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Old 12/02/08, 12:30 AM   #31
Tauraherion
Glass Joe
 
Human Warlock
 
Gurubashi
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
Unlikely, shadowbolt still refreshes both.
Shadowbolt does not refresh Corruption. 5/5 Everlasting Affliction tooltip is: "(...)and your Drain Life and Haunt spells have a 100% chance to reset the duration of your Corruption spell on the target."

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Old 12/02/08, 12:45 AM   #32
Akj
Piston Honda
 
Orc Warlock
 
Suramar
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
Unlikely, shadowbolt still refreshes both. Even at 4% miss on destro spells, the odds of every shadowbolt missing in the same 18-second window as a haunt resist is unlikely. And if it does happen all you've lost is 1.5s of filler on corruption. Shadow Embrace is half the effect of Haunt, so it's going to alter the final analysis no more than 50%.
As pointed out, shadowbolt does not refresh corruption. It is not the preferred filler sub 25% either so if SE drops off you have to wait a while for it to stack back up.

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Old 12/02/08, 2:25 AM   #33
Drundia
Piston Honda
 
Undead Warlock
 
Sylvanas (EU)
Originally Posted by Nicarras View Post
I can follow this line of thinking, but at least in the case of affliction and SBs still making up a large percentage of your damage. It remains to be seen where exactly the line is between 'Gearing to cap SB w/o talents' and 'Dont gear to cap it and stack dmg'. There may be a place in the middle that is more optimal but I just dont think that enough of us have had time to test yet.
I repeat: it's questionable if Hit is more cost-efficient stat than Spell Power even before you reach that partial hit cap. By the time you get enough Spell Power to make it worth gemming for Hit you will probably have capped it anyway, at least for talented spells. I would make a bet that it's worth capping Shadow Bolt hit for Affliction (when Affliciton is capped with Suppression) no earlier than at 5000 Spell Power, and then you still may benefit more from other ratings.

Originally Posted by Lothiron View Post
I'm shooting for keeping the 368 hit rating for two main reasons.

1) Soulshatter is capped as long as a shadow priest is alive. Good to know that in those 'oh shit' moments I don't have a 3% chance of getting screwed.
2) If the shadow priest dies, disconnects, goes afk to get her kids dinner, etc, I'll still be hit capped on Haunt. I -absolutely- hate it when Haunt or any of my dots miss; completely screws up my rotation.
In order to want to cap hit for Soulshatter first of all you must make a reasonable assumption that you may need Soulshatter if everything goes fine. Reality is that when everything goes fine it doesn't seem to be needed.

While Haunt miss is indeed an issue, DOT miss is more of a nuissance than a catastrophe, since in reality you don't have any rotation to screw to begin with.

Originally Posted by Ravelvan View Post
For a Destruction build, I think hit is still slightly better than spell power
What I remember is that around 2000 Spell Power, Chaos Bolt wins this race for Spell Power. The breakpoint is somewhere between 2500 and 3000 (a guess), but those calculations done didn't really account for Immolate and Corruption misses taking away damage from Incinerates rather than themselves, they only accounted for Chaos Bolt never missing which happened to be absolutely enough at that gear level.

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Old 12/02/08, 5:16 AM   #34
Draele
Don Flamenco
 
Human Warlock
 
Thunderhorn
I've been running 14% hit, +3% from Suppression to cap Affliction. Absolutely necessary to not have Haunt resists, not so much for the sake of the debuff, but rather to keep Corruption rolling. Getting something like +940 Spellpower Corruption rolling (Renew Corr. when Sundial procs and activate Mark of the War Prisoner) keeping this larger tick up is quite important.

If Destruction stays at 14%- not a huge deal, but more likely than not the slack will be picked up by Misery/Imp FF anyway.

Rantings of the Afflicted, a Warlock blog: http://draele.blogspot.com/

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Old 12/02/08, 5:20 AM   #35
 dragon12
Likes gnomes
 
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Greenilocks
Gnome Warlock
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by Draele View Post
Getting something like +940 Spellpower Corruption rolling (Renew Corr. when Sundial procs and activate Mark of the War Prisoner) keeping this larger tick up is quite important.
I'm pretty sure that every time Corruption is renewed by Haunt it recalculates the damage rather than continuing with trinketed damage from the previous application.

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Old 12/02/08, 6:59 AM   #36
BeerBelly
Von Kaiser
 
Human Warlock
 
Silvermoon (EU)
I was wondering about that as well. Does corruption continue to tick at the spellpower coefficient calculated when you cast the dot or does it recalculate the value at each tick. The first time I read the tooltip of the talent I presumed the first. But seeing more and more claims otherwise, I guess I'll need to do a quick test to determine which one it is.

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Old 12/02/08, 7:50 AM   #37
DiamondTear
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Lightning's Blade (EU)
I'd like to see more comparisons between cataclysm and ISB for an affliction-capped warlock.

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Old 12/02/08, 8:16 AM   #38
Kana
Von Kaiser
 
Goblin Shaman
 
Kil'Jaeden
Regardless of whether or not spelldamage is better than hit in a pure mathmatical sense, most warlocks are still going to want to wind up wanting to be hitcapped.

Hit scales like haste; the more damage and crit you have, the more you like hit. Since hit is cheaper in terms of item budget than haste (or crit, but that's more complicated) and should produce similar returns, a warlock trying maximize DPS using real gear should be prioritizing pieces that provide hit, assuming equal item levels. Probably hit will be prioritized over haste anyway, because at a fairly low level of gear (ilvl 200-213) the combination of haste from gear, talents, buffs and procs starts bumping you into the hard GCD cap. For a class doing a large part of it's DPS using GCD casts, this is something to be avoided when possible.

The real discussion with hit for affliction is about the opportunity cost of cataclysm. Suppression should be mandatory for both affliction and destruction builds, both because of the mana cost component and because there isn't much else in the low end of the affliction tree. Taking cataclysm in a standard 56/0/15 build costs us 3 points of ISB. The -3% mana cost lets us cast 3% more shadowbolts over the length of a fight (time spent not-lifetapping), so the question is whether or not 3*(uptime) percent more damage is greater than the flat 3% more SB damage you get from the +hit. Should be a pretty easy question to answer given some study of the buff's uptime, and until gear gets to the point where going over the hitcap becomes a concern, it should come down pretty decisively on the side of cataclysm.

I think destruction takes both hit talents regardless, just because of where they fall in the trees.

Last edited by Kana : 12/02/08 at 8:24 AM.

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Old 12/02/08, 1:35 PM   #39
PSGarak
Bald Bull
 
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Undead Warlock
 
Hyjal
Sorry about the slipup with Everlasting Affliction. That increases the cost of a missed haunt by 3/5 of a shadowbolt, effectively making a haunt resist similar to a DoT resist. Since you're losing a lower-damage spell than the one you're casting it's less than 1% DPS per 1% hit, although much more comparable than it used to be.

Kana, if I'm understanding you right, you're saying that since hit is still affliction's best rating (which is probably true), and gear has multiple DPS stats, we're going to end up with hit because we'll be going for dmg/hit pieces rather than dmg/crit or dmg/haste. While I agree this is true that we'll end up with a good amount of hit, that doesn't necessarily mean we'll end up hit-capped. I haven't paged through various levels of gear, but if you were to need gems to hit-cap, it would be better not to and go for raw +dmg instead.


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Old 12/02/08, 4:02 PM   #40
Kana
Von Kaiser
 
Goblin Shaman
 
Kil'Jaeden
Well, my gear is nothing special and I'm already floating around 10 or 11% hit from gear, without gemming (couple weeks of 10naxx and badge/craftable gear, along with one or two sunwell pieces.) And it honestly wouldn't really be that difficult to get up to 12 or 13 percent if 1-2 of the right upgrades drop for me. I think you're going to see a lot of warlocks floating around 12 or 13% (although maybe not trying too hard to be right at the cap) by the time we're midway through T8, if not sooner.

I also think people are overlooking the utility of hit for maintaining an efficient cycle. It isn't something you can quantify, but being at or near the hitcap should have a positive effect on dot uptime. Affliction plays pretty fast, especially with a decent amount of haste, and I usually find myself thinking 2-3 casts "ahead" of my timer. The upshot of this is that if UA (for example) does miss, I don't just recast it immediately; by the time I notice that it missed, I've already cast another instant and maybe started another SB. At that point I've either lost uptime or wasted casting time (if I interrupt whatever the next cast is to refresh UA instead.) Destruction, esp. with backdraft, can be even faster.

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Old 12/02/08, 4:35 PM   #41
Drade
Glass Joe
 
Undead Warlock
 
<Og>
Burning Legion
Kana - You also have the option of taking 1/3 Eradication and no Dark Pact, or 2/3 Erad and 4/5 ISB. There are several combinations if you wanted 3/3 Cataclysm. It just depends on if the second and third points from Erad, or the fifth point in ISB are worth more dps than 3% to SB/Immo.

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Old 12/02/08, 5:57 PM   #42
Kana
Von Kaiser
 
Goblin Shaman
 
Kil'Jaeden
I think 3/3 eradication is probably still better.

I can't find the post now, but depending on how you think eradication's ICD works, the last point adds 4-5% more uptime for the buff, for a net gain of about 1% DPS (20% haste 5% more often = 1 percent native haste), maybe a little bit less. The first and second points contribute more.

If you assume SB is contributing 1/3 of your damage (possibly even a high estimate based on the WWS I've seen linked) and that you crit enough to keep the buff up 100% of the time, every talent point in ISB is generating .66% more DPS. And between haunt eating charges and current gear levels, no one's coming even close to 100% uptime.

Edit: and yeah, I could lose dark pact. But it's such a useful ability on fights when lifetapping is sort of dicey (like loatheb, for example) that I have a hard time dropping it.

Last edited by Kana : 12/02/08 at 6:06 PM.

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Old 12/02/08, 6:08 PM   #43
Lothiron
Glass Joe
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Area 52
Originally Posted by Drundia View Post
In order to want to cap hit for Soulshatter first of all you must make a reasonable assumption that you may need Soulshatter if everything goes fine. Reality is that when everything goes fine it doesn't seem to be needed.
To each their own. I prefer to be prepared for the occasional catastrophe, rather than assume it won't happen.

While Haunt miss is indeed an issue, DOT miss is more of a nuissance than a catastrophe, since in reality you don't have any rotation to screw to begin with.
I realize that I don't have a rotation per se. Affliction DPS isn't a rotation; this has been well established over and over again on this board. However, 'rotation' is a word most will recognize; if I refer to a Haunt miss 'screwing up my priority queue in the affliction DPS scheduling algorithm.' that will fly over a few heads.

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Old 12/03/08, 4:12 AM   #44
Disenchant
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Hellscream (EU)
As for the issue of Cataclysm and Suppression, I think that getting hit capped with Affliction is far more important then being hit capped with Destro, only due to the fact that if I get my Immolate or SB resisted, it's no biggy and I can recast it if I really want it, as oppose to Haunt that I can't recast it for 12 sec (if I'm not mistaken). Also, as Affliction spec, I have only 15 points to invest in the Destro tree, and as much as I would have liked to get those nice 3% to my Destro hit, I'd still rather take 5/5 Ruin...

Also, the idea of potions and food buffs is nice to get us hit-capped, but lets not forget that instead you could have gotten more Spellpower that as was shown before, is most of the times more beneficial then +Hit.

Ain't saying Hit capped ain't important, just don't go over your head to get it - I'd rather gem myself with Spellpower then hit.

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Old 12/03/08, 5:11 AM   #45
Fenz
Glass Joe
 
Undead Warlock
 
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
but lets not forget that instead you could have gotten more Spellpower that as was shown before, is most of the times more beneficial then +Hit.
Where was this shown? I would like to see because I have a hard time believing it especially when talking about raid bosses.

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