terrible in p1 and p2 of the fight like you seem to think it is. If you raid with affliction locks who do badly in the first two phases of the yogg fight send them here to get better at their class. Just please don't state that it does bad in thoes phases cause you are very wrong there.

• bartolimu · 05/21/09, 10:41 AM

Hey guys stop being assholes to each other. Thanks in advance.

mochana · 05/21/09, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Valilock

After trying out a 0/13/58 build yesterday I'm pretty impressed
...
EDIT: and yes, threat is again an issue. I found myself skirting tank threat for the first time in ages, but that just means they get to work a bit harder.

Same threat problem for me, normally in the first 60 seconds of a fight, after which its generally fine.
I'm now working in a soulshatter as standard after the second backdraft has cleared rather than leaving it as an emergency button.

The other option might be to spec 2/2 destructive reach, 2/3 empowered imp, but given that the issue seems to be the early burst damage rather than the long term threat I'll probably stick to the soulshatter method.

Soulzar · 05/21/09, 1:51 PM

Originally Posted by mochana

The other option might be to spec 2/2 destructive reach, 2/3 empowered imp, but given that the issue seems to be the early burst damage rather than the long term threat I'll probably stick to the soulshatter method.

Simulations have been done within the last week to show that Emp imp is a larger DPS loss to drop a point out of than Backlash. Please refer to this post for the details.

Diogi · 05/21/09, 5:51 PM

Originally Posted by Soulzar

Simulations have been done within the last week to show that Emp imp is a larger DPS loss to drop a point out of than Backlash. Please refer to this post for the details.

Simulations also show the imp representing 9% of 0/13/58 damage, and after running several 5+ minute tests on a training dummy and clearing everything but yogg so far this week, I find my imp to be 6-7% of my damage on the dummy as well as boss fights. (These numbers were achieved with the cookie cutter spec, my current spec is a modified 0/13/58 for anyone who was about to armory me and point that out).

Can anyone else confirm that their imp is providing less dps than the simulation suggests?

If so, then the choice of talents to drop in favor of more utility may not be so clear cut.

silmarieni · 05/21/09, 7:18 PM

Originally Posted by Diogi

Can anyone else confirm that their imp is providing less dps than the simulation suggests?

Can't speak for Ulduar.

First hours with 0/13/58 in 3.1.2 in Naxxramas 10 & 25, I get about 10% damage from the imp.

Injez · 05/22/09, 5:55 AM

Originally Posted by Diogi

I find my imp to be 6-7% of my damage

Empowered Imp
Increases the damage done by your Imp by 15%, and all critical hits done by your Imp have a 100% chance to increase your spell critical hit chance for your next spell by 20%. This effect lasts 8 sec.

Valilock · 05/22/09, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Diogi

Simulations also show the imp representing 9% of 0/13/58 damage, and after running several 5+ minute tests on a training dummy and clearing everything but yogg so far this week, I find my imp to be 6-7% of my damage on the dummy as well as boss fights. (These numbers were achieved with the cookie cutter spec, my current spec is a modified 0/13/58 for anyone who was about to armory me and point that out).

Can anyone else confirm that their imp is providing less dps than the simulation suggests?

If so, then the choice of talents to drop in favor of more utility may not be so clear cut.

I'd ignore the tests done on the dummy as your imp won't be raid buffed. But in answer to your question mine was doing 8-10% damage on various bosses in Ulduar - using the standard 0/13/58