Nyarlathotep

I'm raiding as meta/ruin and I'm using SB/Corr/FG. I'm not sure at the moment are Corr and SB (SB cause it makes 7,5 4-setbonus worse), but then again I have to put that on excel to test all that out.

 

Mindaika

So it seems the main Deep Affliction glyph choices are as follows:

Corruption
Unstable Affliction
Immolate
Felhunter
Siphon Life
Shadow Bolt
CoA


Corruption: Probably a no-brainer, regardless of whether the mechanic of the increase (7.84 vs 8.00%)

UA: Seems the viability of this is dependent on whether the cast reduction also reduces the GCD. If not, it seem more PvP oriented.

Immo: Appears to be great if you're using Immo in your rotation, although relative to CoA and SL it's debatable

Felhunter: As evidenced above, not worth it unless None of the others are available

SL: Primary contender for Immo, in my opinion.

SB: Seems pointless for a non-SB spam build.

CoA: Wording is unclear. Assuming the 2 extra ticks aren't at the end, and the CoA damage just becomes D/28 instead of D/24, the primary benefit is from DPCT. In build featuring MC, this would be great, but probably not better than something else in builds not featuring it.

Comments/additions?

 

Debuff

It is my understanding that the glyph of CoA doesnt just add 2 ticks that the damage is spread out over but rather adds in 2 more ticks. The result is that a glyphed CoA does more damage than a non-glyphed CoA rather than just extending its duration as you have suggested.

 

Mindaika

Quick dummy testing indicate Glyph of CoA DOES do more damage. It appears that it adds two more of the highest previous ticks.

 

Blacksen

Really? Previously in this thread, it was shown that it does NOT add more ticks on the end. It adds the dmg ticks in the middle.

Progression is a marathon, not a sprint.

 

Mindaika

It was a really quick test mind you, but I got ~1000 more dmg with the glyph, which I think would have been 2 more of the final ticks. However, it also COULD have been more of the two middle ticks (which I think were about 450). Either way though, it it definitely more overall damage, rather than the unglyphed damage spread over a longer period of time.

Assuming it is the two middle ticks, that equates to about a 17% damage increase on CoA, which I think is an overall greater damage increase that the 20% on immolate or the 20% on SL. (Correct me if I'm wrong here).

 

DiamondTear

Come on. If you want to refute a screenshot, at least provide a one of your own.

And you cannot consider the damage increase to CoA because of the two extra middle ticks anything but extra time to shadowbolt or incinerate.

 

Nicarras

Expound on this please.

Yes it is going to be doing more damage. But how are you telling what ticks are happening. Are you screen shotting all the ticks from SCT, if so, post them.

It would make zero sense for them to add it at the end.

 

Mindaika

I haven't, but I can. I'm using sequential single cast tests on the Level 80 training dummy. Ungylphed CoA gives me 12 ticks of an average 452dmg, Glyphed gives me 14 ticks of an average 452dmg.

Re: DiamondTear's comment; I'm not sure how that's not considered an increase in damage, nor am I sure what screenshot you feel I'm refuting. Please clarify.

 

Nicarras

Yeah we dont really care about average damage done.

What you'd need to do is cast it, then make your combat log window large enough to screenshot all the ticks.

Problem solved.

 

Trickykid

The middle ticks of Agony are the average tick damage of the entire spell since (the first and last third average to the middle amount. Given that, 2 extra ticks for the same average size seems to suggest it's adding to the middle.

 

Mindaika

Right, it does appear to be the two middle ticks, as I mentioned above. My original question was about whether it was:

Original damage/14 ticks

or

Original damage/12 ticks + 2 more ticks


The situation appears to be the latter, making Glpyh of CoA an absolute damage increase, rather than the same amount of damage spread over a longer period of time.

 

rutiene

Not true. Damage increase only would apply if the ticks did more damage over the same period of time or there were more ticks of the same damage over the same period of time. If it adds 2 more ticks at the same DPS as unglyphed, then there is no net change in DPS. The only point would be to save yourself GCD after a set number of CoA casts.

 

Mindaika

That would be essentially what I said: "An ABSOLUTE damage increase." Glyphed CoA damage is greater than unglyphed. Glyphed CoA DPS is also higher, although only slightly, and that comes from the lower number of casts needed.

As for set # of CoA casts, that would be 6, so the glyph would save 1GCD every 2.4 minutes. Assuming a 3300 damage, completely unhasted SB, the extra GCD works out to about 14DPS.

[1.5/2.5 * 3300] (GCD / SB cast time * Avg SB damage)

Let me know if my math is wrong there.

 

Blacksen

Spent a while writing this. Your glyph choices should be Immolate / SL / Corruption.



CHANGES:
- Recalculated Curse of Agony with Amplify Curse.
- Recalculated Shadowbolt with 10% instead of 20%.

I wrote this because the DPCT shit that's going around is just plain annoying. I want to know how to raise my DPS. There's nothing you can do (save for not clipping DoT's and popping trinkets) during a fight to raise or lower your PDCT, as as noted somewhere else around here, DPCT isn't the end-all-be-all of warlocks.



SUMMARY
The top two glyphs for Affliction are Siphon Life and Immolate. Jury is still out on the 3rd
Personally, I have Corruption for my 3rd Glyph. I think that Corruption slices out Shadow Bolt with the 4pc bonus anyway.


Here is the amount of DPS gained from each Glyph:
Glyph of Shadow Bolt:
(shadow bolt dmg) / (2.5*(1-haste%)*((1490 + spirit*3) / 63.5))

Glyph of Curse of Agony:
Without Amplify Curse: (shadow Bolt dmg) * 0.0035714285714285714285714285714286
With Amplify Curse: (Shadow Bolt dmg) * 0.0029166666666666666666666666666667 more DPS

Glyph of Corruption:
(Shadow Bolt Dmg) * .0043333333333333

Glyph of Siphon Life:
0.0106175858019 * spell dmg + 7.9521446666666666666666666666667

Glyph of Immolate:
(must use WWS to compute)
Without Glyph: ((avg DoT Tick) * .2 / 3) - ( (#normal hits / #total hits) * (avg normal hit) + (#crits / #total hits) * (avg crit)) * .1/ 18
With Glyph: ((avg DoT Tick) * .1666666666666 / 3) - ( (#normal hits / #total hits) * (avg normal hit) + (#crits / #total hits) * (avg crit)) * .11111111 / 18



To summarize completely... It doesn't matter which glyph you chose. They're all within 5-6 dps of each other, and they're all so tiny anyway.





Curse of Agony
Alright, I did the Math, and I want people to know why the Glyph of Curse of Agony is pretty bad.

The Glyph of Curse of Agony does NOT give you significant extra time. You don't magically have 4 seconds that you didn't have before from this glyph. This is the core of why the Glyph of Curse of Agony is terrible. The average person is going to look at the glyph and go "hmmm, so that's 4 seconds that I didn't have before." That's an extremely flawed line of thinking. Here's the simple math for it:

UNGLYPHED:
Over 168 seconds, you must cast Curse of Agony 7 times. (24*7 = 168).
This means that to keep an unglyphed Curse of Agony up with 100% DoT uptime, you must devote 7 global cooldowns to Curse of Agony every 168 seconds.

GLYPHED:
Over 168 seconds, you must cast Curse of Agony 6 times. (24*6 = 168).
This means that to keep a glyphed Curse of Agony up with 100% DoT uptime, you must devote 6 global coodlwons every 168 seconds.
This saves 361 mana (assuming 3/3 Suppression).

Note that over those 168 seconds, the BOTH CURSE OF AGONIES DO THE SAME AMOUNT OF DAMAGE
Unglyphed:
21 "low ticks"
21 "middle ticks"
21 "high ticks"

Glyphed:
18 "low ticks"
30 "middle ticks"
18 "high ticks"

***6 "middle ticks" = 3 "low ticks" + 3 "high ticks"***
Or, another way to look at is that at the end of those 168 seconds, both glyphs will have hit their full duration. The average damage doesn't change since the "extra ticks" gets added to the middle.

It's critical to understand that you're not "gaining 4 seconds" of DPS time every CoA. Instead, you're gaining 1 global cooldown every 2 minutes and 48 seconds. On average, that means that the glyph of curse of agony is saving you .8% time, and that time also goes DOWN with haste. This means that every 2 minutes and 48 seconds, you're getting 60% more of a shadowbolt (Shadowbolt 2.5 second cast, GCD is 1.5 seconds. I think the ratio stays the same with haste, but I could be wrong. Either way, it's close).

But wait! You've got a talent to reduce the GCD on Curses down to 1 second. For affliction builds, the dps goes down even more. This "60%" quickly turns into a 40% - 50% (I'm going to be generous and call it a 49%), and timed save turns into .06%.

Let's look at the mana saved, because some people like to point fingers there. 361 mana saved every 168 seconds, or roughly 2.15 mana consumed / second. Improved Life Tap gives 2328 mana base (1490 * 150*3 * 1.2). This means you're saving one global cooldown every 1082.8 seconds. That's approximately 18 minutes. Very few fights are ever that long, which means that the Glyph of Curse of Agony really isn't saving you any time in terms of # of lifetaps. Also considering that many fights require mobility, a smart warlock can tie in lifetaps with movement. What I'm really trying to say here is that the mana saved won't give you a DPS increase. You're saving .14% time in life-taps, but really, that "extra lifetap" will never occur.

So, the amount of DPS that curse of agony gives is this:
(Shadow bolt dmg) * .6 / 168
=(Shadow Bolt dmg) * 0.0035714285714285714285714285714286 more DPS
If your Shadowbolt hits for 5000 average, this means you're getting about 18 dps from this Glyph.

If you're affliction, this becomes even more terrible...
(Shadow bolt dmg) * .49 / 168
= (Shadow Bolt dmg) * 0.0029166666666666666666666666666667 more DPS



Corruption
This goes back to the arguments about Nightfall and it's actual increases in DPS. I'm going to short-change the proc rate here and say that the total nightfall proc rate with both the Glyph and Talent will be about 7.25%. Actual testing will put it around 7.6-7.8%, and math'll put it around that area too. But for ease, let's just say it's 7.25%.

First we need to calcluate how much dmg Nightfall ALONE (the 4% proc rate) actually gives you, then we need to calcluate how much dmg that 7.25% gives you, and the difference over the time area should be how often you get it.

With a 4% proc rate, this means that (mathematically) one out of every 25 corruption ticks you will get a nightfall proc, or once every 75 seconds. Math:
1 tick every 3 seconds.
# of ticks per second = .333333
Chance of Proc 4% = 1/25
# of procs per second = Chance of Proc * # of ticks per second = .04 * .333333 = 0.0133333
1 / # of procs per second = frequency of procs = 1 / .0133333 = 75

Now, the big key to understanding Nightfall (and this Glyph) is to realize that you're not saving 2.5 seconds - you're only saving 1 second. And that's at unhasted levels. This is because the "instant" shadowbolt still takes a global cooldown.

So, every 75 seconds, you're saving 1 - (haste %) seconds of time, or roughly 40% of a shadowbolt cast. Assuming that extra time goes purely into casting more shadowbolts, then we can calculate how much more damage you're getting.

First, we need to calculate the amount of time you get casting a shadowbolt:
1 Nightfall gives x more shadowbolts.
x = (time saved) / (shadowbolt casting time) = (1- (haste %)) / (2.5 * (1-(haste %))
Oh look! Haste effects cancel out!
x = 2/5

So, every 75 seconds, you're getting 2/5 more of a shadowbolt.
(Shadow bolt dmg) * .4 / 75 = Shadow Bolt Dmg * 0.0053333333333333333333333333333333 more DPS

Going back in with a 7.25% Nightfall rate
1 tick every 3 seconds.
# of ticks per second = .333333
Chance of Proc 7% = .0725
# of procs per second = Chance of Proc * # of ticks per second = .0725 * .333333 = 0.0241666666
1 / # of procs per second = frequency of procs = 1 / .0133333 = 41.38 seconds
With Glyph, you get one Nightfall proc every 41.38 seconds.
(Shadow Bolt dmg) * .4 / 41.38
= Shadow Bolt Dmg * 0.009666666 more DPS


Now we take the difference between the two.
= (Shadow Bolt Dmg * 0.009666666) - (Shadow Bolt Dmg * 0.0053333333333333)


= (Shadow Bolt Dmg) * .0043333333333333 increase in DPS

I do need to briefly mention the mana thing again.
You were casting .4 of a shadowbolt every 75 seconds. Shadowbolt costs 635 mana, 40% of that is 254. This means a mana consumption / second is 3.38667.
Now you're getting .4 of a shadowbolt every 41.38 seconds. Again, 254 / 41.38 is 6.138. Mana consumption difference is 2.75133 mana/second. This means you have to lifetap one more time every 846 seconds, or every 14.1 minutes. Again, same thing for the curse of agony mentioned above - there really is no practical difference.



Siphon Life
This one's tricky to compare since it's not saving you any time. I'm stealing from this thread:
Dots and you: The Affliction Warlock Thread

Let's start with the "normal" Siphon Life dmg.
NOTE: the .99 at the end is an incorrect calculation. You can get to 100% hit now on bosses.
0.85*1.15*1.1*1.2*1.13*1.01*( 810 + ((1.00+0.05)*((spelldmg)*1.03))
To simplify....
1.47261939 * (810 + 1.0815 * (spelldmg))
= 1192.8217059 + 1.592637870285 * spell dmg
Unglyphed Siphon Life DPS: (1192.8217059 + 1.592637870285 * spell dmg) / 30

Now, let's calculate that with the glyph by multiplying by 1.2
1.767143268 * (810 + 1.0815 * (spelldmg))
= 1431.38604708 + 1.911165444342 * spell dmg
Glyphed Siphon Life DPS: (1431.38604708 + 1.911165444342 * spell dmg) / 30

It's tricky to compare to Shadow Bolts, and with such terribad coefficient math in the current two threads, I'm not going to try. For now, let's just compare the differences...

DPS gained from this glyph: (238.56434118 + 0.318527574057*spell dmg) / 30
= 0.0106175858019 * spell dmg + 7.9521446666666666666666666666667





Immolate
Unfortunately, as I posted in both of the "dps coefficient" threads here, their coefficients are off. One thread gives a spell dmg coefficient on Immolate's DoT to be 320%, which is false. The other thread includes Malediction in Immolate's base dmg, which is also false.

So, I'm going to calculate it using WWS and real numbers. If you want to calculate it yourself, go out to a target dummy, cast immolate 20-30 times letting it tick for it's full duration, then parse the numbres with WWS. Just look at the immolate ability.

MATH WITHOUT THE GLYPH:
Direct Damage Component:
x = (# of normal hits) / (# of total hits)
y = (# of crits) / (# of total hits)
z = x*(avg normal hit) + y*(avg crit)
Lost DD dmg = z*.1
Adjusted DD DPS = Lost DD dmg / 18

DoT Component:
Gained DoT dmg = (avg DoT tick) * .2 * 6
Adjusted DoT DPS = Gained DoT dmg / 18

On one immolate cast...
Ammount of dmg gained = Gained DoT dmg - Lost DD dmg
Ammount of DPS gained = (Ammount of dmg gained) /18 = Adjusted DoT DPS - Adjusted DD DPS
Solo equation: ((avg DoT Tick) * .2 / 3) - ( (#normal hits / #total hits) * (avg normal hit) + (#crits / #total hits) * (avg crit)) * .1/ 18



MATH WITH THE GLYPH:
Direct Damage Component:
x = (# of normal hits) / (# of total hits)
y = (# of crits) / (# of total hits)
z = x*(avg normal hit) + y*(avg crit)
Lost DD dmg = z*.111111111111
Adjusted DD DPS = Lost DD dmg / 18

DoT Component:
Gained DoT dmg = (avg DoT tick) * .1666666666666 * 6
Adjusted DoT DPS = Gained DoT dmg / 18

On one immolate cast...
Ammount of dmg gained = Gained DoT dmg - Lost DD dmg
Ammount of DPS gained = (Ammount of dmg gained) /18 = Adjusted DoT DPS - Adjusted DD DPS
Solo equation: ((avg DoT Tick) * .1666666666666 / 3) - ( (#normal hits / #total hits) * (avg normal hit) + (#crits / #total hits) * (avg crit)) * .11111111 / 18





Last but not Least....
Shadow Bolt
635 mana goes down to 571.5 mana, or 63.5 mana saved.

(1490+spirit*3) / 63.5 = # of Shadowbolts before this glyph gets you one more shadowbolt
How much DPS does it give you?
(shadow bolt dmg) / (2.5*(1-haste%)*((1490 + spirit*3) / 63.5))

Progression is a marathon, not a sprint.

 

DiamondTear

The screenshot I am talking about is in the post #35 of this thread. Why do you even bother discussing anything before reading through a thread as short as this?

 

Morrigan

The Shadow Bolt glyph is only a 10% mana cost reduction.

Btw, I've tested Glyph of Immolate vs. Glyph of Corruption in SimulationCraft, and the Immolate one turned out to be better by ~30 dps (for an affliction warlock, of course). Don't know if they are modeled correctly by it, though.

 

Darkstarrz

What kind of dps are you pushing as this spec?

 

Darkstarrz

So I have been using coa, corruption, and Shadowbolt glyphs. I have been doing a little research on which are best for an affliction warlock and have come to conclusion that the dps is very marginal between most of the glyphs in which you would chose for your three major slots. Now my question is im in a bit of a heap on whether to use the Shadowbolt or Siphon life glyphs for optimal dps from my glyphs. Any suggestions?

 

Blacksen

You should drop both the CoA and Shadowbolt glyphs to switch for Siphon Life and Immolate Glyphs if your aim is to maximize DPS. Immolate glyph actually gives you around 25% more dmg on the DoT component after factoring in the spellstone and Shadow Embrace.

Progression is a marathon, not a sprint.

 

Mindaika

After thinking about this, I realized the GCD savings here would actually be lower for Deep Affliction build with Amplify Curse, making the math:

[1/2.5 * 3300]/[2.4*60] = a whopping 9.2DPS, which is around a 0.4% increase at 2500DPS (relative to no glyph). I'm thinking of replacing the CoA with Immo, although with the kind of numbers, it's probably all kind of irrelevant.

 

Leprechaun-Misha

I figured as much I just wanted to make sure. Didn't know if there was another glyph that would still calculate out to be better in that spec. I am no dummy I know my skills don't lie in that type of math so I went to the people that I trusted to be able to let me know.

 

Kushana

I'm running a Destro 2/13/56 build, and I am currently using the CoA glyph, though Blacksen's pointed analysis has changed my mind. I looked to see what else I could use.

Apart from Glyph of Corruption giving me a SB every 42 seconds, the only possible alternative is Conflagrate.

Lvl 80 Conflag costs 12% of 4294 mana, or 515 mana. A 20% savings is 103. In perfect conditions you will use this every 15 (Immolate duration) + 2 (Immo cast) - .5 (Bane) - .3 (Backdraft) - haste (~.15) seconds, or about once every 16 seconds. Of course, you're going to clip your Immolate, so let's call it every 15 seconds. 103 mana saved every 15 seconds is 6.9 mana/s.

This makes it better than CoA, but similarly only a DPS increase in relation to how many life taps you can save. Since we don't have ILT, using Blacksen's values gives us a Life Tap of 1940 mana, and therefore an extra GCD once every 281 seconds (4 min 41s), getting worse with better spirit. Eww.

Back to Glyph of Corruption I guess.

 

Morbain

I plugged in my numbers using Blacksen's formulas and, unless I did something wrong, got some strange results. The numbers are telling me that it's SB, Immolate, and SL (for affliction).

I assumed SB damage was average SB damage, including crit rate, and I just took that from WWS. And I plugged in my numbers from WWS for all of Immolate calculations.

SB: 60.58 DPS
Immolate (without glyph): 50.59 DPS
SL: 33.43 DPS
Corr: 16.9 DPS
CoA: 13.92 DPS

 

Bergtau

So you calculated a 10% reduction in mana cost as a 10% increase in Shadow Bolt damage? That is incorrect if that's what you did, especially since it does not save you a Life Tap in many cases.