Dots and you: The Affliction Warlock Thread - Page 11

• dragon12 · 01/02/09, 8:14 PM

Originally Posted by Melbuframa

Because this is the first time I’ve looked at the gear listing on the first post, Can you explain how you came up with those rankings as some of them don’t make any sense. It looks like you are massively overvaluing Spirit and Hit.

The minimum Spirit could be valued at would be 30% of spell power; I would guess that the extra few % are from lifetap scaling.

RoyalBoss · 01/02/09, 8:37 PM

Everywhere i read it says you should use CoA over CoD. I'm a little confused why. I'm a destro spec for pvp right now so i can't really test it with haunt. But here are some numbers (Yes I have the CoA glyph)

(This is also done with just a spellstone & fel armor up)

In 2 GCDs you get 56 seconds worth of CoA. So every minute you have to use 2 GCDs. Working on target dummys my CoA after the full 28 seconds (or 14 ticks) my CoA does on average 5081 damage. Add in the 10% CoA damage you get from Imp CoA and you get roughly 5589 damage in 28 seconds.

So in 1 minute you will get 11,178 damage from CoA in 56 seconds.

My Curse of Doom after 1 minute on average ticks off 11,660 damage.

The only thing I can't really test right now is if CoD is actually affected by Haunt. Because if both CoA & CoD are affected by haunt, then technically they will both be doing about the same damage in the same amount of time. Just using CoD you get that extra GCD, which in turn wouldn't that give you that 1 extra GCD for a cast, refresh a dot, or lifetap?

Everything I read says that CoA > CoD. Can anyone please tell me exactly why, or what I am doing wrong?

Thanks,

(PS.)
I also think switching between them would be smart. If by the time your first doom goes off and the boss is at less than 50% throw up CoA. Or if you about know how long your fights on average last, judge how many CoDs you think you'll be able to get off successfully before casting CoA.

I know it's a pretty big DPS loss if your CoD isn't allowed to go off, but it seems you should at least always start with it up?

Mystearica · 01/02/09, 8:56 PM

Originally Posted by RoyalBoss

Everywhere i read it says you should use CoA over CoD. I'm a little confused why. I'm a destro spec for pvp right now so i can't really test it with haunt. But here are some numbers (Yes I have the CoA glyph)

(This is also done with just a spellstone & fel armor up)

In 2 GCDs you get 56 seconds worth of CoA. So every minute you have to use 2 GCDs. Working on target dummys my CoA after the full 28 seconds (or 14 ticks) my CoA does on average 5081 damage. Add in the 10% CoA damage you get from Imp CoA and you get roughly 5589 damage in 28 seconds.

So in 1 minute you will get 11,178 damage from CoA in 56 seconds.

My Curse of Doom after 1 minute on average ticks off 11,660 damage.

The only thing I can't really test right now is if CoD is actually affected by Haunt. Because if both CoA & CoD are affected by haunt, then technically they will both be doing about the same damage in the same amount of time. Just using CoD you get that extra GCD, which in turn wouldn't that give you that 1 extra GCD for a cast, refresh a dot, or lifetap?

Everything I read says that CoA > CoD. Can anyone please tell me exactly why, or what I am doing wrong?

Thanks,

(PS.)
I also think switching between them would be smart. If by the time your first doom goes off and the boss is at less than 50% throw up CoA. Or if you about know how long your fights on average last, judge how many CoDs you think you'll be able to get off successfully before casting CoA.

I know it's a pretty big DPS loss if your CoD isn't allowed to go off, but it seems you should at least always start with it up?

Out of boredom I went to the Target dummy. Completely unbuffed(even w/o fel armor) my CoA did roughly 20k dmg in 1min w/o the glyph, with 1 missed haunt & SE falling off cuz I'm being lazy for this test. CoD did roughly 12k dmg both with & w/o Haunt up. My assumption is that CoD isn't affected by haunt & CoA > CoD.

RoyalBoss · 01/02/09, 9:01 PM

Originally Posted by Mystearica

Out of boredom I went to the Target dummy. Completely unbuffed(even w/o fel armor) my CoA did roughly 20k dmg in 1min w/o the glyph, with 1 missed haunt & SE falling off cuz I'm being lazy for this test. CoD did roughly 12k dmg both with & w/o Haunt up. My assumption is that CoD isn't affected by haunt & CoA > CoD.

Well if Haunt doesn't affect CoD then that's probably a bug and should be fixed. Seeing how CoD is damage over time...a little later tonight I'll probably go back to my PvE affliction spec and try it out some more.

Thanks for the quick response though

Liania · 01/02/09, 10:04 PM

Deleted cause I'm stupid :x

RoyalBoss · 01/02/09, 10:33 PM

Molten core will be up with or without CoA....this is an affliction thread bud.

That is if you even spec for MC while affliction...

Zaleiria · 01/03/09, 5:00 AM

Originally Posted by RoyalBoss

Everywhere i read it says you should use CoA over CoD. I'm a little confused why. I'm a destro spec for pvp right now so i can't really test it with haunt. But here are some numbers (Yes I have the CoA glyph)
[...]

It's my understanding that CoD isn't affected by Shadow Mastery (nor apparently Death's Embrace?) for some strange reason. Additionally, CoD is not affected by Contagion, while CoA is.

The summary post claims that CoD also does not benefit from haunt and other periodic damage increasing effects, which is supported by Mystearica's quick testing. You probably want to take a look, it's on the first page of this thread.

Smurrf · 01/03/09, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by RoyalBoss

Well if Haunt doesn't affect CoD then that's probably a bug and should be fixed. Seeing how CoD is damage over time...a little later tonight I'll probably go back to my PvE affliction spec and try it out some more.

Thanks for the quick response though

CoD is not damage over time.

It's a delayed direct damage spell (that can't crit). Hence, Haunt does not affect CoD, yet does affect CoA.

rutiene · 01/03/09, 12:41 PM

CoD is just kind of gimped. It's not treated as a DD or as a DoT. Wonder if that was intentional in the design of the spell.

Fatsummoner · 01/03/09, 2:07 PM

Now, after reading up on spell hit, and rotations, i'm wondering if haste would be a bigger upgrade for me personally.

I have 372 hit rating at the moment, with my talents in suppression i'm hit capped on my own for my dots. Whenever i raid with my guild theres usually a shadow priest, boomkin, and always a draenei. Would it be better for me to switch so reckless gems, to increase my haste. That would allow me to fit more filler shadowbolts before starting the refresh process.

krilz · 01/03/09, 3:31 PM

Definitely. I'm aiming for 289 hit which is around 11%. With 3% from talents and a shadow priest and a boomkin (which we always have in raid) I'm hitcapped. For Alliance you only need 10%, that would be 266 hit if memory serves me right. I don't give a darn if I'm not hitcapped in 10-mans since those raids are so easy. If I really need the extra hit I always carry with me the [Mark of the War Prisoner].

EDIT: Took a look at your gear, you would probably be better of though with gemming for pure spell power in every socket since the overall of it will be better regardless of socket bonuses. Also try to prioritize haste over crit when it comes to gear as Affliction.

rutiene · 01/03/09, 5:13 PM

Originally Posted by Fatsummoner

Now, after reading up on spell hit, and rotations, i'm wondering if haste would be a bigger upgrade for me personally.

I have 372 hit rating at the moment, with my talents in suppression i'm hit capped on my own for my dots. Whenever i raid with my guild theres usually a shadow priest, boomkin, and always a draenei. Would it be better for me to switch so reckless gems, to increase my haste. That would allow me to fit more filler shadowbolts before starting the refresh process.

Why haste and not spellpower? Spellpower is worth a lot more than haste or crit, point by point. And yes, if you always raid with an Spriest and a Draenei, and you have 3/3 in Suppression, your hitcap is 262 (+10%). I'd personally start taking points out of Suppression and try and trade out a few hit pieces to aim for 341 (+13%) to be completely spellhit capped.

Fatsummoner · 01/03/09, 5:59 PM

The way it was worked out in my head, i figured that the haste would help to round out the amount of filler time i had. Also being able to refresh dots faster, and reduce dead time.

Would working off more spellpower be more beneficial to me?

And as far as moving talent points around, i'd rather keep it so that i can become hit capped without relying on a draenei and shadow priest. That way heroics, and 10-mans would be all the more easier. But where would i put the talents in?

What amount of haste is the limit of actual effectiveness in an affliction rotation?

rutiene · 01/03/09, 6:02 PM

Originally Posted by Fatsummoner

The way it was worked out in my head, i figured that the haste would help to round out the amount of filler time i had. Also being able to refresh dots faster, and reduce dead time.

Would working off more spellpower be more beneficial to me?

And as far as moving talent points around, i'd rather keep it so that i can become hit capped without relying on a draenei and shadow priest. That way heroics, and 10-mans would be all the more easier.

What amount of haste is the limit of actual effectiveness in an affliction rotation.

I understand that want. What I personally do is grab and keep hit pieces for those times when you do need the extra hit. Win-win. But if you want to min/max for raiding, dropping those points would be the way to go.

And yes, spellpower is worth more than haste, point by point. It's said so very clearly in the first post. I recommend you go take a look at it.

SRneo · 01/04/09, 9:46 PM

I understand according to the first post that Haste is more DPS than crit, but is that the case in real boss encounters?

For example: Most people entering Naxx, such as myself, have close to 11% haste. This results in a ~1.34 cast time for Haunt, Immolate, and Unstable Affliction, and lowers the GCD to 1.34 seconds as well. The thing is, how much do tenths of a second make? We're all human, and when you throw in latency, we'll never be able to hit the UA, Haunt, or Immolate hotkey right as our DoTimer says 1.3 for the respective spell. My point is: Haste doesn't result in a sure DPS increase because we are all human, so shouldn't we lean more towards something more reliable like crit for Pandemic?

I apologize in advance if this has been asked or addressed earlier for I do not have the time to search for this on my own. I also apologize is this is absolute nonsense.

Ravelvan · 01/04/09, 10:18 PM

I think most people would say that if you are waiting and trying to time your DoTs perfectly to refresh right as the previous one expires, that you are doing it wrong. You should be constantly spamming the next spell that you need to cast, so that you are never not casting. As long as you are doing this, DPS gain due to haste should be just as automatic as DPS gain due to crit.

Blackren · 01/05/09, 2:02 AM

Haste, while nice, is more of a filler stat than anything. Crit is near useless despite the new Pandemic changes, and that's because it impacts 4 of the 6 spells that you cast. Even then, Ruin doesn't effect Haunt, so it hurts up even more.

I've found that as I get more and more geared, haste becomes more and more scary as you quickly hit the haste cap when using things like Pandemic and other spells. Almost every spell power thing has some other stat on it, and conveniently, a lot of our "Best in slots" have haste as the other stat.

My priorities look like this:
1) Spell hit up to 290, though 317 is acceptable
2) Spell power
3) Spell haste up to 25%
4) Spirit / Crit
5) Everything else

It's TERRIBLE to look at haste as a "how many more shadowbolts can I fit between DoT refreshes?" If anything, you should look at it as "how much more quickly can I re-apply my DoT's?" If you get 25% more haste, every Dot that had a 1.5 second spell now has a 1.2 second spell. UA, Haunt, Siphon Life, Immolate, CoA, combined, save you a total of 1.5 seconds. That's 75% of a shadowbolt every time you re-apply DoT's.

The fact is, haste has an IMMEDIATE impact on every single spell you cast. It makes every spell cast faster. If you only had about 10 or 11% haste, you'd still be casting significantly more spells than if you had 0.

Let's also not forget how much of an impact haste makes at Drain Soul point. I LOVE haste and bloodlust in drain soul range. The 12 second spell gets reduced to an 8 second spell, which makes it very easy to keep Haunt up and thus juggle DoT's around.

Cigaras · 01/05/09, 4:24 AM

Originally Posted by Namnalia

Chaotic Skyflare Diamond
This increases the crit multipliers of Haunt, Shadow Bolt and Immolate from 50% / 100% to 53% / 103%. The dps increase with the above stats is only 9.75 dps total, not even assuming you use drain soul for the last 25% of the boss' hp. Of course, this gem effect scales, but I guess it won't ever overcome the spell power gems.

Downloaded the latest version of Simmulationcraft, default settings, created a copy of Affliction Warlock 56_0_15 and added these lines:

chaotic_skyflare=0
enchant_crit_rating=-21
enchant_spell_power=+25

a.k.a. swapped Chaotic meta with whatever spell power meta, the results were following:

Warlock_56_0_15			5645
Warlock_56_0_15_no_chaotic	5635
Warlock_56_0_15_no_meta		5600

ward0112 · 01/05/09, 6:33 AM

I saw on a thread here somewhere about being able to set up timer ticks for the Addon MIK's Scrolling Battle Text to tell you when your three seconds were up on your drain soul. Does anyone know how to set this up?

Demondan · 01/05/09, 8:39 AM

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...h=121703020406

Above is the spec I've been using, but after reading this thread I've realized that I should spec into Molten Core. The first post also says that "your pet is fine without this" regarding Improved Felhunter. Doesn't the felpup run out of mana during boss fights, or does it take too long for it to run out of mana for the talent to be worth one point to keep his mana up (I have 1/2 Imp. Felhunter atm)?

So, my question is, how many points should I put in MC and from what talents? I am considering one or two points from Imp. Felhunter, Eradication (as the last point only gives 0.5 % haste according to the first post) and Imp. Shadow Bolt.

krilz · 01/05/09, 9:49 AM

The first point in MC will you a uptime of ~70% I believe and you don't need any point in Imp. Felhunter; it will still never go oom. Eradication is a talent that you can points in it if you have extra but at least 1 has to go there. This is the spec I run with currently and I personally think it's the best around. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Once gear gets better and you can get much, much more hit without sacrificing other stats, put the 3 points from Cataclysm into Imp. SB and Demonic Power for some extra juice.

Auze · 01/05/09, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Blackren

Crit is near useless despite the new Pandemic changes, and that's because it impacts 4 of the 6 spells that you cast.

Is this really true? Even for Afflic Warlocks, most of our damage comes from Shadow Bolts.

rutiene · 01/05/09, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Auze

Is this really true? Even for Afflic Warlocks, most of our damage comes from Shadow Bolts.

Just because our highest damaging spell is Shadow Bolt does not mean most of our damage comes from it. Most of our damage comes from DoTs. Affliction is about lots of damage coming from a combination of spells, to focus on one 'more damaging' spell only gimps you. Haste effects 100% of our spells. Crit effects half of them.

@Cigaras: Did you adjust for the change in gemming as well?
@Krilz: I'm not sure where you got that number from. According to the spreadsheet (which, I've actually checked the model for and seems pretty accurate), 1/3 MC gives 58.9% uptime (with 400 Haste).

Demondan · 01/05/09, 12:03 PM

I wouldn't say crit is "nearly useless". Look at the numbers from the first post for starter Naxx gear.

10 hit rating = 14.07 dps
10 spell power = 13.12 dps
10 haste rating = 5.48 dps
10 crit rating = 3.75 dps
10 spirit = 4.33 dps
10 int = 1.14 dps

As we can see here, 3 crit rating is worse than 1 spell power, but if you're a serious raider, even intellect should count when you have to decide between two gear pieces. If for example all stats are equal except one piece has 5 more crit and one has 20 more int, you should pick the one with int (unless the numbers change drastically with the gear level).

Kalle · 01/05/09, 12:19 PM

I think there are some errors/problems in "The math part" in the second post. I noticed the following (my testing was done on 3.0.8 PTR, if there are any differences to live):

Contagion is missing in the calculation of CoA's damage
The spell power coefficient of UA was reduced to 1.0 when its duration was changed to 15s
The base damage of immolate's DoT component is 785 according to Wowhead, not 765
Haunt crits for 1.5x of the non-crit damage, so the average damage is only (1 + 0.5*crit) times the non-crit damage
You neglect the effect of a missed haunt on the uptime of the debuff, if you assume that you wait 10s before recasting even in the case of a miss you could just replace the 1.2 with (1 + 0.2*hit).
Death's embrace and drain soul's execute are additive. The damage below 25% HP is almost exactly 4.12 times the damage above 35%
The last time I checked (3.0.3 PTR I believe), destruction crits were 2.09 times the non-crit damage with chaotic skyfire diamond (and 1.545 times without ruin), are you sure that this has changed? If this is still the case, the CSD should be comparable or even better than the 25 spell power metagems.
Doing avg_dmg = damage*hit is very poor for DoTs. This would mean that you don't recast after the miss. If you do, you would have to consider multiple effects: A decreased uptime of the DoT (you need at least one gcd before you can recast), less time available to cast the filler spell (because having to cast more than once) [and increased mana usage].
It seems that the damage of drain life/soul is increased by shadow embrace (but not by haunt)
Immolate's direct damage portion is also increased by shadow embrace and haunt