We all know the FG relies on a different hit cap to that of the Imp, would it be worth it, to only go 15 points into the destro tree, and not taking Cataclysm, but gearing for 13% tooltip hit (Alliance) from gear, one advantage you dont miss on curses or destro spells, but also your dg/fg has another 3% hit.
The felguard is melee, his cap is 8-9%, which is below the 11% you need talented and buffed, so he should be hit capped no matter what you do.
The only thing Simcraft really needs in order to support meta/ruin is the Immolation aura. I'm ready to implement it, but I need details - mainly I need to know the spell power coefficient and whether it's affected by molten core. I've already gathered from your WWS that it's affected by haste, and I'm guessing that means each tick can miss, but it would be nice to get confirmation on that as well.
We also don't support Shadow Cleave at the moment, but you don't seem to be using it. Is there any particular reason you aren't? Something I read on wowhead seems to suggest it's off the GCD, in which case it should be worth using every cooldown? If so, I'd need details on its scaling as well.
I guess the final question I'd ask is: How do you get into melee range? Do you just start the fight there, or do you use the charge/intercept ability? In the latter case, does that cost a GCD?
Once we have the above information, it should't take long for me or another of the devs to implement it.
TBH, i dont even have shadow cleave on my bars, i havent shadow cleaved anything since i hit 80 so ill have to test that for you, if its off the GCD then ill definitely start using it.
From what i have noticed is that Immolation aura scales with spell power but the coef seems fairly low, however it is affected by haste, which is mainly pointless because it only shortens the duration, the overall damage stays the same. From the time i have been meta/ruin i have never seen Immolation aura miss, im not sure if that just rng or not tho.
Just an update on my fully buffed test tonight, didnt go so well, our usual patchwerk kill is below the 3 min mark so i saved Meta for the heroism, however 2 DPS retards thought it would be a good idea to attack Patchwerk before the offtank got hateful striked so our overall kill took alot longer than usual but i couldnt compensate as i had already started saving my meta cooldown for heroism .... Still waiting on WWS but from recount numbers (for some reason they are usually different for me by about 200 dps) i came 1st on meters at about 5.7kdps. I had 48% crit rate with ele shaman and focus magic, woulda been nice if those retards didnt die
I guess ill have to try again fully buffed next week. Ill post wws as soon as its up.
The felguard is melee, his cap is 8-9%, which is below the 11% you need talented and buffed, so he should be hit capped no matter what you do.
Are you sure? i was specced 41/30 upon entering naxx25, with hit capped gear, i was sure he would miss normal swings and some cleaves. Guess i can try out in my full hitcap gear 14% + talents, and see what i get from dummies.
TBH, i dont even have shadow cleave on my bars, i havent shadow cleaved anything since i hit 80 so ill have to test that for you, if its off the GCD then ill definitely start using it.
From what i have noticed is that Immolation aura scales with spell power but the coef seems fairly low, however it is affected by haste, which is mainly pointless because it only shortens the duration, the overall damage stays the same. From the time i have been meta/ruin i have never seen Immolation aura miss, im not sure if that just rng or not tho.
Just an update on my fully buffed test tonight, didnt go so well, our usual patchwerk kill is below the 3 min mark so i saved Meta for the heroism, however 2 DPS retards thought it would be a good idea to attack Patchwerk before the offtank got hateful striked so our overall kill took alot longer than usual but i couldnt compensate as i had already started saving my meta cooldown for heroism .... Still waiting on WWS but from recount numbers (for some reason they are usually different for me by about 200 dps) i came 1st on meters at about 5.7kdps. I had 48% crit rate with ele shaman and focus magic, woulda been nice if those retards didnt die
I guess ill have to try again fully buffed next week. Ill post wws as soon as its up.
Cheers
5700 on a non maximised kill is still pretty decent numbers, suffice to say, if you'd know it would take longer, it would be closer to 6k.
The only thing Simcraft really needs in order to support meta/ruin is the Immolation aura. I'm ready to implement it, but I need details - mainly I need to know the spell power coefficient and whether it's affected by molten core. I've already gathered from your WWS that it's affected by haste, and I'm guessing that means each tick can miss, but it would be nice to get confirmation on that as well.
...
Once we have the above information, it should't take long for me or another of the devs to implement it.
Not sure about the coefficient but it is affected by molten core and each tick of immolation aura changes with buffs & spellpower so I presume that each tick can miss too.
Are you sure? i was specced 41/30 upon entering naxx25, with hit capped gear, i was sure he would miss normal swings and some cleaves. Guess i can try out in my full hitcap gear 14% + talents, and see what i get from dummies.
Pretty sure - I never saw any misses when I was 41/30 and raiding with 11% hit from gear. What you may be seeing is the "all miss" column in WWS, which includes dodges, blocks, and parries.
From what i have noticed is that Immolation aura scales with spell power but the coef seems fairly low, however it is affected by haste, which is mainly pointless because it only shortens the duration, the overall damage stays the same. From the time i have been meta/ruin i have never seen Immolation aura miss, im not sure if that just rng or not tho.
In order to implement this in Simcraft, I need something much more accurate than "seems fairly low". Any chance you could take the time to test this on a training dummy with no buffs (not even fel armor) and pet dismissed? All I need to know is how much it hits for naked and how much it hits for with gear, plus what your spell power is when geared.
The felguard is melee, his cap is 8-9%, which is below the 11% you need talented and buffed, so he should be hit capped no matter what you do.
From what I understand, Felguard is melee and cap is 8.6%, as you said. But what I also understand is that because he is melee, he is effected by the melee hit rating/% which is 32.79, and not our 26.23. What I have been assuming based on that, is that I need 282 hit rating in order to give him his 8.6%. Since even at our lowest required hit rating (289 - 11%) we are still above 282, this should not be a problem. I just wanted to clarify what effects the felguard's misses and how close we actually are to his cap when fully talented and buffed. I could be wrong on this and would love if anyone could correct me, but this is what I have been working around in leulier's sheet recently.
Does anyone have a castsequence macro that would allow me to bang 1 button a few times and cast Meta -> Charge -> ImmolAura -> Shadow cleave (if it isnt on the GCD) and then I go back to my normal shadowbolt/corruption buttons. I thought I had it written, but it doesnt work. Any macros beyond /use trink /cast spell are beyond my abilities apparently
I have already specced meta, I put the extra 5 points (GM is an Elem Shammy, so I always have the totem) into improve Corruption, I didnt think immolaura would be effected by Molten Core and I am casting CoD instead of CoA. Glyphs are Corr, FG, Immolate. We already have a full naxx clear, so I will be trying this next week, figured I would spec early and get used to it for then. Any suggestions? Should I spec into MC and use CoA instead?
Should in theory work, but im trying on target dummies, and its using charge, but its not charging. Not sure if people have talked through glyph usage, as were spamming SB mostly, should we be using Immo or Corr Glyph? i would guess Corr, but Immo is still a big portion of our dmg, but without imp.Immolate not sure if its worth it or not.
Some clarification on cleave, not sure if its been written before but the question about gcd was asked so its worth mentioning, Cleave is an "on next attack" ability, you need to be "Swinging" to get it to hit, so may be better to positioned before the charge (if it works on mobs, dummy it doesnt). Problem with placing it at the end is anything u cast will stop you meleeing, and will cancel the cleave, so its a troublesome ability to work in.
Any thoughts on introducing Shadowflame after Immo Aura while in melee range? in an aoe situation will do alot of dmg, on single boss its another shadow damage dot.
At one point last night with raid buffs, flask, and food buff I was sitting at 3563 spell power.. from what I understand of Demonic Pact it is 2% of your spell power.. what # is it? Would it be 2% of that 3563 buffed number? At what point does it surpass the Shaman buff? I deliberately did not take Demonic Pact because we always run with the Shammy buff.. free's up 5 points to get creative. Just the napkin math if it is 2% of the buffed number means that Demonic Pact would be a ~700 spell power buff when active. Is this really the case? I always saw this as a useless talent when combined with the Shammy.
*Edit* - The warlock was Farkuw and I saw him post his WWS that I looked at in the highest damage per spec thread.. Here it is
Demonic Pact with 5 points in it is 10% not 2%. It's 2% per point. Right now its still a bit broken. I believe they were supposed to fix it with the patch but it did not happen. It is currently not including spell power gained via the spirit to spellpower conversion of Fel Armor. So basically you need to have over 2800 spell power not including the spell power you gain from spirit for it to surpass the shaman totem. Other buffs that buff your spell power (like flasks and such) are included. I think someone on here said that right now you needed to be around 3k spell power buffed to really break the 2800 spell power without spirit conversion but really it depends on how much you are getting from spirit. The non spirit portion of fel armor is counted. I'm at about 33-3400 spell power when fully buffed (10 stacks of my Illustration of the Dragon Soul) so my demonic pact is more spell power than the shaman's totem and its uptime as long as the pet is alive (currently the only fight I am having a real problem keeping him alive is Sarth 2D & 3D, everything else including Sapphiron I usually am able unless something happens and I'm not paying close enough attention (most notable is a voidzone under melee on Kelthuzad and I don't notice quickly enough to pull him out, but that is a rare occurance) is over 90% of the time. So even with an elemental shaman in the raid with the spell power you are talking about you would probably get a bigger benefit from demonic pact than the shaman's totem.
Happy to collaborate with you on this Farkuw. I also switched to meta/ruin and see the potential of it in raids. The only fights this spec suffers is Thaddius and Loateb because our pets don't get the buffs that we get and it hurts our overall DPS numbers. Everywhere else it does very competitive damage (we roflpwn Faerlina).
Here is our guild WoW Meter Online which I've been using to track the spec. For reference purposes.. I'm meta/ruin (variation without demonic pact since I don't see the value with us running with a sham everynight). Raxle is afflication, Kushie is generally afflication, and Qwasz was running deep destro.
I still need some "time" in this spec but overall I've been quite surprised by it's potential. And Farkuw is right guys/gals it isn't just the meta burst that makes this spec good. Meta puts you over the top and shines in shorter fights (although I was surprised to see myself doing so well on a longer fight like KT.. check the fail one too.. almost had 3 meta's that fight).
The spreadsheet is good for helping you understand the value of CoD over CoA (even glyph'd) and that FG, Corr, Immo are the best glyphs for the spec. I wish we could get some of the analyst firepower here to understand the value of MC in this build and tweak for optimal DPS.
I did have hit problems last night though and that is a small downside to this build. You need to gem a little more for hit than other builds and I ended up swapping out a few +9 spellpower +8 haste gems for some hit rating. Check the WoW meter.. you can miss Immolation Aura FYI.
I also have put together some optimal high end gear for this build that stacks haste and spellpower with a few best in slot pieces that provide hit. I'll do another post with what that looks like so we can kick it around.
Friendly advice.. be careful when in meta with Patchwerk he has been known to do hatefuls on a buffed warlock in demon form. He happily ended my decent DPS last night with 2 well placed hatefuls.
Demonic Pact with 5 points in it is 10% not 2%. It's 2% per point. Right now its still a bit broken. I believe they were supposed to fix it with the patch but it did not happen. It is currently not including spell power gained via the spirit to spellpower conversion of Fel Armor. So basically you need to have over 2800 spell power not including the spell power you gain from spirit for it to surpass the shaman totem. Other buffs that buff your spell power (like flasks and such) are included. I think someone on here said that right now you needed to be around 3k spell power buffed to really break the 2800 spell power without spirit conversion but really it depends on how much you are getting from spirit. The non spirit portion of fel armor is counted. I'm at about 33-3400 spell power when fully buffed (10 stacks of my Illustration of the Dragon Soul) so my demonic pact is more spell power than the shaman's totem and its uptime as long as the pet is alive (currently the only fight I am having a real problem keeping him alive is Sarth 2D & 3D, everything else including Sapphiron I usually am able unless something happens and I'm not paying close enough attention (most notable is a voidzone under melee on Kelthuzad and I don't notice quickly enough to pull him out, but that is a rare occurance) is over 90% of the time. So even with an elemental shaman in the raid with the spell power you are talking about you would probably get a bigger benefit from demonic pact than the shaman's totem.
Thanks for the info. I might have to do a little respec back into demonic pact to see what the buff ends up for the raid. Does this proc on white crits as well as cleave crits? I wish they would change Demonic Empathy to crit off a Felguards white crits and not just cleave. I still have kept it for the buff to my FG's dmg, but it just doesn't seem worth it to me that far down in the tree and for 3 points.
Happy to collaborate with you on this Farkuw. I also switched to meta/ruin and see the potential of it in raids. The only fights this spec suffers is Thaddius and Loateb because our pets don't get the buffs that we get and it hurts our overall DPS numbers. Everywhere else it does very competitive damage (we roflpwn Faerlina).
Thanks for explaining that! Loatheb in particular has driven me nuts because I couldn't figure out why I always came out soooo much lower on that fight than others. I'm a bit lower on Thaddius than I would have thought I'd be but the discrepancy is smaller there for me. Usually I can pop Meta twice during a Thaddius kill and since we are already in melee range its really easy to use Immo both times. But Loatheb my damage is abysmal compared to all other fights. Now I can at least understand why.
--- Removed other reply as I was proven wrong in a later post.
Thanks for the info. I might have to do a little respec back into demonic pact to see what the buff ends up for the raid. Does this proc on white crits as well as cleave crits? I wish they would change Demonic Empathy to crit off a Felguards white crits and not just cleave. I still have kept it for the buff to my FG's dmg, but it just doesn't seem worth it to me that far down in the tree and for 3 points.
Demonic Pact will proc any pet crit. It's another reason why other pets aren't so hot for deep demo, none of the others hit the mob as often as he does, so DP time is less reliable.
Been watching this forum for quite sometime so i thought lets make an account.
I am using the 0/55/16 spec atm and using glyph of corr, fg and coa , as rotation
i use sb>corr>coa>meta>speedpot>sb sb sb sb etc till corr runs out and corr again
same with the coa when runs out, and ofcourse on meta i pop the immolation aura.
Btw what is the range of immolation aura, do i have to be rly close to bosses?
I am not using the immo glyph nor the skill to do dps and on the suffering targets
i do like 4.2k dps self buffed (1866sp non buffed) wich is quite alot more then 41/30 (wuch was 3.4kdps)
(training dummies in ogg, jaja)
Now im wondering am i using the right rotation, or should i include immo or even replace
corr-coa with it? , been reading alot of things here but cant find the correct answer.
In the last 20 posts most of your questions are answered.
1) Use CoD
2) Corr, Immo and FG Glyphs should be used.
3) Immolate is dps increase, use it.
4) Immo Aura range is 8yd, so use it after you charge.
Also for improvements on Loatheb, i notsiced this from my days deep destro, because the spores majorly buff crit i found it pointless to use any dot and either just spammed incinerate or a combo of imo/incin. For Demo id assume CoD, Corr, and SB spam would be best, Immo initial crit has its merits, but isb Bolts should win out id reckon in most cases. Im not sure if the Crit affects CoD when its applied or when it blows up, may be better to only Doom once you have the spore buff, would need confirmation on that.
Also if Immo aura cant crit, may be a dps loss, but the 20% shadow damage sure isnt
Been watching this forum for quite sometime so i thought lets make an account.
I am using the 0/55/16 spec atm and using glyph of corr, fg and coa , as rotation
i use sb>corr>coa>meta>speedpot>sb sb sb sb etc till corr runs out and corr again
same with the coa when runs out, and ofcourse on meta i pop the immolation aura.
Btw what is the range of immolation aura, do i have to be rly close to bosses?
I am not using the immo glyph nor the skill to do dps and on the suffering targets
i do like 4.2k dps self buffed (1866sp non buffed) wich is quite alot more then 41/30 (wuch was 3.4kdps)
(training dummies in ogg, jaja)
Now im wondering am i using the right rotation, or should i include immo or even replace
corr-coa with it? , been reading alot of things here but cant find the correct answer.
You should be using Immolate and CoD switching to CoA only when there is less than a minute left to the fight. You should switch glyphs to Immolate instead of CoA.
As far as rotation, I usually go: CoD/CoA, Corruption, Immolate since the first two are instants and that gets them up fast, then I start SB spamming until something needs refreshed. If its a Long fight and I can get in 2 Meta's then I will pop it right after I get the first round of DoTs up. If its a shorter fight then I'll save Meta for when we pop Bloodlust. If I'm going to use Meta twice I'll usually safe the Haste Pot until the 2nd Meta to get that final push of DPS in before the fight ends. For most fights I'll charge then immo aura at the start of Meta for the extra dps from immo aura. For some fights like say Sapphiron I found that wasn't very worth it. Running out lost me more dps than charging in and immo aura gained me, I could have used portal but its also risky cause what if a blizzard is over your portal location and you don't notice? I might try it one more time with using portal but if you don't use portal its not a good fight to do it on for sure.
I tried doing some napkin math to determine the answer
Comparing the dmg of CoA (unglyphed) & CoD over a 2 min duration we get (where x is spellpower)
5(1740+1.2x)=2(7300+2x)
8700+6x=14600+4x
2x=5900
x=2950
So with more than 2950 spellpower CoA will do more dmg than CoD.
Now I havent considered the reduced GCDs & reduced mana cost which are two factors in favor of CoD. However there are numerous other factors that are hard to model in favor of CoA such as increased molten core uptime, increased 2pc T7 proc rate, increased benefit from trinkets, procs & meta.
2950 sp power is easy to achieve for a fully buffed demo lock and CoA looks to scale better. I hope someone can accurately model CoA vs CoD with all factors taken into account and conclusively prove this one way or the other. Until then, I plan to stick to CoA.
Everyone can agree that Immolation aura is a huge boost to dps, but I'm curious if demon charge + immolation aura is worth casting. Right now for most Naxx fights I attempt to position myself close to the boss between instant casts, ie corruption/lifetap and CoD, when I know the Hero is coming for immolation aura in order to save myself the extra GCD. I would think that wasting 2 GCDs for immolation aura might not be worth it over the extra shadowbolt, especially duing heroism. Regardless if you can avoid using demon charge it is a dps increase, but can anyone confirm that demon charge + immolation aura is not worth it during herosim?
Question: so with the possibility of using Doomguard, how does he work for Demo spec: do you gain SP from his stam? Does he gain stats from you? Or is he like an enslaved pet that you gain nothing from?
Question: so with the possibility of using Doomguard, how does he work for Demo spec: do you gain SP from his stam? Does he gain stats from you? Or is he like an enslaved pet that you gain nothing from?
Just an enslaved pet with no other gain. I think the only talent in the whole tree that affects the doomguard is improved enslave demon.
Everyone can agree that Immolation aura is a huge boost to dps, but I'm curious if demon charge + immolation aura is worth casting. Right now for most Naxx fights I attempt to position myself close to the boss between instant casts, ie corruption/lifetap and CoD, when I know the Hero is coming for immolation aura in order to save myself the extra GCD. I would think that wasting 2 GCDs for immolation aura might not be worth it over the extra shadowbolt, especially duing heroism. Regardless if you can avoid using demon charge it is a dps increase, but can anyone confirm that demon charge + immolation aura is not worth it during herosim?
I think it's pretty clear that immolation is worth it, even if it costs two GCDs. With decent gear it ticks 15 times for 1500+, over 20k damage in total, or around 7k DPCT with no haste. Even a 15k SB crit is only 6k DPCT with no haste.
01/29/09, 6:45 AM
.... Still waiting on WWS but from recount numbers (for some reason they are usually different for me by about 200 dps) i came 1st on meters at about 5.7kdps. I had 48% crit rate with ele shaman and focus magic, woulda been nice if those retards didnt die 
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