1. Demo/destro hybrids only take the Imp as a pet if two conditions are met: A) they are fire-based - that is, Incinerate is their main nuke, and B) they don't have 41 points in demo for the Felguard
2. The choice of fire vs shadow relies entirely on whether you have 30 points in destro for Emberstorm. If you have that talent, fire is better than shadow. If you don't, shadow is better than fire.
3. Because most of the higher-tier talents in demo are lackluster, your spec essentially wastes 9 points in demonology in order to get Demonic Pact, whereas pretty much all the points in destro beyond 21 are very valuable.
Essentially, you're sacrificing personal DPS to give the whole raid a spell power buff. It's a great buff, but it's currently outdone by Totem of Wrath, and they don't stack. So if you don't have an elemental shaman or another deep demo lock in your raid, your spec is great. If you do, it kinda sucks.
That said, 0/41/30 with the Felguard is better DPS than 0/30/40+1. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know how to keep the Felguard alive or hasn't tested it in a raid environment with full melee buffs on the Felguard.
That said, 0/41/30 with the Felguard is better DPS than 0/30/40+1. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know how to keep the Felguard alive or hasn't tested it in a raid environment with full melee buffs on the Felguard.
Are we just supposed to take your word for it then?
Are we just supposed to take your word for it then?
Not if you don't want to - you're free to respec and try both on a simple fight like Patchwerk where any skill factor is pretty much eliminated. Or you can download Simulationcraft and take its word for it.
Not if you don't want to - you're free to respec and try both on a simple fight like Patchwerk where any skill factor is pretty much eliminated. Or you can download Simulationcraft and take its word for it.
I have tried both specs, anf found similar dps, on both specs. Since getting the sword of Kt, the turning tide, I have found 0/31/40 to be scaleing better and more dps. I also consintanly am checking the top us guilds and warlocks specs and most are running the 0/31/40, cant be bad. That being said, I like 0/41/30 better just doesn't scale as well imo. Ill post wws stats this week on patch.
With the new buffs to Cb, ill be interested to see if deep destro scales higher.
I have tried both specs, anf found similar dps, on both specs. Since getting the sword of Kt, the turning tide, I have found 0/31/40 to be scaleing better and more dps. I also consintanly am checking the top us guilds and warlocks specs and most are running the 0/31/40, cant be bad. That being said, I like 0/41/30 better just doesn't scale as well imo. Ill post wws stats this week on patch.
With the new buffs to Cb, ill be interested to see if deep destro scales higher.
"Your" stats or relative dps as one spec or the other are not all that relevant. Your sword off KT is also not relevant.
What's relevant is the spellpower/crit combinations at which (20% more scaling on incinerate + [imp dps]) > (7% crit + [FG dps]). Tell us how this relationship changed for you from getting the sword, and show us how the math works out to prove that this made 0/30/40 + 1 a better choice.
I've pointed out earlier in this thread why "checking specs of top guild warlocks," in isolation, is a pretty bad way to derive why one spec may be better than another: because players from "top guilds" are often proven wrong. Best player =\= best theorycrafter or always right.
I'm trying to figure out the simplest spec i can give my dad, as he's not really good enough to be able to maintain a rotation using 5-6 spells etc. I'm wondering if he's gonna be able to output a decent ammount of DPS with a 0/31/40 spec, using CoA, Immo, and Incin. Could this provide acceptable DPS? His gear level has still yet to see some improvements, having about 5 naxx items, rest being Blues.
I read EJ on a daily basis and from day to day I get more and more confused.
I want to play the best specc for me and I have decided that affliction, even if it may be the most efficient spec, is not for me simply because of the "tunnel vision phenomenum"
A few days ago it was the general concensus that 0/30/41 +1 outperform 0/41/30 FG. But now there are arguements in favour of the FG spec. Unfortunately I have been able to see a demo spec in a Patchwork scenario, only affliction (since I suck so much it put me around 4K DPS).
Now my next question: Before the expansion came out many people here on Ej speculated that 0/28/43 empowered imp would be the way to go, but nobody is talking about that spec anymore. How would it compare to MD/S&F?
I know there are no definite answers, but maybe someone could enlighten me?
I'm trying to figure out the simplest spec i can give my dad, as he's not really good enough to be able to maintain a rotation using 5-6 spells etc. I'm wondering if he's gonna be able to output a decent ammount of DPS with a 0/31/40 spec, using CoA, Immo, and Incin. Could this provide acceptable DPS? His gear level has still yet to see some improvements, having about 5 naxx items, rest being Blues.
I'll admit, I haven't tried the 0/31/40 spec quite yet, but I have done the 0/56/15 spec that you see in the OP. If you're wanting something that your dad can use (who doesn't enjoy juggling a bunch of spells), this is an awesome way to go. Your dad sounds better equipped than I (I haven't gone to Naxx yet), so it shouldn't be an issue. On boss fights, I can usually end up at the top of the DPS list. I'm not one of those people that can hit 4k dps on a boss, but I do well enough.
All I really worry about are my trinkets, shadowbolt, corruption, CoA (or whatever other curse, depending on the situation), immolate, and throwing the Demonic Empowerment buff on my pet every time it comes up. With just those alone, I can hit 2000 dps on trash mobs. On bosses, I'll pop meta, charge in, and use the immolation aura. With that and the damage buff you receive from Meta, I can hit about 3500 dps on bosses with minimal effort on my part. I respect all of these affliction warlocks that can output more DPS than I, but I guess I'm not just a skilled enough player to juggle all of those dots. One last note, my dps numbers above are factoring in pet damage, not just spell damage. My Felguard will normally do 300dps, but it's gone as high as 500. It's a fun spec with a minimal amount of effort required. I like that.
All I really worry about are my trinkets, shadowbolt, corruption, CoA
Every simcraft sim I've run for meta specs has shown doom as (slightly) better DPS than CoA, presumably due to the GCDs saved. I recommend sticking to Doom, and only switching to Agony if you get a Doom miss / the fight won't last 1 minute more.
A few days ago it was the general concensus that 0/30/41 +1 outperform 0/41/30 FG. But now there are arguements in favour of the FG spec. Unfortunately I have been able to see a demo spec in a Patchwork scenario, only affliction (since I suck so much it put me around 4K DPS).
I know there are no definite answers, but maybe someone could enlighten me?
Greetings,
Alithia
I think i can adress this part. I think the general consensus has been consistent and is:
At T7 gear levels 0/41/30 is expected to outperform 0/30/40 +1. At some later* gear level, the reverse will be true as the benefits of Shadow and Flame scaling become more pronounced.
* - This point will be relatively easy to determine when a reliable spreadsheet/model is in place and someone has the time to run through the various stat values and combinations. To this point, no one has done the work or posted on where this inflection point is.
ive been using FG/Ember since I hit 80, and I have loved it. With that build the highest crit I have ever gotten was mid 7Ks, i switched over to 30/41 last night and hit a few 9.5k crits. I am very happy with either build but 30/41 seems to be out DPSing 41/30, atleast with the gear and skill level I am at.
ive been using FG/Ember since I hit 80, and I have loved it. With that build the highest crit I have ever gotten was mid 7Ks, i switched over to 30/41 last night and hit a few 9.5k crits. I am very happy with either build but 30/41 seems to be out DPSing 41/30, atleast with the gear and skill level I am at.
Remember, just big crits isn't the name of the game, you can crit for 9.5k, and see big numbers, then look at your dps and see something remarkably lower than expecting, because the imp's dps is far less than a FG's (which have reportedly gotten above 1k DPs on their own). 21/40 locks were getting 10K SB crits in BC, but until they had 4pcT6 Demo was still higher dps.
Just to confirm regarding Felguard DPS, here's my trusty Thoothun doing 1012 DPS on Patchwerk this week: Wow Web Stats
I've been running Simulationcraft pretty extensively, and it shows 0/41/30 far above 0/31/40 with my gear. I'll try finding the inflection point by inputting some higher gear numbers.
Well, I went ahead and started increasing the numbers, and to start with I was wondering if 0/31/40 actually scaled better with gear at all, because the gap didn't seem to be shrinking much. But once I made the numbers big enough I did eventually find the inflection point. With these values:
... the result shows 7049 DPS for 31/40 and 7038 DPS for 41/30.
Keep in mind those stats are all values from gear, so they're completely and utterly unrealistic with the gear currently available, and probably will be pretty unrealistic all the way through T8 as well.
EDIT: My current gear values give 4540 DPS for 31/40 and 4710 DPS for 41/30. Those values are:
Also, as a reference, I'm posting the actor definitions used for the two locks in question:
#
# Demonology Warlock
#
warlock=Warlock_0_41_30
level=80
talents=http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=IZ0xIzsgMq0sxzZVchqr0uV
actions=flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=tender_shoveltusk_steak/fire_stone/fel_armor/summon_pet,felguard
actions+=/spell_power_trinket,power=320,length=15,cooldown=90/demonic_empowerment/curse_of_agony/immolate/incinerate/life_tap
chaotic_skyflare=1
tier7_2pc=1
sundial_of_the_exiled=1
# Glyphs
glyph_immolate=1
glyph_felguard=1
glyph_curse_of_agony=1
# Pets
pet=felguard
actions=cleave/wait
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_might=550
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1
leader_of_the_pack=1
quiet=1
active=owner
pet=succubus
actions=lash_of_pain/wait
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_might=550
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1
quiet=1
active=owner
# Throw in a pair of Paladins....... Eventually these static parms will be replaced with real actors.
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1
#
# Destruction Warlock
#
warlock=Warlock_0_31_40
level=80
talents=http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=IZcxczsgMV0oZVcrVr0uVMA
actions=flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=tender_shoveltusk_steak/fire_stone/fel_armor/summon_pet,imp
actions+=/spell_power_trinket,power=320,length=15,cooldown=90/demonic_empowerment/curse_of_agony/immolate/incinerate/life_tap
chaotic_skyflare=1
sundial_of_the_exiled=1
tier7_2pc=1
# Glyphs
glyph_immolate=1
glyph_imp=1
glyph_curse_of_agony=1
# Pets
pet=imp
actions=fire_bolt
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1
quiet=1
active=owner
# Throw in a pair of Paladins....... Eventually these static parms will be replaced with real actors.
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1
The simulation covers a patchwerk-style fight lasting 3 minutes with a full raid of buffs including important contributors such as mage and elemental shaman. Real-life results will obviously be different on most other fights, depending on movement - skewed in favor of 41/30 if ranged has to move a lot, and in favor of 31/40 if melee has to move a lot.
Well, I went ahead and started increasing the numbers, and to start with I was wondering if 0/31/40 actually scaled better with gear at all, because the gap didn't seem to be shrinking much. But once I made the numbers big enough I did eventually find the inflection point. With these values:
... the result shows 7049 DPS for 31/40 and 7038 DPS for 41/30.
Keep in mind those stats are all values from gear, so they're completely and utterly unrealistic with the gear currently available, and probably will be pretty unrealistic all the way through T8 as well.
EDIT: My current gear values give 4540 DPS for 31/40 and 4710 DPS for 41/30. Those values are:
Interesting. However, have you tried this 0/31/40, removing DE and putting the point in DK? It should scale a little better (not by much).
Interesting. However, have you tried this 0/31/40, removing DE and putting the point in DK? It should scale a little better (not by much).
I tried that, and you're right, it does scale better - does 7110 DPS with the extreme gear values. A point in DK seems slightly better than DE even at my gear level, where it does 4576 now. Still well below the 4707 done by 0/41/30. The inflection point seems to be quite a bit lower with this modification, though - I'll see if I can find it.
EDIT: Found it. 6139 vs 6138 DPS using these values:
Hi all.
I've been running with the 0/41/30 build and loving it!
Last night going into a pugged 10 man Naxx, I was selfbuffed at around 2000 sp and 20% crit...roughly 200 spell hit (i swapped out some gear on the boss fights to raise the hit..etc...)
Anyways, my first Patchwerk fight.....according to someone's damage meter, I finished #1 on the damage list. I believe it also said my dps was 2K. (i'll have to check my screenshot later..)
Is it accurate to say that a damage meter in game, is no where near as accurate as running WWS, and that WWS would have shown me different numbers? I'm guessing that 2K is not including my FG also..
I have no experience with WWS but I'm going to start playing with it more...
And btw, Patchwerk took care of me for killing him so efficiently..I won the roll on his dagger (dormant memories..)
I don't understand why you would cast any DoTs as demonology.
Dots require a rotation which rarely can be kept on boss fights.
Dots dangle when the rotation is broken and your dps suffers greatly.
Dots take too long to be effective for trash fights.
Dots can't proc improved shadowbolt or demonic empathy.
As demonology, dots don't scale with haste, crit, and have low coefficients from spellpower.
The only dot I will consider using is corruption.
And that's because of glyph of corruption AND 2 piece tier 7 set bonus is a lot to turn down.
I choose a 0/53/18 build personally.
Meta offers a huge boost to damage, not only because of its 20%, but because immolation aura is extremely good.
Try out Lleulier's spreadsheet and you will see that the DoT's make a difference.
Is it accurate to say that a damage meter in game, is no where near as accurate as running WWS, and that WWS would have shown me different numbers? I'm guessing that 2K is not including my FG also..
Recount will add your minion's DPS to your total. You can toggle that on or off to show it individually or together, but the default behavior is to show both. They both use the same data to arrive at their conclusion, but "meters" are not going to show you a timeline that a proper WWS will.
It's trivial to run WWS, you can do it with your own combatlog and a free account if you just want to study for yourself, and I highly recommend it. If you're going to use Recount in-game for reporting please ensure that you're actually drilling into the player data instead of just looking at the bars. You can get a lot of useful information in Recount, but I'd advise against gluing yourself to the Damage Done and focus on the real time graph for Raid DPS during the fight.
Originally Posted by Zeln
I'm pretty sure the only reason you're on this planet is the phone rang and startled your dad.
Hi all.
I've been running with the 0/41/30 build and loving it!
Last night going into a pugged 10 man Naxx, I was selfbuffed at around 2000 sp and 20% crit...roughly 200 spell hit (i swapped out some gear on the boss fights to raise the hit..etc...)
Anyways, my first Patchwerk fight.....according to someone's damage meter, I finished #1 on the damage list. I believe it also said my dps was 2K. (i'll have to check my screenshot later..)
Is it accurate to say that a damage meter in game, is no where near as accurate as running WWS, and that WWS would have shown me different numbers? I'm guessing that 2K is not including my FG also..
I have no experience with WWS but I'm going to start playing with it more...
And btw, Patchwerk took care of me for killing him so efficiently..I won the roll on his dagger (dormant memories..)
Hi Oresteez. I also run with a 41/30 build and am similarly geared, perhaps a bit more of everything (2050 SP, 23% Crit, 330 Hit, around 350 haste) but not the first time i went into Naxx.
When you are seeing the WWS excerpts posted here they are usually from 25 man runs. You will see much larger DPS scores from 25 Mans than you will from 10 mans due to buffs and raid synergy.
Usually a DPS meter like recount will amalgamate your damage with that of your pets.
In short your DPS results seem reasonable. In 10 man stand and nuke fights like Patch I will usually hit something between 2-2.6k. 3k if the RNG/synergy gods are smiling on me.
I'm pretty much top of the meters 90% of the time so I'm fairly happy.
Can anyone else confirm that these are reasonable 10 Man numbers?
so i double checked my screenshot..
i was 2020.4 16.8%
2nd was 1907 (15.9%) he was a rogue...
there was only 1 other lock in the group, he was spec'd for haunt/soul link ...maybe he's going to start doing arena? (at least i hope for his sake..) he finished 5th with 1856
i have another question..this one is based on rotation...
let's say i have immo up on the target...and i'm casting my incinerates (lets' ignore corr and coa for now..)
so now immolate is about to expire...it has about 2 seconds left.... if i start immediately casting incinerate, most likely immo is going to fall off before incin lands... so should i cast incinerate anyway? or should i cast another immolate, and possibly clip the last second of the old one... (and this scenario ignores the fact that there is a possible bug when you clip immolate...)
From the latest patchnotes (source mmo-champion so I hope it is correct ):
Demonology
Master Conjuror now Increases the combat ratings gained from your conjured Firestone and Spellstone by 15/30%.
Pet
Devour Magic Effect range has been increased to 45 yards, please note that it's only the effect and not the Devour Magic pet ability. It could be related to the maximum healing range of the new Glyph of Felhunter.
Glyph
Glyph of Felguard - Increases the Felguard's total attack power by 20%. (Up from 10%)
Glyph of Felhunter - When your felhunter uses Devour Magic, you will also be healed for that amount. (Old - Increases the critical strike chance of your Felhunter's Shadow Bite ability by 6%.)
12/15/08, 12:10 PM
(dormant memories..)
):
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