To the above poster (serra) I would highly recommend monitoring the Simulationcraft thread for optimum glyph setups as new patch information becomes available. For the moment though I can say that you will be best served sticking with the Spellstone for all Demo setups, the scale factors for this spec place haste far above crit and with the huge bonus from Master Conjuror there is no reason not to run with Spellstone. As for glyphs, Life Tap and Felguard are pretty much necessary, the main debate as I have seen it is between Metamorphasis and Quick Decay. At the moment, Quick Decay doesn't seem to be proving useful enough for Demo, the added MC procs don't make up for the extra GCDs used on casting Corruption.
To Daisil, if you're going to get crafted bracers I would go with the [Bejeweled Wizard's Bracers] instead, unless you're trying to gear exclusively for a max DPact bonus. You lose some spellpower from the spirit, but the haste more than makes up for it. Because of the insane amount of crit built into both T9 gear and the Demo spec itself, I try to run haste in my offset pieces as often as possible.
As a first time poster/long time lurker, this leads to my first question to the Demo community: How much do you balance personal dps vs the DPact bonus? I realize the DPact bonus is a huge part of why we raid as Demo, the other part being ISB and a love for tall armored gents with Arcanite Reapers, but with haste scaling better than spellpower for most gear levels I tend to run a lot of haste gear and gem full spectrum for boosts to personal dps vs. spirit gear and pure Runed gems for the maximum DPact output.
but with haste scaling better than spellpower for most gear levels I tend to run a lot of haste gear and gem full spectrum for boosts to personal dps vs. spirit gear and pure Runed gems for the maximum DPact output.
Haste is barely more personal DPS than spellpower, and no raid DPS. If you're the DP provider for your raid you should be maximizing spellpower (to maximize the raid DPS gain) since you're already taking the personal DPS loss of that spec.
How much do you balance personal dps vs the DPact bonus?
This all depends on your raid composition. For example, my raid runs ~ 8-10 caster dps on pretty much every boss. If I were to add 10 haste to my gear, I would gain a small amount of personal dps. If I add 10 spell power to my gear, I am effectively adding 1 spell power to each caster, which will more than make up for (very) slight loss in personal DPS.
When you extrapolate this over an entire gearset, you will find that becoming the "buff bitch" for your raid is quite the large increase. In my current gearset, I have approximately 4650 raid buffed spell power. This gives 185 spellpower over Totem of Wrath, and is effectively a flask and a half for every caster in the raid.
This is also not including the buff to healers that comes from the spellpower upgrade, which can be useful in certain high-HPS situations.
This is fairly simple. Assume 1 haste gives you roughly 1 dps and 1 SP gives you 0.7 dps (a bit understated). Also assume there are 10 dps casters in your raid, and for every SP they gain they receive about 0.8 dps per person(again understated). So for every 10 SP you gain, they will receive 1 SP per person, which will result 0.8 dps*10 = 8 dps in total. So roughly for every SP you gain you also grant the raid 0.8 dps. Here you have about 1 to 1.5 haste to SP total dps ratio.
For every spirit you get, you get about 1*1.1*(0.39+0.2) = 0.65 SP, so you will have about 1 to 1.5*0.65, or 1 to 0.97 haste to spirit total dps ratio. This is after removing every other benefit spirit gives, such as bigger lifetap, aka less downtime. Not to mention healers receive benefit from SP as well, which is not a measurement of dps but is important aspect of DP.
So in conclusion, when you have a haste to SP dps ration of 1 to 0.7, spirit is at least on bar better with if not better than haste on a point to point basis.
I may be a little bit dated on this info but I guess my most burning question for demo locks out there now is in current 3.2 fight situations E.G. Gormok, Jaraxxus etc, from log parses it seems a norm to pop Meta at <35% for maximum dps, using the glyph to get in that extra bit of up-time.
My main question is from these same parses I notice alot of different usage of the standard demo dots. Some advocate dropping corruption, keeping immolate and CoA up, while others drop every dot and just Soul Fire weave. Currently, I tend to refresh all my dots-corruption, CoA and immolate the moment they drop off during a Meta Phase <35% but a part of me does question whether it is worth the global cooldown usage when I could be bolting and soul-fire weaving during the limited 36 sec window I have. After all, molten core can proc off the shadow bolt anyway.
I'm not suure where this post belongs so I placed it here in the demonology thread. I have recently been asked by my guild to be a part of a 5 man rotation to apply the 5% critt debuff on the bosses in our ToTC 25 man runs. I could really use some help here as I have been informed my turn in the barrel will be on Sunday....yikes!
As a utility for the raid, they would like my secondary spec to be in Demonology. Since I hav played the Demo Lock before, I agreed to start my research.
Besides taking 5 points in improved Shadow Bolt I am told I will need the Glyph of Shadow Bolt so I can cast it once for the effect and won't have to spam 5 SB's to stack the effect.
My questions are:
Is there a desent talent tree that I can try without sacrificing a ton of dps?
What is the best choice for re-glyphing?
Anyone find a decent rotation for this?
I sure would appreciate any help I can get with this. I stopped playing the demon spec because it just didn't compete well with the other specs in raid and I'm worried this will take the enjoyment out of the game for me.
I'm not suure where this post belongs so I placed it here in the demonology thread. I have recently been asked by my guild to be a part of a 5 man rotation to apply the 5% critt debuff on the bosses in our ToTC 25 man runs. I could really use some help here as I have been informed my turn in the barrel will be on Sunday....yikes!
As a utility for the raid, they would like my secondary spec to be in Demonology. Since I hav played the Demo Lock before, I agreed to start my research.
Besides taking 5 points in improved Shadow Bolt I am told I will need the Glyph of Shadow Bolt so I can cast it once for the effect and won't have to spam 5 SB's to stack the effect.
My questions are:
Is there a desent talent tree that I can try without sacrificing a ton of dps?
What is the best choice for re-glyphing?
Anyone find a decent rotation for this?
I sure would appreciate any help I can get with this. I stopped playing the demon spec because it just didn't compete well with the other specs in raid and I'm worried this will take the enjoyment out of the game for me.
Whoever told you about the Glyph isn't right. the glyph of SB only decreases the mana cost of SB. The 5/5 talent procs 5% with one cast of SB, not stacking like what mages have currently.
Otherwise, most info on page 1 is still decently accurate to this day.
I'm not suure where this post belongs so I placed it here in the demonology thread. I have recently been asked by my guild to be a part of a 5 man rotation to apply the 5% critt debuff on the bosses in our ToTC 25 man runs. I could really use some help here as I have been informed my turn in the barrel will be on Sunday....yikes!
As a utility for the raid, they would like my secondary spec to be in Demonology. Since I hav played the Demo Lock before, I agreed to start my research.
Besides taking 5 points in improved Shadow Bolt I am told I will need the Glyph of Shadow Bolt so I can cast it once for the effect and won't have to spam 5 SB's to stack the effect.
My questions are:
Is there a desent talent tree that I can try without sacrificing a ton of dps?
What is the best choice for re-glyphing?
Anyone find a decent rotation for this?
I sure would appreciate any help I can get with this. I stopped playing the demon spec because it just didn't compete well with the other specs in raid and I'm worried this will take the enjoyment out of the game for me.
* You dont need the glyph, just 5/5 improved shadow bolt
* The only spec that doesn't lose you a ton of personal dps is affliction
* Demonic Pact however is a very, very valueable raid buff. the raid dps gain certainly outweighs the personal dps loss.
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.
Demo certainly doesn't do as much damage as the likes of Affliction and Destruction, but i wouldn't disregard it. I recently specced into it and on the first day of trying i hit 6.3k dps on Koralon, topping the meters and beating destro locks. As destro i probably would have done over 7k, but 6.3k is absolutely fine for the level of raiding i do and to say it will help others in the group it is certainly worth it.
You have to remember that this is a game and this is fun. Sometimes it's nice to have a break from all the meter competition. When you are raiding, you are a team. It is nice to hit numbers, but the playstyle for demo is also extremely fun and this can definitely improve your performance in alot of ways. I am having to time my cooldowns for certain phases on a fights, mess with macros, think about raid tactics much much more. I feel so much more involved and useful in the raid because i'm not just standing there spamming incinerate and making sure immolate is up and being the 'burst bitch', i am keeping three dots up, thinking about when i am going to pop meta and preparing for the execute phase.
This is all a matter of opinion, but i'll throw in a fact. If you are in a serious raiding guild working through progression content, you are a team and you have to look at it from a raids point of view. What would you rather have, a destruction warlock doing a huge amount of damage? Or a demo warlock doing a good amount of damage (not the highest though) and buffing the other casters dps (who may need it) by over 500 each plus?
500 might be a bit unrealistic in most cases. I have about 4200 Spellpower raidbuffed, but you have to subtract 280 from the toem of wrath.
How much Spellpower does Demonic Knowledge give you in T9 gear nowadays? about 400 ?
I assume you´ll have about 4500-4700 Spellpower in Full T10, so your buff gives about 180 more Spellpower. than a elemental shaman. This would still be more than 1000 Raid-DPS and HPS, so Demo really sounds like worth playing.
Just to note i was purely coming from a 10 man raiders perspective. We run with three casters including myself, and three healers, so it will benefit five players not including myself. I ran a raid setup through simcraft with me as demo and it turned out one of the casters would gain 900 dps the other 600 dps. I am guessing this is to do with scaling? The 900 dps was from a moonkin, the 600 a mage. Overall i worked it out as 540,000 overall raid damage, which is enough to save a 1% or even up to 3% wipe in a ten man raid.
I would also like to add we rarely run with an elemental shaman, often not having a shaman at all in our 10man raids thus we haven't had any spell power or even crit debuff until now, hence the simcraft numbers. If i added an elemental shaman to the simcraft, it would increase it further but by a smaller margin.
Something that doesn't appear to be discussed(or maybe I just missed it, sorry if that's the case):
Does the new Molten Core make weaving Incinerates pre-execute range ideal, or is it better to just spam shadow bolts?
I assume it's better to keep Immo and Corr up the entire fight and cast 3 incinerates every time molten core procs?
You missed it either in this thread or the simcraft one.
With the MC buff, incinerate has a higher DPET than shadow bolt even if you are not specced into Emberstorm.
0/56/15:
Spam Sbolt when MC buff is not present
MC Procs spam Incinerate
< 35% spam Soul Fire once you gain Decimation while maintaining ISB debuff with a shadow bolt approximately every 30s.
0/41/30 or 0/40/31:
Spam Incinerate regardless of MC procs
Spam Soulfire under 35% once you gain Decimation.
As far as Immolate and Corruption are concerned, their DPET still warrants them being casted if the dots will tick for the full duration. Corruption will also keep up MC which increases Soul Fire damage below 35%.
As i tend to respec Demo with the patch, I experimented around with simcraft.
I imported my current gear and tested diffrend talent combinations and spell rotations. My only goal was to include Demonic Pact and ended up with the following simulation as the *best.
My Overrides included a 0/50/21 talent spec, and a Rotation based on keeping up Corruption + Immolate (even under 35%) and spamming Incinerate or Soul Fire.
Hm, it was mentioned earlier but I didn't see any response, where should we get the 3rd point for molten core from? I'm assuming nemesis.. as I see it its between that (higher meta uptime to match the use trinket cooldown better), improved demonic pact (higher demonic pact uptime), and demonic empowerment (boosts dp uptime a bit, off gcd.. not a great personal dps increase as I understand it).
What do you think?
Using this as a base..
What would now be the best places now to put those last 2 points, and the 3rd glyph slot, given the changes?
Also, firestone/spellstone.. firestone if you're the DP lock, spellstone otherwise, or?
Hm, it was mentioned earlier but I didn't see any response, where should we get the 3rd point for molten core from? ...Also, firestone/spellstone.. firestone if you're the DP lock, spellstone otherwise, or?
Common consensus seems to be that Demonic Empowerment is the odd man out. Would be nice to see some number crunching for it, but it's got to be a toss-up between that and Improved Demonic tactics. With crit ratings as they are, even without 2T9, Demonic Pact is basically always up. I wonder more about the personal DPS loss difference than the uptime on DP in this case. Nemesis doesn't really stand as a candidate for dropping, especially since it gives you more Demonic Empowerments.
As for Firestone vs Spellstone, I believe (correct me if I am wrong here) that it's all about Spellstone even if you are the DP lock. The boost from Firestone shouldn't increase DP, since it's a damage boost to direct damage spells, not a spellpower boost.
Though it is a boost to the DP uptime, with the crit.. however, I suppose thats not worth it compared to the personal dps gain on that haste.. meh :p
That about nemesis and demonic empowerment hadn't occured to me, god knows why..
Soo.. both of those means highest demonic empowerment uptime, and 20% haste to your felg means more DP proccs which helps the uptime of that, right? So the loss from imp demonic tacts will be lessened.. and the personal dps boost from meta uptime ought to compensate for it?
Edit: So, now...
Molten Core now increases the duration of your Immolate by 3/6 sec. and give you a 4/8% chance to gain the Molten Core effect.
Forgive me for not being on the PTR.. does this mean that if you re-cast immolate, it lasts longer? Or it increases the time of a current immolate? Also, it only shows 3/6, 4/8... rather than 3/6/9%, 4/8/12%? Whats happened to this now?
On another note, would it be worth re-summoning to get an imp out when you start soulfire-executing at the end of a fight?
So, now...
Molten Core now increases the duration of your Immolate by 3/6 sec. and give you a 4/8% chance to gain the Molten Core effect.
Forgive me for not being on the PTR.. does this mean that if you re-cast immolate, it lasts longer? Or it increases the time of a current immolate? Also, it only shows 3/6, 4/8... rather than 3/6/9%, 4/8/12%? Whats happened to this now?
On another note, would it be worth re-summoning to get an imp out when you start soulfire-executing at the end of a fight?
My belief is that the information you're quoting (I believe from MMO-Champion) is slightly misleading. I believe that the duration of immolate is still increased by 9 seconds at all times and the proc rate of MC remains 12% fully talented.
I haven't logged on during the new PTR build personally yet, so that might need verification, but I doubt such changes would have been made to the talent.
With regards to the Imp, the only gain you'd have over the Felguard by summoning him is 5% Fire crit. However you would only then have 5% increased Fire damage as opposed to all damage with the FG. This is even before accounting the use of time spent summoning the Imp in the first place, which would possibly be enough of a DPS loss in the first place.
So my guess would be a firm 'No'.
**EDIT** Changed the word 'incorrect' for 'misleading'
3.5 sec imp summon, and +5% crit to soulfires vs +5% damage to coa/corruption... then the damage loss of felg vs imp.
Meh probably not worth it, I guess. + can't rely on master demo, felguard might die at some point, right?
And.. ah. Thats a correction for the fact that previously all ranks did 12% chance + 9 sec to immos, then.
Though it is a boost to the DP uptime, with the crit.. however, I suppose thats not worth it compared to the personal dps gain on that haste.. meh :p
The uptime % doesn't really drop that much from taking a point out of Imp Demo Tactics, it's still very high assuming standard crit values. 10% of your crit added to your pet isn't a big deal, and the uptime is high enough that you don't gain much more uptime from it, maybe 1-2% more uptime at absolute most.
I imagine someone will post some actual numbers for this, but going from the FG to the imp is a significant dps loss from your pet, and without the deep fire talents incinerate just doesn't cut it. Also, you might need Mana Feed for the imp.
Hi, new poster here....... Apologies if this had been asked (i couldn't see it in the thread) or if it seems like a stupid question but the wording if the new Molten Core in 3.3 implies that it will only proc off Corruption, this would effectively force you to have corruption up at all times (assuming you were specced for MC). Would it be worth putting points into improved corruption as normally Corruption is a pretty rubbishy spell? I usually play destruction and so dont use Corruption unless i'm moving, but Demonology is looking interesting for the next patch.
Unless I'm reading your question wrong, I believe improved corruption only increases the damage dealt by corruption, and therefore doesn't actually affect MC's uptime. The majority of the damage contribution (i.e. the reason you'll use it) comes from the proc. Check out the simcraft thread - you'll notice the damage from corruption itself is only 5-6% of overall damage done. Therefore, 5 points in Imp Corruption would only increase your damage by .2*6% = 1.2%.
However, some have found that Glyph of Quick Decay is actually worth it on the simulator and provides around the same dps increase for corruption, but in such a way that does affect MC uptime.
10/26/09, 3:06 PM
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