So is what I'm gathering that because I was using CoE instead of CoA, it was not beneficial for me to use the gcd on corruption? Is keeping a curse and corruption up after <35% wrong? Maybe I'll go try it out on the test dummies and see the results.
atm the only dot worthy to keep up under 35% is immolate, because MC is procced by the SBs
If 3.3 goes live as its atm in the PTR imo you should try to use CoA, or if you're on CoE duty, corr in order to gain MC proc, beneficial for both soulfire and immo
The point now is: immo under 35% Y/N?
I've yet to test it in a raid environment unfortunately
* Decimation now reduces the cast time of your Soul Fire spell by 20/40% (Down from 30/60%)
* Molten Core now gives Your Shadow spells and damage over time effects have a 12% chance to increase the damage done by your Incinerate by 15% and Soul Fire by 4/7/10% for 12 sec.
* Conflagrate now deals damage equal to 60% of your Immolate or Shadowflame and causes 20% additional damage over 6 sec.
Well this pretty well hurts. Especially with the specs DPS contingent so much on the execute phase, the specific exclusion on immolate with the molten core change also seems pointless.
To be honest, we can't really say much about the state of demo at this point for 3.3, at least not until the impending pet scaling changes are implemented on the PTR.
Either way, it was to be expected, the jump in DPS between execute range and non execute range was just too big of a gap.
The question now is if incinerate is worth casting when fully talented MC procs are up, and whether this means that incinerate glyph would be worth it over meta glyph. Kinda sucks about it not affecting or immolate or immolation aura though...
Congratulations, Demonology Thread, on going to shit over the past 16 hours. I just removed the last ten posts because they all sucked. Every one of them.
Let's keep the blind speculation, asinine behavior and wishlisting out of this thread, okay? Ewinessa has a very good point that we can't tell much about the state of Demonology at this point, and rehashing the same patch notes, flaming each other, or posting just to say "Yup" or "LOL" doesn't help the quality of the thread at all.
To be honest, we can't really say much about the state of demo at this point for 3.3, at least not until the impending pet scaling changes are implemented on the PTR.
Either way, it was to be expected, the jump in DPS between execute range and non execute range was just too big of a gap.
The question now is if incinerate is worth casting when fully talented MC procs are up, and whether this means that incinerate glyph would be worth it over meta glyph. Kinda sucks about it not affecting or immolate or immolation aura though...
I'd love some further review on the napkin math in that thread, but in short, you wouldn't want to cast incinerate during molten core (Hell it's become a pretty bad talent overall).
[edit] Snippet from the thread about moltencore/incinerate:
Molten Core change: There's 2 changes to this talent, the first change is that the talent used to have a set proc (+10% damage), and increased proc chance with the number of talent points spent (as opposed to set proc chance with increased oric value), the second change is that it now no longer effects immolate and immolation aura, but grants 5% extra damage on incinerate. Only deep demo locks never use incinerate.
First I will talk about the second change, damage:
Shadow Bolt:
Base damage: 690-770 (730.00 avg)
Base spellpower scaling: 3/3.5=0.8571
Talents: Improved Shadow Bolt (+5% damage), Bane (-0.5s Cast time)
Incinerate:
Base damage: 582-676 + 145.5-169.0 (786.25 avg)
Base spellpower scaling: 2.5/3.5=0.7143
Talents: Molten Core (+ 5/10/15% damage)
Lets take a lock with 2600 spellpower and 600 spirit unbuffed, that's going to be more or less entry level icecrown.
Base: 2700
Flask: 125
Food: 46
Proffs: 92
Fel Armor: (180*1.3) + ((600+80+52)*1.1*(0.3*1.3+0.2))=709
Demonic Knowledge: ~450
Demonic pact: 10%
Total: 4533 (For those of you who think this is probably too much, this is less than I currently have raid buffed)
Damage of those 2 spells:
Shadow Bolt: (730+(0.8571*4533))*1.05=4846.1
Incinerate 1/3 MC: (786.25+(0.7143*4533))*1.05=4225.4
Incinerate 2/3 MC: (786.25+(0.7143*4533))*1.05=4426.6
Incinerate 3/3 MC: (786.25+(0.7143*4533))*1.05=4627.8
Incinerate 3/3 MC, Glyph of Incinerate: 4627.8*1.06=4905.5
Right so, if we glyphed incinerate and talented molten core 3/3 then we'll do 50 damage more every 2 seconds while molten core is up. How much will molten core be up?
Corruption ticks once per 3 seconds, which gives us 4 ticks per 12 seconds (molten core duration), the chance for it to not proc in 12 seconds is 0.88^4=0.6. The chance for it to have procced in that time is thus 40%. If we add shadow bolt in there with a hasted 2 second cast time, and we assume we cast immolate and corruption still then we spend 100% - (3/((15+18)/2))=82% of our time casting shadow bolt, that is ~5 shadowbolts per 12 seconds. So we get 1-0.88^(4+5)=68% uptime on molten core when spamming shadowbolt.
If we have 68% uptime while casting shadow bolts, and 40% when it is up, then 68% of the time we have a 40% chance to proc it within the uptime period, it'd get a bit complicated to get the exact uptime considering all this, but lets say we're being generous if we give it 60% uptime total.
So with 3 talent points and a glyph, incinerate will do 50 extra damage every 2 seconds, 60% of the time, until 35% at which point we stop casting incinerate entirely. Which makes for a total dps increase of 50/2*0.6*0.65=9.75 DPS (with 3 talent points and a glyph).
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.
Molten Core: Redesigned. This talent now increases the duration of Immolate by 3/6/9 seconds and provides a 4/8/12% chance to gain the Molten Core effect when Corruption deals damage. The Molten Core effect empowers the next 3 Incinerate or Soul Fire spells cast within 15 seconds (Incinerate: increases damage done by 6/12/18% and reduces cast time by 10/20/30%; Soul Fire: increases damage done by 6/12/18% and increases critical strike chance by 5/10/15%). Molten Core now has a new spell effect.
Immolate would last 24s and Conflagrate will hit for 0.8 * 24s worth of damage all up. With 3000sp, it would see 13,512 damage pre-crit (Glyph * Pyroclasm * Emberstorm * Improved Immolate * Aftermath).
I haven't been following Warlocks at all, so forgive me if I've linked some poor higher Destro/Demo talents or if the effects are additive not multiplicative. I expect I've made an error so please correct me.
Last edited by Ablimoth : 10/20/09 at 9:38 PM.
Reason: Correcting Error
EDIT, I also apologize for not reading the EDIT above correctly, my comment is obsolete...
no it wont
Conflagrate: Redesigned. This talent now consumes an Immolate or Shadowflame effect on the enemy target to instantly deal damage equal to 9 seconds of Immolate or 8 seconds of Shadowflame, and causes additional damage over 3 seconds equal to 3 seconds of Immolate or 2 seconds of Shadowflame. In addition, the periodic damage of Conflagrate is capable of critically striking the afflicted target.
even if your Immolate will last 24 seconds, the damage is still calculated from only 12 of them.
I wonder if the DP dps is being kept in check due to the spec replacing Totem of Wrath, making DP the premier raid buffing spec. We all know about the hybrid tax, perhaps there's a DP tax as well. The prior version of Decimation had DP on top of Zakalwe's simulations, however I don't consider his use of Immolation (36 seconds) to be realistic, so lets say the potential for DP with the 30/60 Decimation was only slightly below Destruction and Affliction.
Wow now the changes look much more interesting, and I have a few questions)
Does this change makes Incinerate better than SB under the effect of Molten Core(from the math provided by warlockomotif, I think yes )? And will it be usefull for demo-warlock to use incinerate glyph?
Has anyone else tested the new MC? The immo duration part isn't working yet, and the tooltip isn't updated but the cast time definitly is reduced, the charges work (cept for the fact that you can cast 4) and there is an increase in damage for incinerate.
My issue is that, even with a ~1.4sec cast time, my incinerates crit for around 7300, and my SB with a ~2.0 cast time crits for arou d 9k. Here are some data on a level 80 test dummy using Meta/FG/LT glyph.(removed cloak/lightweave and stacking trinket to have steady stats)
On the left, 40 incinerates with only spellstone/fel armor. On the Right, 40 incinerates with MC up (1.45sec cast), same buffs/stats.
Quick math shows that :
hit : 3259 -> 3630 = 14.9% damage increase. (Should be around 3846 with full 18%)
crit: 6602 -> 7586 = 14.7% damage increase. (Should be around 7790 with full 18%)
Now compare this to SB with a normal 0/56/15 spec:
Which gives us :
hit 3962 per 2.06 sec cast.
crit 8272 per 2.06 sec cast.
Now, assuming the 18% increase for incinerate is bugged, we get, using the expected numbers:
3846 hit damage per 1.45 sec cast vs 3962 hit damage for 2.06 second cast.
Conclusion and comments:
First of all, it seems that YES, it will be a dps increase in theory but I feel that demon is getting more and more difficult to manage with all the 3 dots, 3 nukes, pet and player CDs, pet management, glyph uptime, etc, I wonder if the player mistakes in rotation will nullify the extra damage. The Soul fire part of it, damage increase and crit chance, certainly is synergetic with decimation and is an amazing damage boost.
As for the current MC,
-it still procs off ANY shadow damage (proc'ed off my SB spam for test).
-The charge expires when the incinerate LANDS, so we can currently always fit a 4th incinerate.
-The 18% damage bonus is bugged and is currently only 15%
EDIT: I haven't yet explored this talent in combo with Glyph of incin and glyph of quick decay. This may be something that Simulations will be helpful for, once we can model Glyph of quick decay.
Perhaps the 4th incinerate that you manage to cast does benefit from the haste because the haste is active at the start of the cast, but not from the damage bonus damage because it's gone by the time you finish the cast? Purely speculative, and not really supported by your numbers- but a possible anwser.
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.
Caveat: for now I assume that the announced changes stay as stated (konwing that they can and probably will change until 3.3 goes live).
I've 3 questions:
1. With the announced changes to Molten Core, am I right to assume thar demo-locks should fully specc into it, i.e. 3 points? And if so, where would I take the third talent point away? Right now I'm thinking of moving 1 point from Demonic Knowledge into Molten Core, or maybe shifting 1 point from Improved Demonic tactics to MC, although that would lower DP uptime.
2. I'd like to test Glyph of Quick Decay (faster Corr-ticks = higher MC uptime). But I'm wondering which Glyph to "sacrifice" for it. certainly not Felguard and probably not Life Tap, either. That leaves Metamorphosis. I know that it's still uncertain if Quick Decay is a viable choice fpr Demo at all, but is my thinking correct thus far?
3. Assuming a mage will provide the 5% crit-debuff on the target, would it be viable not to cast SB at all, and consequently not specc into ISB, instad putting the points into Aftermath and Cataclysm?
I'm looking forward to any informed input/educated guesses.
well, its still a bit early to say if glyph of quick decay is better than meta glyph, as we cannot yet test how much haste is affecting corruption, but i imagine that if theres a fair amount of haste % considered by the glyph then demo locks -that usually have at least 800 haste- will benefit more from the new glyph
When a mob is under 35% should we forget about curse of doom/agony and just use keep immolate and corruption up while spamming soul fires? Haven't had a chance to get on the PTR yet to test whether curse of doom is worth keeping up.
Also would it be beneficial to do a shadow bolt every once in a while just to keep up the 5% crit buff if there is noone else doing it?
When a mob is under 35% ...
Also would it be beneficial to do a shadow bolt every once in a while just to keep up the 5% crit buff if there is noone else doing it?
No question. 5% crit for all the casters in the raid is always more important than personal dps.
After testing the new MC on the PTR, I can confirm that the immolation duration part of it is fixed, as well as the extra damage on incinerate being 18%, rather than 15%.
The charge still expire when the spell lands though, and not when it finishes casting.
Additionally, there does not appear to be an internal cooldown on this new Molten Core (I was getting it back to back a lot), and it does seem it no longer procs from anything but Corruption as I have yet to get a proc from using just Curse of Agony and Shadow Bolt.
Last edited by Nehrak : 10/23/09 at 9:54 PM.
Reason: Removed incorrect statement.
Secondly, Glyph of Quick Decay is bugged, as it still lasts 18 seconds (I'm sporting over 500 haste myself), so no way to tell how beneficial it is yet. :/
That is incorrect. I am testing it now using Fortexorcist. The issue that makes it APPEAR bugged is that the glyph does NOT correct the duration of the spell (18sec). Here is what I gathered so far:
-Haste DOES make faster ticks, but mods don't make the difference yet.
-You ALWAYS get 6 ticks, you can NEVER "squeeze" one more tick with more haste.
-Right after the 6th tick, Corr drops off.
At 825 haste, Forte shows approx. 3.3s left on Corruption when the 6th tick happens and the dot falls off the dummy.
thus, with 25.16% haste (825), corruption duration is reduced by ~18%.
I will wait for a Simcraft guru to run the numbers, but I don't see this glyph being that amazing for demon. YES you get more procs of MC, but you will also lose a lot more GCD's over the course of a fight casting Corruption.
I think this glyph will be better put to use for affliction, where they can just refresh VIA haunt, as long as Corruption has more than ~9sec overall duration (which would take over ~2291 haste anyways).
Ok, so I've always read this forum a lot, but never posted. But, I do have a question/suggestion. With the changes to MC, and the lack of an internal CD, would it not be more efficient to drop SB from the Demo rotation entirely? I'm not good at crunching the numbers myself, but it since Incinerate under the MC effect is much more effective than SB, and since MC is proccing quite often on the ptr, often back to back, it seems the simplest solution is to drop SB from the rotation, pick up the glyph of incin instead of Life Tap, and use that as the permanent filler over SB. This will allow for less user error during the rotation, and with the frequency of MC procs and longer duration of Immolate (to add to Incin damage) it would be a better dps increase overall, instead of messing up a more complicated rotation dependent on glyph up time and paying attention to procs.
The only foreseeable downside is the without the LT glyph Demonic Pact will not be as high as it otherwise would have been, but assuming around 600 spirit, it's only a 12 sp loss. Thoughts?
You really don't get that many procs, I normally get ~1 proc per corruption, rarely back to back. there is no point in casting incinerate if you dont have talents to buff it since its damage is really low, so I doubt you wanna stop using SB.
and LT glyph is just too good to not use, I mean, one of the only reason to spec into demon, considering its lower dps, is to buff your raid, so why compromise?
I seem unable to find a post on this matter, so please point me in the right direction. The main thread also doesn't have a number crunch explaining which stat is better overall.
I am deciding between two bracers. One I have all of the mats for, the other I have equipped.
They are very similar, but the 245 ones have a little bit more spirit/int/sp on them, but it has CRIT instead of haste. When looking at gear for itemization, which would be the better way to go? Crit or haste.
Hi guys, i'm testing demono on PTR and i find myself in trouble about how i should play my heavy demono spec (0/56/15)
In fact i've got 2 options, changing glyph( there are 2 glyph i must take, connection and felquard) and stone (fire or spellstone)...
The first one is the most conventional way, i put firestone and meta as third glyph, on dummies with my gear (not a premade char) i throw about 3.5k dps .
The second option is to replace meta glyph with quick decay glyph, and using spellstone. And with 22.5% haste i get the same dps (depending on rng).
I think the stone choice is not that bad with the second option, because my dps is 75% nukes and 25% dots... so ok i loose 0.75% direct damage but i gain 0.25% dot damage, and all in all i gain 20% more dps on corrupt, which puts it from 12.5 to 15% of my dps, so the problem is not there (anyway without glyph of quick decay the spellstone will benefit the conventional spec a little less).
But on the other side , i get more burst dps during the first minute of the fight (about 4k dps) with my meta glyph spec because metamorphosis lasts longer
And of course with the second option i get more Molten core procs...
So if someone could make some theorycraft to know what is the best option ( i think the 2 options will be close because i didn't had any opinion while testing myself) it would be great for the demonology lock players ^^ .
Edit: sorry for my english i'm a french player xD .
10/13/09, 3:09 PM
)? And will it be usefull for demo-warlock to use incinerate glyph?
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