At pull, I usually start with meta+corruption+Doom to ge closer to the cac. However, I don't use directly my immolate aura cause I wait demonic pact to be up. Indded immolate aura take 200% sp so I think it's worth to wait the proc. You could delay your immolate till 15 sec meta remaining to wait a trinket proc like DFO.

With the changes to demonic pact coming up in 3.3.3, my first assumption is that uptime will be extremely high regardless of how demo gears/spec.

I was curious if anyone had done the math in regards to where a point or two in improved demonic tactics would be best re-delegated to other, more relevant talents.

There are various places where the talents could be situationally allocated, but I was curious if there was a solid, new place where the talent points would shine.

There's not that many choises available, the ones I see are Destructive reach, Cataclysm and improved corruption.
Destructive reach I'd only choose if you were having threat issues, cataclysm doesn't really have a direct damage increase, but helps with preserving mana, so could help a bit indirectly. Improved corruption however will give you 2%/4% more dmg (on corruption ofc).
Another option could be aftermath to increase peroidic damage on immolate by 3%/6%, but I'm not sure if this will turn out to be a higher overall increase over imp. corr.
I'd run a simcraft with both options, but I'm at work atm, so it will have to wait.

I'm wondering however if dropping both points in idt can be done without problems (I guess it also depends on your own crit chance).

I ran simulations about talent options in 3.3.3 a few pages ago.

Check the post here: Demonology Thread

So far IDT seems to be the winner of all the possible talent allocations, even suppression or aftermath.

Usually I pop Meta and Immolation Aura as I am running into melee range. I was always under the impression it was better to apply dots once in meta, so they gain from the damage bonus from meta. If this is indeed incorrect, let me know.

try to pop your immolation aura as soon as your 4pc t10 procs or when you just have 16seconds of meta remaining

even try to time it, that you have as often meta as possible AND in heroism / 35% phase

I see that suppression was useful at lower gearing levels, does putting the two points there alter the BiS list, or has anyone created a BiS set with 2 extra hit not needed, allocatable to others and what effect that might have on pDPS/rDPS?

Lets assume the pet does 20% of your damage, and at BiS gearing level, you have 50% crit, so that translates to 5% crit on 20% of your total damage. That seems to be roughly 1% DPS increase.

A flat 1% hit is also a 1% DPS increase, plus the marginal mana saving, so my curiousity dictates that maybe I should craft a different set with the new, alleged hit cap to see if that could squeeze out different results...

Suppression is the only talent i could see being worth it. As 2% hit would allow you to swap out a hit piece for something with a higher SP gain. Therefore increasing the amount of your DP.

Most of the other changes would simply be moving your damage from the pet over to a different spell, causing no noticible change.

I think Intensity would make a good filler.
This is of course a very situational talent, but 70% pushback reduction can be very useful in some fights through ICC.

According to my lastsimcraft on 3.3.3, DT brings 200dps. So you have to find talent that at least bring 100dps per point.
If you choose suppression, this means that you should be able trade your 52 hit on your gear and gain 200dps. With the 3.3.3 scale factors, 200dps is approximately 125 haste or 131 crit, ...
I highly doubt that anybody could replace 52 hit by 125 haste or 131 crit.

Does the damage buff from DP proc scale with when your trinkets proc and you gain extra SP or is it off your base SP?

Except that you aren't accounting for DP, i would agree trading haste/crit for supp would more than likely end up with a dps loss. However, spirit (and therefore SP) might be worth it depending on the raid setup.

Yes, I can confirm that. I do not know if it is working as intended, because in this case, the optimal way to "use" DP is stoping your pet dmg during the last 25 secs of the buff when you are using SP strengtheners (trinket, blood fury, potion of wild magic...).

This is kind of weird, mainly if the intention was to keep the buff up all the time. It is obvious that it is better to let it expire in this case, with the subsequent warlock personal dps loss. I personally think this is a bug, and if not, they should seriously consider changing it.

Not worth it. If you do that, you'll lose uptime while trying to re-apply the buff after it drops. Gaining ~100 SP for the last 25 seconds isn't going to be worth losing the entire DP buff while your pet re-applies it, unless your crit rate is very high, relative to your SP. You're much better off refreshing it a bit early, rather than later.

But if you pull him out for say, 10 seconds right at 26s remaining, you can almost certainly keep the buff up and gain an extra 10 seconds of bonus spellpower. As long as the raid benefits more from 10s of that spellpower than 10s of your FG dps.

Reading through this, it looks like IDT wins out with BiS, but Suppression wins out with 264s. This the right read?

Long time reader, first timer poster. I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread for all of the excellent information I have gleaned from it.

In reviewing this thread, I have found inconclusive evidence (as of patch 3.3.3) on what spell (Shadow Bolt or Incinerate) to use as filler. I decided to collect my own in-game test samples, and this is what I found. If anyone can find flaw in my test design or statistical calculations, I would appreciate it (as I'm sure anyone else who reviews this thread would, as well) and correct it, in order to gain accurate data. The aim of this test was to decide what filler spell to use. Though not the direct aim of this test, the greater question is whether the points invested in Molten Core could be better allocated.

Test Design:

No PetAttack (no Demonic Pact, b/c of proc variable). Cloak un-epuipped (no Lightweave, b/c of proc variable). Grand Firestone (Master Conjuror 2/2, constant). Fel Armor (Demonic Aegis 3/3, constant). Master Demonoligist 5/5 (constant). Demonic Knowledge 3/3 (constant). Felguard (not used; no PetAttack), Metamorphosis (not used) and Lifetap (not used) Glyphs. Crit Chance: 33.8% (variable; constant through use of Confidence Interval calculations).

Cast Rotation:

Shadow Bolt: Cast Shadow Bolt. Reset Recount data. 10x cast Shadow Bolt (within 24 seconds) under effect of Improved Shadow Bolt. Input Total Damage Number.

Incinerate: Cast Shadow Bolt (to maintain Improved Shadow Bolt buff as constant). Cast Corruption (attempt to trigger Molten Core proc). Cast Immolate (in order to gain damage bonus for Incinerate). Cast 10x Incinerate (within 24 seconds) under effect of Improved Shadow Bolt, Immolate/Incinerate Bonus, and if Proc'd Molten Core Bonus. Input Total Damage Number from Incinerate.

Sample set:

Sample Size (n) = 50

Total Damage done over 24 seconds (the duration of Immolate with 3/3 Molten Core) against Heroic Training Dummy.

All Shadow Bolt and Incinerate casts were on 10 count (2.2 seconds per cast) except for Molten Core Proc's (3x Incinerate @ 1.6 seconds). (3x w/ Molten Core) 4.8 - 4.4 (2x regular Shadow Bolt or Incinerate) = 0.4 = effectual cast time for 3rd Incinerate, which allowed for an 11th cast in 24 seconds. Distances were calibrated at melee or near-melee range in order to reduce missile time. Casting latency was not used.

Test Statistics:

Validity - Random Sample, Sample Population > 29, Standard Deviation of Population is unknown.

df = 49
t-value @ 90% Confidence = 1.677
z-value @ 90% Confidence = 1.645

Shadow Bolt:
Sample Mean = 53610.3
Sample Standard Deviation = 7888.3
Confidence Interval @ 90% = 51739.5 to 55481.1

Incinerate:
Sample Mean = 45842.3
Sample Standard Deviation = 7285.0
Confidence Interval @ 90% = 44114.6 to 47570.0

Proportion of Molten Core proc:
Sample Proportion = 18/50 = 0.36
Sampling Error = 0.112
Confidence Interval @ 90% = 0.248 to 0.472

Notes on sampling:

At n = 30, the Proportion of Molten Core proc = 43.3%
At n = 40, the Proportion of Molten Core proc = 40% (concurrent with previously calculated/simulated Molten Core proc rates)

Conclusion:

Statistically, under a 3/3 Molten Core, 5/5 Improved Shadow Bolt, 5/5 Bane and 5/5 Ruin build, Shadow Bolt is the better filler spell. Though a greater sample size could better define the difference between the two spells, the Confidence Intervals (@ 90%) indicate that the True Population Means of the two spells are at a minimum 4169.5 damage difference for a 24 second test. As for the decision to re-allocate talent points from Molten Core 3/3: further in-game testing will be necessary, but the greatest factor I could conceive is the cast time and duration (1.34 & 24 seconds on this build, respectively) to re-up Immolate, and the frequency Immolate re-up will need to be done at.

Again, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread and kept it the leading edge on all things related to Demonology Warlocks.

I would like to know how demo warlocks are utilising their Devious Minds procs with their cooldowns. I'm currently working out an optimal initial 'rotation' to maximise DPS. Currently my initial cast sequence is as follows, if I have nothing to save my meta for (adds or such):

LT (R1)
Shadow Bolt for the ISB debuff
Immolate
CoD and Corruption as I run into melee range
Meta, Immolation Aura
Shadow Bolt as normal.

I notice my shadow bolts don't reach the target before immolate hits, thus my first question is, is it worth casting two shadow bolts for this bonus? Or does delaying immolate for another shadow bolt reduce DPS due to the delaying of the Devious Minds proc?

Secondly, I recently set up a Power Aura to show Devious Minds, so I can time Immolation Aura with it, but often I find I pop meta at the start along with my 20 second hit trinket (Maghia's Misguided Quill), and Devious Minds hasn't procced even by the time my Meta reaches 15 seconds left so I have to pop Immolation Aura regardless. I did some testing and even if I use Immolate first, it still takes around 20-30 seconds for it to proc on average. I also read I should save meta itself for the proc. This would make more sense to me as it allows tanks to gain threat in the beginning, allows more time for molten core to proc, and as the tanks gain more threat I can perhaps get away with staying in melee range for the entire meta so I don't waste its precious duration running out. However, I would be wasting 3 seconds out of the 10 seconds it offers running into melee range in the first place as it procs.

So i'm a little unsure how I should handle this. On alot of fights I do save my meta for adds that spawn shortly in anyway, for example on Marrowgar for bone spikes, Saurfang, Putricide etc. Thus I have more chance that Devious Minds would be up at this point, if the extra damage is required.

Has anyone tested this? Or have any thoughts?

@Mousekewitz

Unless I'm missing something, you've accurately shown that a straight-up incinerate filler is inferior to a straight-up shadow bolt filler. A demo lock who chose to, essentially, ignore MC procs would do better by using only a SB filler.

However, I think that this might be misleading.

I've been operating under the assumption that I should be using SB UNLESS a MC proc occurs, in that case I switch to incinerate x3 and go back to SB. The real question that I think is important to answer is not whether the straight-up SB filler is better than the straight-up incin filler, but rather does incin x3 (under the effect of MC) do more damage during that (approx) 3.9ish second (at my level of haste) window than would a SB spam.

I've been under the impression that it was worth casting incin x3 when molten core procs and then switching back to shadow bolts. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.

From what I have seen incinerate does usually hit 10%-20% weaker then SB. However under MC it does 18% more damage which makes it even with SB and it casts 30% faster. These 2 effects makes incinerate better to cast then SB only when MC procs of course. You are also have to remember it also increases the damage and crit chance of SF. In addition to those 2 effects it makes Immo last 9 seconds longer so you have to cast it a lot less. All these effects make it a great talent and there is no reason to drop it.

Lately I have been wondering how to make best use of decimation on add fights. The exact szenario I am interested in is the following: Add dies with X seconds left on decimation. When now switchng back to boss I am wondering which priority list to use for spells: Is it preferable to cast as many soul fires as possible, i.e. only put up corruption and immolate once the decimation buff runs out, or put up corruption and immolate first even though that means less soul fires? Observe that this has nothing to do with corruption and Immolate having higher DPCT than Soul fire since with X seconds left on decimation one only looses X seconds of uptime on both corruption and immolate. Nevertheless it still seems preferable to me to put up corruption and immolate first for the following reason: the cast sequence for the first option is - X seconds casting soul fire , Y seconds casting corr , Z seconds casting Immolate.
With the the second option - Y seconds casting corr , Z seconds casting Immolate, (X-Y-Z) seconds casting soul fire , (Y+Z) seconds casting shadow bolt, to end up at X+Y+Z seconds for both sequences. Thus the difference between the two is Y+Z seconds of soul fire - (Y+Z) seconds of shadow bolt - X seconds of corruption and Immolate. Without putting in exact numbers this difference seems to be negative even for small values of X, which means that putting up corruption and Immolate first is preferable. Please correct me if I am making a mistake somewhere.

I view it this way: a decimated soulfire has a DPCT almost as good as immolate. If the spells had equivalent mechanics, immolate would always be your priority (e.g. if both were spammable instant casts, you would always choose immolate). However, they are not equivalent in this situation. Immolate has an effective 24 second cooldown, while a decimation proc allows soulfire to be spammable within a set time period. As this time period is finite when procced from an add death, there is a significant opportunity cost to not casting soulfire while its active.

Lets assume your immolate ran out and needed refresh right as decimation procced. If you decided to refresh immolate, over the course of that decimation proc you will gain 1 immolate initial hit + 3 ticks. You lose the opportunity to cast 1 soulfire (at most haste levels). Since total immolate is only slightly better than 1 soulfire, we can safely assume 1 soulfire >> 3 ticks+ initial immolate dmg.

I go with only soulfires for add-based decimation procs. When decimation range hits the boss (and the uptime for decimation becomes 100% at that point) it again becomes worth it to prioritize immolate and corruption.

Dont't forget that Its 1 soulfire vs 3 ticks + initial immolate dmg + 1 shadow bolt. Immolate procs 4pc t10 also, so I usually cast immolate first even at non-execute decimation.