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Old 12/18/08, 11:02 AM   #166
Melbuframa
Don Flamenco
 
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Gnome Warlock
 
Ner'zhul
Originally Posted by rutiene View Post
Cataclysm only effect your Shadowbolt and your Immolate, it really is not worth it to max hitcap yourself for both destro and affliction.
I disagree with that, Shadow Bolt is still a very large % of our DPS. More then any other spell besides Drain Soul on most fights, missing it sucks. If you run a 53/0/18 build dropping 2 out of ISB for MC is better then dropping 2 out of Cataclysm.

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Old 12/18/08, 1:26 PM   #167
Mindaika
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Death Knight
 
Frostwolf
Originally Posted by groin View Post
the best way to use the Infernal is a one minute after the death of the boss right? such as a patchwerk lasting 3 minutes, you'll use for the first two minutes the pet and towards the end (one minute before) summon the Infernal?
Exactly. Right after looting is best.

I assume you meant "before" though, so yes. That gives you all of your regular pet uptime, plus the infernal. In practice though, it's hard to know exactly when "1 minute" before the end is, unless you're running close to the enrage timer, so you'll likely be off by a bit.

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Old 12/18/08, 3:38 PM   #168
Moror
Glass Joe
 
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Draenei Shaman
 
Frostmane (EU)
Originally Posted by Kabale View Post
but our Rogues decided to abuse HAT and managed to drop it to 3:03

Just wondering what you mean by HAT? I was thinking Honor Among Thieves as you're talking about rogues but I couldn't see how that would provide a significat dps increase.

Just had a look at that WWS you posted actually and I must be missing something, the top two rogues on that Patchwerk kill didn't have any combo point moves listed.

Sorry for derailing the subject.

Last edited by Moror : 12/18/08 at 3:47 PM.

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Old 12/18/08, 4:10 PM   #169
Mystearica
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Warlock
 
Magtheridon
Originally Posted by Moror View Post
Just wondering what you mean by HAT? I was thinking Honor Among Thieves as you're talking about rogues but I couldn't see how that would provide a significat dps increase.

Just had a look at that WWS you posted actually and I must be missing something, the top two rogues on that Patchwerk kill didn't have any combo point moves listed.

Sorry for derailing the subject.
Basically with 2 HAT rogues in a group with other classes that crit a lot will provide the rogues with constant 5 combo pts. So they can literally spam eviscerate/rupture/snd w/o ever having to use a combo point generating skill such as sinister strike.

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Old 12/18/08, 4:19 PM   #170
 Nicarras
Keyboard Cowboy
 
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Undead Priest
 
Illidan
Originally Posted by Mystearica View Post
Basically with 2 HAT rogues in a group with other classes that crit a lot will provide the rogues with constant 5 combo pts. So they can literally spam eviscerate/rupture/snd w/o ever having to use a combo point generating skill such as sinister strike.
ie. how i lost to 2 rogues last night
Wow Web Stats

HAT is broken, and GC commented that the combo point part of the bug is not working correctly. We stack their group usually with Hunters, since their pets crits also count...

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Old 12/18/08, 5:17 PM   #171
rutiene
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Warlock
 
Deathwing
Originally Posted by Melbuframa View Post
I disagree with that, Shadow Bolt is still a very large % of our DPS. More then any other spell besides Drain Soul on most fights, missing it sucks. If you run a 53/0/18 build dropping 2 out of ISB for MC is better then dropping 2 out of Cataclysm.
Have you done the theorycrafting as I had detailed in my post as well? I flipflopped between the two, then when I sat down and crunched the numbers, damaged gained through MC was far greater than my DPS lost for being 3% under hit cap for every single fight.

Having SB miss does suck. But you have to realize that over the course of a 4min fight standstill fight (aka. Patchwerks), 3% miss rate is about 1.5 misses. That's not a lot of damage lost at all. On average (for me) that's about 9k damage lost on average PER fight. That's -37.5dps (or in other words a +37.5dps gain for 3 talent points, very shoddy). Whenever we use the argument that SB is a large % of our DPS as an excuse to hitcap destro, we're making a very misleading assumption. It doesn't matter that SB is a large %, because its DPCT sucks. And our overall DPS on a long fight is really a weighted average of our DPCT. (Well, a lot more complicated than our weighted average. But the general gist of it.)

Last edited by rutiene : 12/18/08 at 5:30 PM.

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Old 12/18/08, 5:36 PM   #172
Emolate
Bald Bull
 
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Goblin Warlock
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by rutiene View Post
Have you done the theorycrafting as I had detailed in my post as well? I flipflopped between the two, then when I sat down and crunched the numbers, damaged gained through MC was far greater than my DPS lost for being 3% under hit cap for every single fight.

Having SB miss does suck. But you have to realize that over the course of a 4min fight standstill fight (aka. Patchwerks), 3% miss rate is about 1.5 misses.
I arrived at the same conclusion you did in the course of SimCrafting the variations in the builds, but don't forget that Immolate is a Destruction spell, so it has the same likelyhood of missing as a Shadow Bolt. In spite of this, it is likely that Molten Core is worth more than Cataclysm. In my simulations one point in Molten Core gives over 50% Molten Core uptime in a Haunt/Ruin build. Two points was optimal but I'm still experimenting with some variations.

Originally Posted by Zeln View Post
I'm pretty sure the only reason you're on this planet is the phone rang and startled your dad.

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Old 12/18/08, 5:40 PM   #173
rutiene
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Warlock
 
Deathwing
I did include Immolate in my calculations, but missing SB has more of an effect than missing Immolate since you're losing 1.5s of filler (or SB) time, vs. an entire SB. I definitely saw a very high MC uptime with 2/3 MC.

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Old 12/18/08, 5:46 PM   #174
 KingSpeedy
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Fyrgoth
Gnome Warlock
 
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Here's the way I look at it:

Immolate makes up 10-11% of my damage. Even assuming 100% uptime, Molten Core represents a 1-1.1% overall DPS increase.

Dropping 3% hit via Cataclysm means that 1/33 Destruction casts will miss. That includes Shadow Bolt and Immolate. Shadow Bolt typically counts for 35% of my total damage done, so we can knock off about the same 1%+ DPS. Immolate is a bit tricker. It's likely that if it misses, you won't immediately recast it because you'll already be queuing something else. You'll likely lose just a tick or two per miss.

The problem is that as soon as you drop below the hitcap, you're rolling the dice. Yeah, you might not miss at all over the course of a fight, but you might miss 5% of the time, or possibly more. It's not a good move to purposefully be under the hitcap and throw caution to the wind.

Regardless, I think 13% (or 14% for you unlucky Horde) should be the starndard. Relying on +hit talents, particularly the ones for Destruction only pulls points from other talents that would stand to make a larger DPS gain.

[10:59:51] <Florrie> you can be my Dick

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Old 12/18/08, 5:52 PM   #175
rutiene
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Warlock
 
Deathwing
What kind of rotation are you doing that SB is 36% of your damage? On Patchwerks (the most SB friendly fight) it's only around 25% of mine.

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Old 12/18/08, 6:17 PM   #176
 KingSpeedy
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Fyrgoth
Gnome Warlock
 
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Nothing special, Keep everything up, spam SB, don't cut off any casts, don't wait to cast anything, and mix in DS with an SCT Event for when it ticks. Simcraft parses for my gear and spec typically back my numbers up pretty accurately.

There's simply no reason to not hitcap yourself. The crowded length of DoT durations and the Haunt cooldown make things tricky enough without the money wrench of a failed cast thrown in there too. Let's say you cast UA and Immo back to back, and an Immolate misses. You immediately recast. Now you've got 1.5sec of dead space sitting between your UA and Immo. So you end up either clipping Immo to cast it earlier (which might not even work according to the Bug Thread), or you let UA fall off and wait for Immo to come back around again. And if it happens sub-25% when you're trying to mix DS in as well, it will only complicate things further. Consider too fights like Sarth+Drakes where precise movement is essential or squeezing in one more cast in that spark patch before the Malygos Vortex. Patchwerk is fun to measure on, but it's more a test-track for the real-world roads that are the other encounters.

[10:59:51] <Florrie> you can be my Dick

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Old 12/18/08, 6:23 PM   #177
Melbuframa
Don Flamenco
 
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Gnome Warlock
 
Ner'zhul
Originally Posted by rutiene View Post
What kind of rotation are you doing that SB is 36% of your damage? On Patchwerks (the most SB friendly fight) it's only around 25% of mine.
I use SB>Haunt>UA>Immo>Corr>CoA>SL, last Patch SB was 30% of my DPS on a 3 min fight where I did ~5600 DPS.

I assume the +/- 5% has a lot to do with RNG on Nightfall/Glyph Procs as well as fight length.

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Old 12/18/08, 7:12 PM   #178
rutiene
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Warlock
 
Deathwing
Short fights tend to favor SB since the long ramp up time of DoTs gets neutralized by their high DPCT over time.

And honestly, I'm ok with a little more complexity if it means increasing my DPS. That doesn't mean I'm not choosing hit gear so I can drop 3 points from Suppression, but only that while I'm stacking hit to hitcap my DoTs, I'm not going to talent into Cataclysm when those points would be spent better elsewhere.

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Old 12/19/08, 12:26 AM   #179
Damphair
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Warlock
 
Uldaman
Originally Posted by mocnor View Post
I have a level 80 warlock that is imo decently geared and from what i have read should be putting out more damage in raids. Here is a link to my armory The World of Warcraft Armory
I am raiding as affliction (55/0/16) with the Curse of Agony, SL, and Corruption glyphs on. My cast sequence is Haunt>Curse of Agony>Corruption>UA>Immo>SL sb spam and keeping haunt and dots up at all times trying not to clip themm except for maybe SL, and then using DS at 25% or lower instead of SB. I am getting around 3k dps on boss fights and wonder if there is anything i can do better.I also use the fel puppy and put him on defensive. I also only life tap when moving or completely oom or close to it. I raid with a warlock that is 0/30/41 imp spec(immo>incin spammer) i suppose and he is doing more dps. Is that spec one of the better ones because i haven't seen many people talk about it?
I am still learning, too, but several people prefer to open with Sbolt -> haunt to get 2 stacks of Demonic Embrace up before the first true DoT. I read someone posting (sorry forgot his name) that UA doesn't tick immediately, so he opens Sbolt -> UA -> Haunt so that Haunt lands when the UA starts to tick.

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Old 12/19/08, 1:47 AM   #180
Cigaras
Von Kaiser
 
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Undead Warlock
 
Skullcrusher (EU)
ehm, more on Cataclysm vs Molten Core - I will never go bellow hit cap and I will never miss a Shadow Bolt, the problem is that increasing hit rating by gear I loose some spell power, to be more precise 1 point in Molten Core costs me 30,875 spell power, that is about 35dps, on my last patchwerk fight my Immolate done about 358dps (86000 dmg over 4min), if I would have 75% Molten Core up time (I guess that would be putting 3points there), that would be (86000 + 86000 * 0,1 * 0,75) = 92450 dmg over 4min = 385dps, thats 27dps more compared to 3*35 = 105 if I would have 3/3 Cataclysm over Molten Core. Even if Molten Core would stay there 100% of time, that would be 395dps, so the conclusion would be that 1/3 Cataclysm is worth more than 3/3 Molten Core for an affliction warlock or am I wrong?

P.S. lets do some more maths: to Molten Core become more viable than Cataclysm we need it to increase dps by 105, so that would need Immo to do over 1050dps, that would be 63000 per minute or 15750 per cast? That is 3 times greater than mentioned in the first post.

Update: I'm considering taking Improved Imp or Demonic Power (or maybe both) over Cataclysm etc., because my Imp does about 350dps and Improved Imp would boost that by 30% ant that is exactly 105 but it will increase with gear (I'm still wearing t5 shoulders ) and With Demonic Power per 10sec instead of 4 firebolts he would shoot 5 of them, average hit 875, so 875*4/10 = 350 vs 875*5/10= 437,5, that is 87,5 dps for two talent points vs 70 if putting two points in Cataclysm, However in some fights like Saphiron imp wont be able to dps and that will be the loss of almost 300 dps, mhm, I think I can live with that, int he worst case I still have my t5 2set bonus

Last edited by Cigaras : 12/19/08 at 3:11 AM.

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