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Old 12/03/08, 11:20 AM   3 links from elsewhere to this Post. Click to view. #51
oldlockwam
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Kargath
I notice there's a lot of talk about simcraft, but no talk of RAWR -- is RAWR not accurate?
 
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Old 12/03/08, 12:00 PM   #52
 Bethink
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Blood Elf Warlock
 
Nera'thor (EU)
Originally Posted by Kana View Post
I can't find the post now, but depending on how you think eradication's ICD works, the last point adds 4-5% more uptime for the buff, for a net gain of about 1% DPS (20% haste 5% more often = 1 percent native haste), maybe a little bit less. The first and second points contribute more.
I am not so sure about any investement in Eradication beyond the first point. From my understanding of the Eradication model, I get the following:

1 point: 18% uptime
2 points: 23% uptime
3 points: 26% uptime

Obviously, the first point contributes the most.

The active Eradiction buff is worth 656 haste. With my current gear and spec, 1 point haste equals about 0.6 DPS. So, the total buff is worth about 394 DPS at a hypothetical 100% uptime. Multiplying this by the expected uptimes yields the following:

1 point: +71 DPS
2 points: +20 DPS (for a total of +91 DPS)
3 points: +12 DPS (for a total of +103 DPS)
 
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Old 12/03/08, 12:06 PM   #53
Lothiron
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Cairne
Originally Posted by rutiene View Post
I find SimCraft very user unfriendly. Until there's a GUI, I doubt many people will be using it.
Modifying the text file is easy enough - if you read the documentation that comes with the program itself, it's pretty thorough as to how you can change and update the raid composition text file.
 
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Old 12/03/08, 12:29 PM   #54
dedmonwakeen
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Llane
Originally Posted by rutiene View Post
I find SimCraft very user unfriendly. Until there's a GUI, I doubt many people will be using it.
I'm afraid I'm barely able to keep up with modeling changes for supported classes and still make progress on bringing in new player classes.

For folks wanting quick answers with decent accuracy, Rawr and TCoM are very good tools and far more "friendly".

With SimulationCraft I was trying to solve two key problems:
(1) model multi-player asynchronous interaction
(2) model complicated event-driven mechanics

The goal was to provide a baseline against which far more "friendly" and FASTER formulation-based tools can be measured.

Once the formulation has been tweaked to be within X% of a simulated result, there really is no reason to use simulation anymore. Formulation provides a much nicer framework for both UI and data analysis.

Long-story-short: I highly doubt that a fancy UI for SimulationCraft will ever exist.

 
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Old 12/03/08, 12:42 PM   #55
Lothiron
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Undead Warlock
 
Cairne
I've actually made a rather simplistic HTML form and Perl script that I run locally to update the raid_80.txt file and kick off the executable, and then display the results.

It is by no means ready for any sort of public release, but it's definitely doable.
 
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Old 12/03/08, 4:46 PM   #56
Fulgurite
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Originally Posted by oldlockwam View Post
I notice there's a lot of talk about simcraft, but no talk of RAWR -- is RAWR not accurate?
Nope. If you look at the RAWR thread, you will see this notice in the first post (updated yesterday):

Originally Posted by Astrylian View Post
Download - Rawr - Release: Rawr 2.1.3
•Rawr.Warlock: Not updated for 3.0.
So no one's even updated RAWR for Warlocks for 3.0, much less level 80.
 
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Old 12/03/08, 5:55 PM   #57
rutiene
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Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen View Post
Long-story-short: I highly doubt that a fancy UI for SimulationCraft will ever exist.
I don't think a fancy UI needs to ever exist. Just a simple form of text boxes would be more than sufficient for most people to find it easy to use.

But nevertheless, it is definitely usable as it is for enough of the EJ lock population that we may gain much of its benefits.
 
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Old 12/03/08, 8:22 PM   #58
 Bethink
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Nera'thor (EU)
Originally Posted by Zakalwe View Post
Since I happened to be doing some simcraft runs while reading this, I'll post scaling factors for my current gear:
  Warlock_56_0_15            intellect=0.25  spirit=0.45  spell_power=1.41  hit_rating=1.17  crit_rating=0.53  haste_rating=0.74
Most numbers are in line with some manual calculations I did on a spreadsheet. However, I find the scaling of spell power hard to believe for affliction.

I have broken down a recent 240 seconds Patchwerk fight and calculated the effect of adding 100 spell power manually:

SpellDmg#Hit#Crit#DotCoefficient+100 SP
Shadow Bolt (Shadow)2185493016 85.71%5314
Corruption (Shadow)131270  78163.20%2122
Drain Soul (Shadow)108809  13857.20%2229
Unstable Affliction (Shadow)86771  61120.00%1464
Curse of Agony (Shadow)76097  103120.00%1545
Immolate (Fire)6811864 20.00%280
Immolate (Fire)68118  44100.00%880
Siphon Life (Shadow)55931  67100.00%670
Pandemic (Shadow)5046834  140.00%4760
Shaafenn : Swing (Physical)4690711022    
Haunt (Shadow)42970125 42.86%943
Shaafenn : Shadow Bite (Shadow)224792610    
Extract of Necromatic Power (Shadow)1384582 0.00%0
Lightweave Bolt (Holy)738823 0.00%0
Gain     20206
Time [s]     240
DPS Gain     84

This yields 0.84 DPS per point in spell power.

The calculation omits the 13% gained from one of the spell damage debuffs. Also, it omits the effect of spell power on the fel hound. But obviously, including these factors does not bring the resulting number even close to 1.4.

If there are errors or omissions in the above calculation, please feel free to point them out.
 
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Old 12/03/08, 8:40 PM   #59
PSGarak
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Hyjal
You're missing a lot of talents in those coefficient calculations. For example, the only thing you have for corruption is Empowered Corruption, while ignoring Shadow Embrace, Everlasting Affliction, Shadow Mastery, and Haunt (although I thought empowered corruption was additive, not multiplicative?).

 
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Old 12/03/08, 9:10 PM   #60
turturin
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Echo Isles
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
You're missing a lot of talents in those coefficient calculations. For example, the only thing you have for corruption is Empowered Corruption, while ignoring Shadow Embrace, Everlasting Affliction, Shadow Mastery, and Haunt (although I thought empowered corruption was additive, not multiplicative?).
I think the assumption is that it is now multiplicative becuase Shadow and Flame was proven to now be multiplicative. This discussion occured in the latter pages of the WoTLK preview thread iirc. I don't recall seeing any testing done on it, though. Its really just as likely that it remains additive as it definitely was before 3.0 (based on blizzard's history of consistency or lack thereof).
 
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Old 12/04/08, 10:21 AM   #61
ezet
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Jaedenar (EU)
Originally Posted by Eruantien View Post
I assumed that it would recalculate based on your current spellpower every time you refreshed it with Haunt. I'm pretty sure I've been noticing times when I've put up a trinketed Corruption at the start of a fight, and then several refreshes later have tried to refresh Corruption manually for whatever reason, and been given a "more powerful spell is already active" message.

Just anecdotal though, it'd be better if someone who actually knows what they're doing had a look at it. I'm not sure how much this would really increase the value of spell hit, either, but it'd be good to know all the same.
Just did some tests, and it does indeed recalculate and adjust corruptionticks everytime it's refreshed by Haunt/Drain Life. This goes both ways, if you apply a trinketed corruption, the first haunt cast after the trinket has run out will lower the damage. Likewise the first haunt cast after you use a trinket will increase the damage of corruption.
 
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Old 12/04/08, 12:35 PM   #62
heemo
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I really wish we had a reliable lvl 80 spreadsheet. Sure would make a lot of this easier.
 
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Old 12/04/08, 2:52 PM   #63
Nicarras
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Level 80 spreadsheets are reliant on us figuring out the new equations and such, like we are trying to in this forum, first.
 
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Old 12/04/08, 8:07 PM   #64
 Bethink
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Blood Elf Warlock
 
Nera'thor (EU)
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
You're missing a lot of talents in those coefficient calculations. For example, the only thing you have for corruption is Empowered Corruption, while ignoring Shadow Embrace, Everlasting Affliction, Shadow Mastery, and Haunt (although I thought empowered corruption was additive, not multiplicative?).
Thanks for hinting at this. Hmm... but even including these talents and the additional spell damage debuff only brings the gain to about 1.1 DPS per point. The underlying gear is hit capped and rather heavy on both haste and crit for affliction purposes with both values above 15% (implying that there is good gain from each point of spell damage.)
 
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Old 12/04/08, 9:13 PM   #65
Styg
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Human Warlock
 
Proudmoore
Raiding 10 man Naxxramas last night with 368 +hit, 14.01% on the character tooltip (upgraded legs since then and down to 367 +hit) with 3/3 Cataclysm. I still noticed partial resists on Patchwerk with Incinerate and Immolate. I would expect resists with CoA and Corruption, but not on destruction spells.

Is this because bosses have a certain amount of resistance to all spells and I should have used CoE, or am I missing something somewhere?
 
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Old 12/04/08, 9:27 PM   #66
Faldrath
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I'm pretty sure spell hit (hence, Cataclysm) does nothing regarding partial resists - it only matters to determine whether your spell hits the target or not.
 
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Old 12/05/08, 4:12 AM   #67
 dragon12
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Turalyon (EU)
Originally Posted by Faldrath View Post
I'm pretty sure spell hit (hence, Cataclysm) does nothing regarding partial resists - it only matters to determine whether your spell hits the target or not.
Also, there is nothing you can do to remove those partial resists on normal bosses (ie bosses that aren't more resistant to a certain type of school) - CoE won't help you.

Stop thinking with your nuts and start thinking with the black and bitter ball of hatred buried in your chest
 
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Old 12/05/08, 11:30 AM   #68
Debuff
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Orc Warlock
 
Sargeras
Originally Posted by Styg View Post
Raiding 10 man Naxxramas last night with 368 +hit, 14.01% on the character tooltip (upgraded legs since then and down to 367 +hit) with 3/3 Cataclysm. I still noticed partial resists on Patchwerk with Incinerate and Immolate. I would expect resists with CoA and Corruption, but not on destruction spells.

Is this because bosses have a certain amount of resistance to all spells and I should have used CoE, or am I missing something somewhere?
Yep, bosses get innate resistances due to being +3 to you. You will never be able to overcome those resistances so you will always get some partial resist. As others have noted, even if you could overcome the bosses resistances it would be with spell penetration (or CoE) and not spell hit. Spell hit only affects whether the spell hits or misses* while resistances affect how much the damage registers for.


*It is possible that a spell can fully resist if the victim has enough spell resistances. However, these cases are displayed as Resist. If you see a spell fail completely then a "Resist" will indicate it was due to spell resistances while a "Miss" will indicate it was due to lack of spell hit rating.
 
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Old 12/06/08, 8:27 AM   #69
fip
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Proudmoore
Originally Posted by oldlockwam View Post
The 1% Draeni racial is called "Heroic Presence" and applies to party only, not raid.
Incorrect, we tested this just this week in fact. Pretty simple to test that Heroic Presence has been altered to affect the entire raid. Whee, only need 1 Draenei now!
 
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Old 12/06/08, 8:30 AM   #70
fip
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Originally Posted by dragon12 View Post
Also, there is nothing you can do to remove those partial resists on normal bosses (ie bosses that aren't more resistant to a certain type of school) - CoE won't help you.
Partial Resists are a direct result of a boss' resist value, how exactly does CoE and spell penetration not help?
 
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Old 12/06/08, 12:24 PM   #71
Debuff
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Originally Posted by fip View Post
Partial Resists are a direct result of a boss' resist value, how exactly does CoE and spell penetration not help?
Because they get innate resistances as a result of being +3 to you. They don't have an actual resistance amount, they just resist some spells as if they do. This is something that was proven in the other warlock megathread. You can look through there for more details.
 
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Old 12/07/08, 12:45 PM   #72
Katathia
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Gnomeregan
The topic of pet hit rating has been touched upon briefly (Warlock: Simple Questions/Simple Answers) but after parsing numerous WWS reports using both the felhunter and the imp - it appears that my felhunter misses approximately 8-9% more than myself and the imp. While taking into consideration dodge, that still leaves about 4% miss that I can not account for since the pet automatically attacks from behind.

WWS All Bosses with Imp at ~11% hit
WWS All Bosses with Felhunter at ~10% hit
WWS All Bosses with Felhunter at ~11% hit

% hit listed is my personal paper-doll hit rating. I get an additional 3% from talents, 1% from Draenei and 3% from misery. Is there something else going on with the felhunter and hit rating that could account for this additional consistent 4% miss on swing damage? I could understand the pets not getting the hit from my talents but the imp seems to do just fine.
 
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Old 12/07/08, 2:44 PM   #73
Bessa
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Melee abilities require to meet the melee (white) hit cap, which is alot higher than the 17% required for spells, hense every Felguard/puppy miss alot more. its something you have to accept as stacking to the correct hit cap for pets, will reduce your dps overall.
 
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Old 12/07/08, 3:11 PM   #74
Katathia
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Originally Posted by Bessa View Post
Melee abilities require to meet the melee (white) hit cap, which is alot higher than the 17% required for spells, hense every Felguard/puppy miss alot more. its something you have to accept as stacking to the correct hit cap for pets, will reduce your dps overall.
I was under the impression that the melee white hit cap was 9% (or 295 hit rating) for felhunters since they don't dual-wield. Since I sit at around 291 (or ~11% spell hit) I wouldn't think that this is the cause.

Last edited by Katathia : 12/07/08 at 4:18 PM. Reason: Clarification
 
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Old 12/07/08, 5:39 PM   #75
Akj
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Suramar
Originally Posted by Katathia View Post
The topic of pet hit rating has been touched upon briefly (Warlock: Simple Questions/Simple Answers) but after parsing numerous WWS reports using both the felhunter and the imp - it appears that my felhunter misses approximately 8-9% more than myself and the imp. While taking into consideration dodge, that still leaves about 4% miss that I can not account for since the pet automatically attacks from behind.

WWS All Bosses with Imp at ~11% hit
WWS All Bosses with Felhunter at ~10% hit
WWS All Bosses with Felhunter at ~11% hit

% hit listed is my personal paper-doll hit rating. I get an additional 3% from talents, 1% from Draenei and 3% from misery. Is there something else going on with the felhunter and hit rating that could account for this additional consistent 4% miss on swing damage? I could understand the pets not getting the hit from my talents but the imp seems to do just fine.
I'm repeating myself here, there isnt a single miss in the WWS reports that you linked. All of them are just dodges & parries.
 
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