2 quick questions regarding 0/41/30 that I've seen people allude to but have had a hard time finding answers to:
1. Assuming I don't need to put up CoE, what is the preferred curse? I see most people assume CoA but I've also seen some suggest CoD. If CoD is more base dmg than CoA, is corr enough to keep up MC or should CoA (and glyph of CoA) be used for the uptime?
2. At higher crit rates, is there a point where Glyph of Immolate is actually a DPS loss due to less front load crit dmg?
2 quick questions regarding 0/41/30 that I've seen people allude to but have had a hard time finding answers to:
1. Assuming I don't need to put up CoE, what is the preferred curse? I see most people assume CoA but I've also seen some suggest CoD. If CoD is more base dmg than CoA, is corr enough to keep up MC or should CoA (and glyph of CoA) be used for the uptime?
2. At higher crit rates, is there a point where Glyph of Immolate is actually a DPS loss due to less front load crit dmg?
Thanks in advance
1: CoA is the preferred curse, for Molten Core uptime. CoD does do more damage, but Corruption only ticks every 3 seconds and isn't enough to keep MC up decently by itself. It does turn out to be a pretty minor difference, though - simcraft shows CoD instead of CoA is a meager 17 DPS loss for me at the moment.
2. No. I don't have the hard math on the scaling here, but I did the math for a particular WWS run where my immolate crit 57% of the time. The Glyph was still a pretty big DPS increase, so I doubt there's an inflection point where it turns into a DPS loss. A better question might be whether there's a point where Glyph of Corruption is better.
Has anyone attempted a 0/40/31 build?
I have to admit I stole it from buzzkill's armory. it's nice to get those demo buffs without having to use failguard.
Should corruption be used if not on CoE duty?
Also wondering if conflag would be bad for this build?
Ive been running around with 0/41/30 and 0/30/4+1 for awhile, and its all good. Im top or near the top always, but dps vary from bossfights ofcourse. I tried affliction on patchwerk once too, but only managed 4.5k dps, but it was extremely spiky and i lost my haunt uptime alot. It was also my first bossfight as affliction.
Anyway, im trying meta/ruin now, for the fun of it. Might have good burst potential for shorter fights. I figured, while sitting at work ill try out to check if the Imp. Demonic Tactics worked or not, and my testings concludes that it does not. This might be old news though. I didnt do the best testing, only around 600 hits and 800 hits, but it still seem to point out that the talent is not working properly. I should have tested with speccing away from it too, but couldnt be arsed.
Dont flame the UI! Its barely playable on the laptop and i just have it on work to do something in the spare time .
What do you guys think? Maybe someone else could do a more proper test, if not done already. If it is so that the talent is broken, it is atleast no use of speccing it while having this spec
Also, long time reader and raider for that matter, first time poster.
First of all, my compliments to all who've put so much effort in calculations and theory crafting. You're very helpful to the community.
My experiences so far have shown me that that Haunt/Ruin is awesome. On a fight like Patchwerk sustaining 4k-4.5k dps is very doable.
Tonight I'll try the 0/40/31 spec. Pet of choice would be the Imp, but I guess thats pretty obvious.
I've seen quite some Warlocks in high end guilds using this spec and like Talimar, I'd like to know if any of you guys has tried it. If so,
What are your experiences with it?
Have you got any WWS parses of this build?
What's your Imp's dps?
Which buffs do you prefer for your imp?
Are you using any specifid 'pet' food, caster equivalents of Kibler's bits?
I really enjoyed the spec. did same dps on patchwerk as I did with affliction, and it does well on fights where you need to nuke fast(where affliction fails badly). I'm gonna keep it for now.
only point I would change is the last filler point which I would put in fel synergy instead, since you are so dependent on imp staying alive for the buffs. it might not be enough for fights like Grobbulus, but it doesn't hurt.
having 1 in sacrifice may or may not be useful. if your imp keeps dying in a fight and you've blown fel dom already then you may as well sac him
I may very well keep this spec until I get better gear and/or blizzard decides to improve the bottom destruction talents. the buffs are delicious
edit:
imp dps was usually 15% or more. and I don't know of any casterlike pet food I'm afraid. I also raid strictly 10man so not many raid buffs available
Some napkin maths on Demonic Pact. I haven't found the post that calculated the average attack time of a Felguard, but for some reason 1.6 seconds is sticking in my head. It sounds reasonable given the 2 second swing time of Felguard with raid buffs.
Length of DP: 12 seconds
Attempts to refresh: 12/1.6 = 7.5
Crit to maintain = 100%/7 swings = 14.5% crit
I've rounded in several places, but it would appear that as long as your Felguard has 14.5% crit rating DP will be maintained. DP procs off of white and cleave crit damage. There appears to be no internal cooldown from the posts so far.
Some napkin maths on Demonic Pact. I haven't found the post that calculated the average attack time of a Felguard, but for some reason 1.6 seconds is sticking in my head. It sounds reasonable given the 2 second swing time of Felguard with raid buffs.
Length of DP: 12 seconds
Attempts to refresh: 12/1.6 = 7.5
Crit to maintain = 100%/7 swings = 14.5% crit
I've rounded in several places, but it would appear that as long as your Felguard has 14.5% crit rating DP will be maintained. DP procs off of white and cleave crit damage. There appears to be no internal cooldown from the posts so far.
The 1.6 will be with Windfury totem, in a 25 man raid this is a virtual no brainer if you've got more than 1 shaman (lets be honest about it), or even a frost DK with Imp Icy Talons. Due to the whimsical nature of crit though even with the increased speed you will find that you're more likely to get around an 80-90% uptime on DP at best should it not be overwritten by ToW.
At my gear level[1], SimCraft gives the following:
The Affliction builds are leaving a lot of DPS on the table that I don't take advantage of, and the benefit of 0/40/31 is that it is simple to play, a lot of fun, and has some room for tailoring the build a bit to my deficiencies.
I'm really liking this build, and I'm surprised I had to spy on Buzzkill's armory to learn of it.
[1] pre-raid heroics and craftables (non-epic robe, non-epic gloves) armory is current and correct for me if you want/need more details.
Originally Posted by Zeln
I'm pretty sure the only reason you're on this planet is the phone rang and startled your dad.
Long time reader, recent poster.
Idk if you guys noticed, but it seems blizz hotfixed Corruption spell coefficient recently.
"Quote from: Ghostcrawler (Source)The coefficients of these spells were hotfixed last Thursday I believe.
Corruption's coefficient went from 0.156 to 0.20.
Immolate's coefficient went from 0.13 to 0.20.
This ends up being a reasonably significant dps buff to all 3 specs. In our preliminary testing, Demonology may have benefited the most.
Please recognize the changes these numbers will have on your class when making subsequent posts. "
This quote is about a month old now. I think it did not go live then.
I play with 0/41/30, and I started my own dps spreadsheet to have a better understanding of the new mechanics, but Corruption results wouldn't agree: with my gear and a 1,2 spell coefficient, it should be ticking ~600 without raid buffs, but on live it was ticking for ~420. That was Friday.
Yesterday, my server (Smolderthorn) had a lot of resets and today my Corruption was ticking 600 sharp.
I talked to a guildie that plays with an Elemental Shaman and he noticed spell changes too.
With the new spell coefficients, my gear and my spec, corruption has a higher DPC than Incinerate and it is now worth to put in my spell priority list.
Some napkin maths on Demonic Pact. I haven't found the post that calculated the average attack time of a Felguard, but for some reason 1.6 seconds is sticking in my head. It sounds reasonable given the 2 second swing time of Felguard with raid buffs.
Length of DP: 12 seconds
Attempts to refresh: 12/1.6 = 7.5
Crit to maintain = 100%/7 swings = 14.5% crit
I've rounded in several places, but it would appear that as long as your Felguard has 14.5% crit rating DP will be maintained. DP procs off of white and cleave crit damage. There appears to be no internal cooldown from the posts so far.
Doesn't quite work like that. Uptime = 1-(1-crit_chance)^(12/hit_frequency). With cleave and haste, frequency is in the 1.2-1.5 seconds per hit range. Unless crit chance is 100%, it's not going to have 100% uptime. With the above 14.5% crit and 1.5 second intervals the uptime is 1-(.855)^(12/1.5)=71%.
The Affliction builds are leaving a lot of DPS on the table that I don't take advantage of, and the benefit of 0/40/31 is that it is simple to play, a lot of fun, and has some room for tailoring the build a bit to my deficiencies.
I'm really liking this build, and I'm surprised I had to spy on Buzzkill's armory to learn of it.
You actually didn't. That build was discussed by many on these boards, along with 0/41/30 from the day the buffs to SM, DP, and emberstorm were announced, which was before the WotlK launch.
Don't confuse good players with good theorycrafters. Buzzkill is the former, but demonstrably not the latter. His "test" of a felguard build in TBC to "prove" that destro was better in T5 content was laughably ridiculous (his test involved running T5 content in full black temple gear when no one was arguing with the fact that destro was better in T6).
I can't recall a single post giving any reasonable explanation as to why 0/40/31 is actually better than 0/41/30 (assuming the felguard can live and dps, which he can in most fights).
Don't rely completely on people who are unabashedly biased against a particular spec or playstyle. Their bias often keeps them from performing at their max, even when they are in "top guilds".
I can't recall a single post giving any reasonable explanation as to why 0/40/31 is actually better than 0/41/30 (assuming the felguard can live and dps, which he can in most fights).
Unless the +1 in destro is in backlash (and the links I've been seeing lately have +1 destro reach), it's only losing the ability to use FG in fights where that's superior. If you're already dropping FG, losing 7% crit in exchange for +20% spell power coefficient seems like a good move.
Unless the +1 in destro is in backlash (and the links I've been seeing lately have +1 destro reach), it's only losing the ability to use FG in fights where that's superior. If you're already dropping FG, losing 7% crit in exchange for +20% spell power coefficient seems like a good move.
That's comparing 0/41/30 to 0/31/40. While I agree with you (or at least I agree at a certain level of spellpower this will be true), its a different discussion than 0/41/30 vs 0/40/31.
2 quick questions regarding 0/41/30 that I've seen people allude to but have had a hard time finding answers to:
1. Assuming I don't need to put up CoE, what is the preferred curse? I see most people assume CoA but I've also seen some suggest CoD. If CoD is more base dmg than CoA, is corr enough to keep up MC or should CoA (and glyph of CoA) be used for the uptime?
2. At higher crit rates, is there a point where Glyph of Immolate is actually a DPS loss due to less front load crit dmg?
Thanks in advance
to #1: I think it depends on your specc, as Shadow-Demo CoD would be preferable but as fire it would be CoA, because of the higher MC uptime.
I aim actually towards a 2 52 17 specc, because i think th 2% hit increase you don't need on your gear and so can invest in dmg increase beats a every now and then 3% dmg increase on your and your pets styles, any comments?
That's comparing 0/41/30 to 0/31/40. While I agree with you (or at least I agree at a certain level of spellpower this will be true), its a different discussion than 0/41/30 vs 0/40/31.
My second point was comparing 41/30 to 31/40. My first point was saying that the only real difference between 0/41/30 and 0/40/31 that I've seen on talent-calc links lately moved the FG point to destructive reach. Since that talent is pretty lackluster, the only difference is that you lose the ability to use a FG on fights where he's fine staying alive.
The difference will come down to 3 factors:
1 - Spec'd Felguard vs. Spec'd Imp DPS
2 - Crit; putting the +1 into backlash and running with an IMP is +1% and +6% for fire spells
3 - Dmg; +1 in FG is good for 5% of all dmg versus 5% fire with IMP. FG(I think) also has more Stam and Int for Demonic Knowledge.
Does someone have numbers for these 3? The original plan was to calculate it before I left work but I'm off early so going home to log in instead. If it isn't up tomorrow when I come in I'll take a look at it.
Can anyone link a wws stat of a 0/41/30 in a 25 man raid. I was able to do 4200 in a heroic boss as 0/41/30 with heroism, but its an heroic boss. I just want to see how this spec stacks up to the afflic. So far no matter what spec I try in demo or destruction i cant break 4500?. So I read and go respec and try all differnt types, and wonder why most top ranks guilds are using destruction types/demo types. I for one hate watching the 6-8 dot timers, gcd timers instead of actually enjoying the boss, which why I stay away from afflic. So anyone?
Tonight was my first night testing an experimental Demonology build I made, 7/49/15. I decided to go with Demonic Empathy over Demonic Pact because we always have Totem of Wrath in the raid. Taking Demonic Pact right now is a very minimal increase (6.4 spell power if my math is correct?).
I tried it out in Naxx tonight and from what I can see, it's pretty solid. WWS from Patchwerk: Wow Web Stats
My stats raid buffed: 2864 spell power, 434 hit, 30.56% crit, 393 haste. I currently do not have the Glyph of Felguard so my DPS could be a bit better than what is shown.
First point would be you can drop alot of hit, i see you dont have the +3% talent, no problem, but even so, with a Draenei, Shammy and a S.Priest in raid, you only need 13% so you can drop 2.5% for more spell dmg/crit and just keep some seperate gear for the hit your missing when you run heroics/10 mans.
I've been targeting a meta/ruin build, and am currently specc'd pretty close to the build you've got linked in the first point. However, one question that's still nagging me that I haven't seen a whole lot of discussion about is the three points you have in demonic empathy. As far as I can tell, this build has six options (including DE) to put those three points in that will affect your dps. Namely improved curse of agony, suppression, improved corruption, DE, molten core, and cataclysm. Has anyone looked at the math of each of these talents and come up with a ballpark value for them? It seems like a lot of meta locks choose cataclysm or molten core, but I've yet to see anyone really provide a basis for choosing as they did.
I've been targeting a meta/ruin build, and am currently specc'd pretty close to the build you've got linked in the first point. However, one question that's still nagging me that I haven't seen a whole lot of discussion about is the three points you have in demonic empathy. As far as I can tell, this build has six options (including DE) to put those three points in that will affect your dps. Namely improved curse of agony, suppression, improved corruption, DE, molten core, and cataclysm. Has anyone looked at the math of each of these talents and come up with a ballpark value for them? It seems like a lot of meta locks choose cataclysm or molten core, but I've yet to see anyone really provide a basis for choosing as they did.
Molten core really makes no sense for a meta build. Incinerate as a nuke really requires emberstorm to be worth it over shadowbolt.
12/05/08, 10:34 PM
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