Regarding CoD / CoA, is it worth it to do a rotation to maximize curse time benefiting from Meta?
As an example, Pop Meta, apply CoA, which gets the full 20% bonus. After that expires but before Meta drops, put up a CoD, which gets the bonus as long as it was cast during Meta. After the CoD hits, throw up a CoA, and then it's about time to Meta again, where you can start the rotation over.
This way, you get 1m24s of "meta'ed curse" time per meta; if CoD and CoA damage is roughly similar, would this rotation be superior to using CoD / CoA solely?
This makes little sense.
CoD and CoA damage is not similar. CoD does about the same damage that two and a half CoA (60 sec vs 24 sec duration). Meaning for each CoA cast, you're basically losing 2 gcd.
A gcd is 60% of a SB or Incinerate cast, 42% of a SF cast.
Only accounting for the gcd you'd lose during Meta and using DPE values from the sims thread this means you're trading 20% more CoA damage ((10618*1.2)-10618 = 2124 dmg) for 60% of a SB ((10278*1.2)*0.6 = 7400 dmg).
The dmg loss is even higher if you're considering 42% of a SF cast ((15746*1.2)*0.42 = 7936 dmg).
So, basically, just stick to CoD, only use CoA when CoD won't run its full duration.
Although I wasn't specifically looking for it, after reviewing my parses from yesterday, it definitely looks like my Felguard was wailing on her the whole time without trouble. 95% updtime on DP as well.
Although I wasn't specifically looking for it, after reviewing my parses from yesterday, it definitely looks like my Felguard was wailing on her the whole time without trouble. 95% updtime on DP as well.
I can confirm this. We kept me (Demo), a shadowpriest, and a rogue on her for dps on the shield and a good set of debuffs available for the short times between add phases. The felguard can most certainly attack her during p1.
Demo plays really nicely for Deathwhisper imo, after you are done with the first add in a wave, you have 10 seconds of decimation for the rest, or 10 seconds of decimation on her.
Also Seed of Corruption is so much better now for Demo builds, use it almost exclusively now and hanging around the top for AE dmg.
Demo plays really nicely for Deathwhisper imo, after you are done with the first add in a wave, you have 10 seconds of decimation for the rest, or 10 seconds of decimation on her.
The same will hold true for any fight with adds with low-to-moderate health. This mechanic was quite easy to use (exploit?) on Gunship Battle and Sauerfang as well.
The same will hold true for any fight with adds with low-to-moderate health. This mechanic was quite easy to use (exploit?) on Gunship Battle and Sauerfang as well.
I doubt it's something Blizz is unaware of. They might even encourage it, since on PTR, using a SF during decimation on a target above 35% would make the SF cost a shard and pretty much just exhaust all of em, and on live it no longer costs a shard.
I'm willing to think it's one of those side effects that Blizz didn't originally intend for it to happen, but don't really mind. It's mostly nice for doing quick add switches, something that Demo was particularly horrible at doing.
One thing I've noticed with the decimation effect -- starting a Soul Fire cast before the buff wears off results in you getting the haste, but if the cast ends after the buff has faded you still pay the soul shard. Ending Marrowgar with 5 shards because of quick spike switches is a huge pain.
One thing I've noticed with the decimation effect -- starting a Soul Fire cast before the buff wears off results in you getting the haste, but if the cast ends after the buff has faded you still pay the soul shard. Ending Marrowgar with 5 shards because of quick spike switches is a huge pain.
Definitely noticed that myself after going down to 6 (from 32) shards before I even got to Marrowgar from switching on trash and not noticing that exact effect.
I'm going to be adjusting my timers for Decimation to account for the cast time of Soul Fire (~1.8 seconds iirc) in my standard gear and under decimation. That way I know not to waste my shards on quick switches.
Would casting corruption on secondary targets boost your dps through molten core proccs on the primary target? I know it would increase your overall dps, but there is a reason the primary target is your primary target, right, so, there's the question. Is the loss of that gcd on primary target worth it for more molten core proccs?
Edit: Also..
Originally Posted by Ewinessa
Also Seed of Corruption is so much better now for Demo builds, use it almost exclusively now and hanging around the top for AE dmg.
Hm, how so? Shouldn't rain of fire benefit better now with ruin?
How much should the "damage done to 10" affect it?
I assume with this change that anything up to and including 10 mobs, rain of fire will be better, anything more, seed of corruption? Since SoC only hits caps at 11 mobs.
SoC damage: x * min(10,number of mobs-1)/(number of mobs-1)
RoF damage: y * min(10,number of mobs)/(number of mobs)
With x and y being the average aoe damage, averaged over crits etc. What would the figures for that be in ~245 gear?
I was thinking, since with MC we will be including inc into our rotation. Would it be better to drop ISB (assuming mage suppying crit debuff) for 6% immo damage and 10% mana reduction? Seeing that demo is a very mana inefficient spec.
im definitely in favour of this. since the re-introduction of affliction warlocks, i no longer need to keep imp sb up
im definitely in favour of this. since the re-introduction of affliction warlocks, i no longer need to keep imp sb up
6% additional immolate damage doesn't make up for the fact that incinerate's DPCT is terrible without emberstorm or a molten core proc. This is not a very good idea in my opinion.
The more effective alternative is to set up an addon like MSBT to warn you with a message and a sound that molten core has procced and then switch for three casts. Under 35% of course, straight soulfire spam is the way to go.
6% additional immolate damage doesn't make up for the fact that incinerate's DPCT is terrible without emberstorm or a molten core proc. This is not a very good idea in my opinion.
Not that i support the idea (already posted some math here : Demonology thread), but not taking ISB does not necessarily implies that you now use incinerate as your filler spell.
I still find it awkward that people want to lose 5% on their primary damage output for 3.8% increase on immolate coming from a talent which is directly aimed at buffing conflagration (increasing immolate's periodical damage and dazing conflagrated targets), for a mere mana reduction when mana may or may not be an issue on any fight where movement is involved and you have time to tap (which you'll do anyway to keep up the glyph bonus).
Not that i support the idea (already posted some math here : Demonology thread), but not taking ISB does not necessarily implies that you now use incinerate as your filler spell.
I still find it awkward that people want to lose 5% on their primary damage output for 3.8% increase on immolate coming from a talent which is directly aimed at buffing conflagration (increasing immolate's periodical damage and dazing conflagrated targets), for a mere mana reduction when mana may or may not be an issue on any fight where movement is involved and you have time to tap (which you'll do anyway to keep up the glyph bonus).
I have always tried to stack spirit where it was reasonably possible, I've even neglected getting the 4xT9 bonus to use the spirit robe+leggings that you get from NRB/Jaraxxus, and when I compare my gear to others I typically have more spirit than most Warlocks.
Despite this, I need to lifetap roughly every 15 seconds to keep my mana up, I go "OOM" in about ~70 seconds. Sure if a fight has absolute tons of movement then we could lifetap for 15k everytime there is (disregarding the fact that having to move often means something scary is about to happen to you), but overal mana conservation should quite directly result in a real DPS increase.
With that said, the DPS increase just doesn't hold up to the one gained from doing 5% more damage with shadowbolt. And losing important utility aswelll as a little bit of DPS just for the sake of a slightly less demanding 'rotation', simply is not at all worth it.
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.
If you just spam incinerate, you also loose out on the haste bonus of your first charge of molten core. This is because you are casting an incinerate when molten core procs, but you only get the benefit of haste if it is present at spellcast time.
- Demo DPS is no longer in “buff bot†category, maximise raid buff is not our SOLE PURPOSE anymore and there maybe ways we can play with decent DPS and maintain good buff.
- Boss with adds usually allow multiple cor running which increase molten core uptime which in turn increase inc and reduce SB total damage%, reducing the significant of the 5% from ISB.
- 10% mana reduction IS a big deal and IS an indirect DPS increase by itself
- Even without the imo 6% dot talent, 10% mana reduction maybe worth it against a 1.2% total damage drop from SB without 5% talent. (again assuming crit debuff is available).
To further elaborate, boss with adds (most boss falls in this category) will need you to tap cor (which u will do anyway because cor is of higher DPCT), the increase cor GCD means less SB being casted, also the increase molten core buff with multiple cor target means more inc and even less SB being cast. The total damage from SB will be in the region of 18-25% depending on the add phase. The ISB of 5% from 20% is only a total contribution of 1% overall damage.
Until this mana efficiency thing is bring up again in the future, lets just say 5% SB is the way to go, for now.
p.s. Can anyone tell me how to link a character profile from a taiwan server? I am working there for the moment. This is my character The World of Warcraft Armory
How are warlocks working around the bug where DP won't proc, which seems to be related to a refresh of Divine Spirit on the pet (from cursory googling and EJ searching)?
Has anyone narrowed down the behavior enough to predict when it will happen so they can actively prevent or deal with it, or are you just watching a DoTimer warning, Power Aura, TMW icon, or other indicator of DP being up (or not) and clicking off Divine Spirit if it isn't happening?
From running multiple heroics with priests, it seems the bug was not addressed in 3.3 (DP wasn't proc'ing at all in either heroic, but it does when I am solo questing), and I just now remembered there was a bug out there.
How are warlocks working around the bug where DP won't proc, which seems to be related to a refresh of Divine Spirit on the pet (from cursory googling and EJ searching)?
Has anyone narrowed down the behavior enough to predict when it will happen so they can actively prevent or deal with it, or are you just watching a DoTimer warning, Power Aura, TMW icon, or other indicator of DP being up (or not) and clicking off Divine Spirit if it isn't happening?
From running multiple heroics with priests, it seems the bug was not addressed in 3.3 (DP wasn't proc'ing at all in either heroic, but it does when I am solo questing), and I just now remembered there was a bug out there.
Click off group spirit buff, get single target one. Profit.
- Demo DPS is no longer in “buff bot†category, maximise raid buff is not our SOLE PURPOSE anymore and there maybe ways we can play with decent DPS and maintain good buff.
- Boss with adds usually allow multiple cor running which increase molten core uptime which in turn increase inc and reduce SB total damage%, reducing the significant of the 5% from ISB.
- 10% mana reduction IS a big deal and IS an indirect DPS increase by itself
- Even without the imo 6% dot talent, 10% mana reduction maybe worth it against a 1.2% total damage drop from SB without 5% talent. (again assuming crit debuff is available).
To further elaborate, boss with adds (most boss falls in this category) will need you to tap cor (which u will do anyway because cor is of higher DPCT), the increase cor GCD means less SB being casted, also the increase molten core buff with multiple cor target means more inc and even less SB being cast. The total damage from SB will be in the region of 18-25% depending on the add phase. The ISB of 5% from 20% is only a total contribution of 1% overall damage.
Until this mana efficiency thing is bring up again in the future, lets just say 5% SB is the way to go, for now.
I agree with you on most of this, but :
- Demonology dps is still lagging a few hundred dps behind Aff and Destro. Therefore, I believe we are more inclined to take the debuffer role.
- As it's been pointed out, I don't think the tradeoff is significant enough to warrant a personal and raid dps lost. But, if you really have someone else willing to provide the crit debuff (since scorch now provide the debuff in a single blow for instance), why not.
- My point wasn't to devaluate 10% mana conservation. I'm running with more than 700 spirit unbuffed and I am forced to tap often too, but to say that it is possible to find opportunity windows in which you'll tap without losing dps (I've been doing a lot of Algalon and Yogg+1 lately, kinda forgot there are fights where you don't spend half your time running )
I would like to ask some questions about aoe on demo pls.
On anub 25 hc till 3.3 released i was spamming shadowflame-demonic empower on cd and hellfire for max aoe (for anub and the adds). And ofc meta-immolation aura every first pack of adds when anub was up. On p3 i was switching to rain of fire and i could use meta a 2nd time at the end of the phase. (i was 5th-6th on damage done, after our 2 dks-2 rogues)
a) Is there anything more that i could try in order to go even higher?
b) Does shadow cleave worths using it?
Originally Posted by Ewinessa
Also Seed of Corruption is so much better now for Demo builds, use it almost exclusively now and hanging around the top for AE dmg.
c) Is this true? Sorry but could you explain us why?
I would like to ask some questions about aoe on demo pls.
On anub 25 hc till 3.3 released i was spamming shadowflame-demonic empower on cd and hellfire for max aoe (for anub and the adds). And ofc meta-immolation aura every first pack of adds when anub was up. On p3 i was switching to rain of fire and i could use meta a 2nd time at the end of the phase. (i was 5th-6th on damage done, after our 2 dks-2 rogues)
a) Is there anything more that i could try in order to go even higher?
b) Does shadow cleave worths using it?
c) Is this true? Sorry but could you explain us why?
a) hellfire is only useful if you try to commit suicide in order to avoid repair bills. If you want to do any decent AoE damage, use rain of fire or seed of corruption
b) Shadow cleave is not worth it, its damage is too low
c) Rain of fire is no longer affected by Molten Core, and SoC now hits its primary target too, making it a superior AoE as far as I know (though I'm not perfectly sure)
a) hellfire is only useful if you try to commit suicide in order to avoid repair bills. If you want to do any decent AoE damage, use rain of fire or seed of corruption
b) Shadow cleave is not worth it, its damage is too low
c) Rain of fire is no longer affected by Molten Core, and SoC now hits its primary target too, making it a superior AoE as far as I know (though I'm not perfectly sure)
Thank you very much. I was under the impression that hellfire does more damage than rain of fire (anyway it seems i was wrong). Is anybody sure about the soc change that you mentioned? Because i personally didn't find anything about it in latest change logs at least.
12/09/09, 4:17 AM
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