Demonology Thread - Page 15

• Zakalwe · 01/29/09, 2:40 PM

Originally Posted by Akj

Just an enslaved pet with no other gain. I think the only talent in the whole tree that affects the doomguard is improved enslave demon.

Improved enslave demon does not affect the doomguard you summon with the ritual. It only affects demons that are actually enslaved with the enslave demon spell.

fip · 01/29/09, 2:50 PM

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

Improved enslave demon does not affect the doomguard you summon with the ritual. It only affects demons that are actually enslaved with the enslave demon spell.

So is he affected by Demonology talents as though you had summoned him normally, or does he get no benefit from anything?

Krathis · 01/29/09, 3:25 PM

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

I think it's pretty clear that immolation is worth it, even if it costs two GCDs. With decent gear it ticks 15 times for 1500+, over 20k damage in total, or around 7k DPCT with no haste. Even a 15k SB crit is only 6k DPCT with no haste.

We can't discount Life Tap or mana cost either here, especially when considering a spell with the mana cost Immolation Aura has.

Point being if Immolation Aura causes you to run dry during a Bloodlust or Meta (and especially during both) it's effective damage per cast time drops significantly because this is the last time you want to be spending globals on Life Tap.

I'm not saying Immolation Aura isn't worth using, because it is. But keep in mind the cost of it in global cooldowns and learn to work around it. If you know a bloodlust is coming at 25% and you're at 25% mana don't plan on charging the boss. Run to the boss and Life Tap while you close the gap. Pop Meta while you're already close to full mana and already in melee range.

Also, last build charge was buggy. I haven't played around with it in 3.08 but popping meta, hitting charge, and seeing your toon just stand there can be frustrating, especially if you're bloodlusted.

farkew · 01/29/09, 3:47 PM

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

In order to implement this in Simcraft, I need something much more accurate than "seems fairly low". Any chance you could take the time to test this on a training dummy with no buffs (not even fel armor) and pet dismissed? All I need to know is how much it hits for naked and how much it hits for with gear, plus what your spell power is when geared.

No worrys man, ill run that test for you on dummys tonight after work.

I did however test shadow cleave and here's what i found, shadow cleave is "on next melee swing" which means if you are spamming spells you never do a melee swing and therefore you never shadow cleave. I was spamming it in conjunction with SB in meta form and never got 1 SC off. Interesting thing about shadow cleave tho, it is affected by ISB and consumes ISB charges too.

Overall, you can forget about using shadow cleave, you will never get it off, and if you do you basically arent spamming your spells hard enough.

Bessa · 01/29/09, 3:54 PM

Originally Posted by fip

So is he affected by Demonology talents as though you had summoned him normally, or does he get no benefit from anything?

Only from buffs he recieves from the raid/grp bok, bom etc.

Also, aggree, the stand still charge bug is lame. Hope thats fixed before too much time passes.

KharzaXo · 01/29/09, 5:01 PM

Originally Posted by Akj

I'm not convinced that CoD is better than CoA just because the spreadsheet says so.

Looking at Farkuw's 6k dps patchwerk attempt it is clear that CoA in fact was higher dps.
WWS Loading...

I tried doing some napkin math to determine the answer
Comparing the dmg of CoA (unglyphed) & CoD over a 2 min duration we get (where x is spellpower)
5(1740+1.2x)=2(7300+2x)
8700+6x=14600+4x
2x=5900
x=2950

So with more than 2950 spellpower CoA will do more dmg than CoD.
Now I havent considered the reduced GCDs & reduced mana cost which are two factors in favor of CoD. However there are numerous other factors that are hard to model in favor of CoA such as increased molten core uptime, increased 2pc T7 proc rate, increased benefit from trinkets, procs & meta.

Here's a WWS of me using just CoA (glyphed)
Wow Web Stats

2950 sp power is easy to achieve for a fully buffed demo lock and CoA looks to scale better. I hope someone can accurately model CoA vs CoD with all factors taken into account and conclusively prove this one way or the other. Until then, I plan to stick to CoA.

Nice post and that does lead to doing some more analysis. I was hitting 3563 spell power raid buffed without trinket procs (we should think about that in these calcs too) so CoA would have been a clear win there. Seems to go against our long held beliefs that CoD scales better with higher spell damage though. I'll see if I can get some guildies to throw me some buffs and get my spelldmg over 3k and get some dummy data.

overg · 01/29/09, 5:25 PM

I'm not convinced that CoD is better than CoA just because the spreadsheet says so.

One other thing I think Agony has over Doom is a much better synergy with, well, Fel Synergy. It's probably not a make or break thing in a raid environment, especially post pet health buffs, but if all else is equal or pretty close I'd rather have the constant small heal tics than the once a minute large ones.

farkew · 01/29/09, 5:55 PM

Originally Posted by Akj

I'm not convinced that CoD is better than CoA just because the spreadsheet says so.

Looking at Farkuw's 6k dps patchwerk attempt it is clear that CoA in fact was higher dps.
http://wowwebstats.com/zd4pq1v1vs5fe...585&a=x1640be2

I tried doing some napkin math to determine the answer
Comparing the dmg of CoA (unglyphed) & CoD over a 2 min duration we get (where x is spellpower)
5(1740+1.2x)=2(7300+2x)
8700+6x=14600+4x
2x=5900
x=2950

So with more than 2950 spellpower CoA will do more dmg than CoD.
Now I havent considered the reduced GCDs & reduced mana cost which are two factors in favor of CoD. However there are numerous other factors that are hard to model in favor of CoA such as increased molten core uptime, increased 2pc T7 proc rate, increased benefit from trinkets, procs & meta.
Here's a WWS of me using just CoA (glyphed)
Wow Web Stats

2950 sp power is easy to achieve for a fully buffed demo lock and CoA looks to scale better. I hope someone can accurately model CoA vs CoD with all factors taken into account and conclusively prove this one way or the other. Until then, I plan to stick to CoA.

This is really great,

If you compare my WWS with yours, you will notice the fight times are VERY similar, our dps overall is VERY similar.

If you take a close look tho, you will notice that, my 2x CoD + fill in CoAs did do less damage than your pure CoA spam (not sure if yours was glyphed tho).

However this is where im convinced about CoD usage being better than CoA, look at the damage done by your SB compared to Mine, its not ALOT less, but its definitely less and that is more than likely related to more Free GCDs on my behalf because of using CoD as well as glyph of corruption (which procced 3 times). Also note that your SBs crit %age is much higher than mine but your overall SB damage was less than mine.

Overall tho, its obvious that both ways still put out respectable numbers. I would like to know tho, which stone are you using? Even tho i know that haste > crit point for point, i use firestone for the 1% DD mainly.

Akj · 01/29/09, 6:34 PM

Originally Posted by farkew

...
If you take a close look tho, you will notice that, my 2x CoD + fill in CoAs did do less damage than your pure CoA spam (not sure if yours was glyphed tho).

However this is where im convinced about CoD usage being better than CoA, look at the damage done by your SB compared to Mine, its not ALOT less, but its definitely less and that is more than likely related to more Free GCDs on my behalf because of using CoD as well as glyph of corruption (which procced 3 times). Also note that your SBs crit %age is much higher than mine but your overall SB damage was less than mine.

Overall tho, its obvious that both ways still put out respectable numbers. I would like to know tho, which stone are you using? Even tho i know that haste > crit point for point, i use firestone for the 1% DD mainly.

I cast CoA (glyphed) 6 times during that fight while you used CoD twice & CoA twice so the difference is just 2 GCDs. I think the difference in number of sbolts is more due to haste & latency. Note that I got 27 procs of demonic soul (2 pc T7) due to the use of CoA compared to only 8 for you. Overall both options are clearly very close but the fact that CoA scales better and helps with procs (molten core, demonic soul) seals it for me.

I was using a firestone too and I have a hunch spellstone vs firestone for demo is just as close as CoA vs CoD.

KharzaXo · 01/29/09, 6:49 PM

Originally Posted by Akj

I was using a firestone too and I have a hunch spellstone vs firestone for demo is just as close as CoA vs CoD.

Good stuff guys.. I think at lower haste levels you will probably see more bang for the buck using spellstone over firestone but as you start to approach the haste levels of Farkuw firestone might give you more return. I'll swap out my Glyph of Corruption for CoA and give it a whirl over CoD.

turturin · 01/29/09, 7:02 PM

Originally Posted by KharzaXo

Good stuff guys.. I think at lower haste levels you will probably see more bang for the buck using spellstone over firestone but as you start to approach the haste levels of Farkuw firestone might give you more return. I'll swap out my Glyph of Corruption for CoA and give it a whirl over CoD.

Yes. The spreadsheet will always say spellstone is better, but the difference in the dps number will decrease. In practice, if you get to a place where any combination of passive haste + procs + heroism gets any 1.5 spell down to 1 sec, the firestone becomes better. This happens at lower haste levels for backdraft destro builds but also to 0/41/30 or 0/31/40 builds.

Also, the higher your latency, the faster the difference between the two stones will decrease as your avg. haste rating increases.

kylaran · 01/29/09, 8:04 PM

One quick confirmation before I decide if I want to test out 0/41/30 FG/ES in next week's Naxx or if I should go straight for Meta/Ruin.

How likely is it that a warlock will pull aggro with Immolation aura? Threat is a big problem for me before I pop soulshatter. I reach my personal 110% omen raid warning very quickly on fights like Malygos (and some other ones, Patch usually isn't a problem because the tank is always putting out threat in comparison to the TPS loss in vortex), so I'm curious whether or not other warlocks have issues managing threat on certain fights. I don't want to pop meta early on a 4 minute fight and then have to pop soulshatter very early into the fight. I generally prefer to hit it around 50% in or so.

On the subject of warlocks being hit by hateful strike by Patchwerk, take off fort and put less points into the 1st tier stam point. :P

Does anyone know an AddOn or something that allows us to see how far away we are? That way we can stay at about 8-7 yrds and not be too worried about being hit.

dcpwns · 01/29/09, 10:07 PM

Wonder if other meta locks find it that casting DS is worth casting at 25%? I was getting 8.5-9.5k on 3 drakes. Was wondering if any lock does this or is thinking about it?

HordakIC · 01/30/09, 12:42 AM

I may have misread this, but I thought someone said your FG doesn't get hit with Sapphiron's deep breath. Mine just got vaporized in Naxx 10 by said breath.

Rozzenwyn · 01/30/09, 1:38 AM

Originally Posted by HordakIC

I may have misread this, but I thought someone said your FG doesn't get hit with Sapphiron's deep breath. Mine just got vaporized in Naxx 10 by said breath.

It won't get behind the ice tomb, what I do to keep him up through the breaths is pull him to me and then get behind the ice tomb myself, once there I start health funneling him until the breath is over and then I send him back in and start nuking. This keeps him up unless I miss pulling him out of a blizzard (sometimes my damage can keep him up through the blizzard, sometimes not, depends on if I'm having to move as well), or I get hit by a blizzard and am trying to get out and can't do enough damage to keep him up. As long as I watch the blizzards and keep us both out of them then health funneling him during the air phase is enough to keep him up until I can start doing damage again.

Also it depends on your gear level. When I first set foot into Naxx 10 man I could not keep him alive no matter what I did on that fight. I just didn't have the damage output that was necessary to keep him healed up from the constant aura damage. Now that I"m well geared he rarely dies anymore unless I really screw up like I said above.

farkew · 01/30/09, 1:58 AM

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

In order to implement this in Simcraft, I need something much more accurate than "seems fairly low". Any chance you could take the time to test this on a training dummy with no buffs (not even fel armor) and pet dismissed? All I need to know is how much it hits for naked and how much it hits for with gear, plus what your spell power is when geared.

Ok as promised here are the results...

Checked each one on 3 separate occasions with the same gear setup on the Grandmaster's Training Dummy.

naked - 577 per tick, 8081 damage overall

1981 sp - 917 per tick, 13759 damage overall (no pet, no fel armor)

2608 sp - 1076 per tick, 16140 damage overall (pet + fel armor)

Another thing to update, immolation aura CAN miss!

Hope this helps.

zerdell · 01/30/09, 2:26 AM

Originally Posted by HordakIC

I may have misread this, but I thought someone said your FG doesn't get hit with Sapphiron's deep breath. Mine just got vaporized in Naxx 10 by said breath.

Are you sure it wasn't blizzard / aura damage? I've done Naxx runs 25/10 in the past as meta/ruin and had the felguard take no damage from it. Last night, and the night before I did naxx10/25 as affliction and had the felhunter live through it.

• Zakalwe · 01/30/09, 4:07 AM

Originally Posted by farkew

Ok as promised here are the results...

Checked each one on 3 separate occasions with the same gear setup on the Grandmaster's Training Dummy.

naked - 577 per tick, 8081 damage overall

1981 sp - 917 per tick, 13759 damage overall (no pet, no fel armor)

2608 sp - 1076 per tick, 16140 damage overall (pet + fel armor)

Another thing to update, immolation aura CAN miss!

Hope this helps.

Can anyone else make sense of these numbers? Unbuffed and with no pet out, his damage should only be boosted by 20% from meta. The tooltip says it ticks for 451, meaning when he's naked it should be ticking for 451 * 1.2 = 541, not 577.

Can you think of any reason you'd be doing 7-8% more damage than expected, farkew?

EDIT: The only way the numbers make sense is if the base damage is 482 rather than 451. This puts the spell power coefficient at 14.3%. Can you check what your in-game tooltip says for the immolation aura?

farkew · 01/30/09, 9:28 AM

i made tripple sure that my spell power was 0 and i had 0 buffs. also there were no debuffs on the dummy also.

Ill test this again and will make sure once more that i have no buffs what so ever and will post the results here.

EDIT: Just tested again, 0 buffs, 0 debuffsd on the dummy, 0 spellpower. 100% confirmed ticking for 577 per tick.

Tooltip says 453.

Nymmash · 01/30/09, 10:15 AM

The ability might be scaling with level since it was doing the same amount of damage at level 60. Maybe a "naked" Shadow Cleave test would confirm/infirm that.

Akj · 01/30/09, 10:47 AM

The tooltip for immolation aura says 453 per tick and if a felguard is out that's an additional 5% damage from MD.

Bessa · 01/30/09, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by kylaran

One quick confirmation before I decide if I want to test out 0/41/30 FG/ES in next week's Naxx or if I should go straight for Meta/Ruin.

How likely is it that a warlock will pull aggro with Immolation aura? Threat is a big problem for me before I pop soulshatter. I reach my personal 110% omen raid warning very quickly on fights like Malygos (and some other ones, Patch usually isn't a problem because the tank is always putting out threat in comparison to the TPS loss in vortex), so I'm curious whether or not other warlocks have issues managing threat on certain fights. I don't want to pop meta early on a 4 minute fight and then have to pop soulshatter very early into the fight. I generally prefer to hit it around 50% in or so.

On the subject of warlocks being hit by hateful strike by Patchwerk, take off fort and put less points into the 1st tier stam point. :P

Does anyone know an AddOn or something that allows us to see how far away we are? That way we can stay at about 8-7 yrds and not be too worried about being hit.

Patchwerk has no aggro table, thats why ranged can just nuke away and melee dont need to worry, recieving hatefuls is the problem of the healers, not yours, afcourse this is dependant on how many tanks you run. if your a guild that runs minimum number of tanks then you will probably need to remove your fort.

Can always use Soulshatter before Meta to decrease your threat, simple macro like this would work (charge bugs aside) /castsequence reset=combat/target Soulshatter, Metamorphosis, Demon Charge, Immolation Aura

Akj · 01/30/09, 11:12 AM

There seems to be a lot of misinformation here about hateful strikes. Read the below post to see how it actually works.

WotLK: Naxxramas

Just pop meta->demonic charge after all your tanks have taken hateful strikes and you should be fine.

Bessa · 01/30/09, 11:48 AM

He just stated he get gibbed by Hateful when he popped Meta on Patch, now "normally" your using Hero/BL around 40%, so surely the tanks recieved hatefuls by that time, explain how he recieved one.

HordakIC · 01/30/09, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Rozzenwyn

It won't get behind the ice tomb, what I do to keep him up through the breaths is pull him to me and then get behind the ice tomb myself, once there I start health funneling him until the breath is over and then I send him back in and start nuking. This keeps him up unless I miss pulling him out of a blizzard (sometimes my damage can keep him up through the blizzard, sometimes not, depends on if I'm having to move as well), or I get hit by a blizzard and am trying to get out and can't do enough damage to keep him up. As long as I watch the blizzards and keep us both out of them then health funneling him during the air phase is enough to keep him up until I can start doing damage again.

Also it depends on your gear level. When I first set foot into Naxx 10 man I could not keep him alive no matter what I did on that fight. I just didn't have the damage output that was necessary to keep him healed up from the constant aura damage. Now that I"m well geared he rarely dies anymore unless I really screw up like I said above.

My gear's decent and I ended up doing exactly that - pulling him to me and just having him stand behind blocks. I could usually keep him through Blizzards, but rather than risk his dying I just sacrificed some dps. As a note, this was just an off night fun thing - I'm in mostly 25 capable gear.

Are you sure it wasn't blizzard / aura damage? I've done Naxx runs 25/10 in the past as meta/ruin and had the felguard take no damage from it. Last night, and the night before I did naxx10/25 as affliction and had the felhunter live through it.

Yeah I'm certain it was the breath - he had some 20k health remaining when the breath hit.