Dots and you: The Affliction Warlock Thread - Page 20

Ygidorp · 01/06/09, 10:17 PM

If usefulness of nightfall + corr properties are calculated as the time you get for extra dpsing in filler time you can calculate it by seeing how much extra filling time each haste gives you and see how much dps that corresponds to. I remember you mentioning something about 2200 dps in filler time (which is pretty bad geared though), if you have 7,1% haste it means cutting of 0,1 sec of GCD, thus giving you 0,1 sec of filler time when it procs, i.e., 220dps. This should be divided by the amount of filler time where an instant sb is up, since it only during this time you gain the extra dps. Lets say 8% chance on ticks to gain the buff, thats every 12,5 ticks we get a proc, meaning every 37,5 secs, lets say every 38th second as we used 8% even though it's a bit lower. We divide the 220 dps with 38 which is 5,7 dps increase. We used 233 haste to get this, thus each haste gives 0,024 extra dps. This scales with better gear though, higher filler dps will create a higher value of each spell haste. It's not a big change, but everything matters when typing in those values in lootrank

For me personally, I am on approximately 10+dps increase from haste on this factor.

EDIT: A damn sry, thought your question was for me, I just read about the 4 lines in the post before me now, leaving this here though as it might be useful.

Namnalia · 01/07/09, 8:32 AM

Hi there,

first, thanks for the feedback! Changed some of the minor errors already.

Originally Posted by Melbuframa

Because this is the first time I’ve looked at the gear listing on the first post, Can you explain how you came up with those rankings as some of them don’t make any sense. It looks like you are massively overvaluing Spirit and Hit.

I added a short example calculation. I think Hit is not overvalued, it just is that important, and that is not surprising at all. Being hitcapped has been very important to any caster from the very beginning of raiding.
Spirit gives a lot of spell power (10 Spirit + Blessing of Kings -> 3.3 spell power) and slightly improves mana regeneration (life tap), as spell power is very good for our dps, the importance of spirit is not surprising at all.

Changed the part about CoA vs. CoD. There are still people out there asking why CoA should be better as it is lower dpsc, I hope the new version clarifies it a bit more. The short version is: CoA is way better as it is higher DPS, not DPSC, and the casting time you could save when using CoD cannot compensate that, not even when using drain soul.
Of course the picture would change a bit when CoD would profit from Shadow embrace, haunt and other stuff, but so far, it doesn't.

Why is crit so bad?
Many posts about crit being underestimated. The point is: Crit is a bad stat pointwise. the reason for this is: 1% crit gives less damage increase than 1% hit, even on a double-damage-critting shadow bolt. The difference is not that big, however. But there are two more effects: To get 1% crit, you need significantly more crit RATING than you would need hit RATING for 1% more hit. Secondly, there are the non-critting spells. This makes crit look bad overall. I don't think this situation will change for affliction warlocks any time soon.

Eradication calculation:
Thanks for the interesting post - the main problem is that there are some more like that flying around in the internet, each giving slightly different values (including my own). I'll have another look into it :-)

ISB calculation:
The standard calculation does not hold as it is only true for a pure shadow bolt spam, and those times are gone forever. I'll figure something out for this.

Originally Posted by Kalle

I think there are some errors/problems in "The math part" in the second post. I noticed the following (my testing was done on 3.0.8 PTR, if there are any differences to live):

Contagion is missing in the calculation of CoA's damage
The spell power coefficient of UA was reduced to 1.0 when its duration was changed to 15s
The base damage of immolate's DoT component is 785 according to Wowhead, not 765
Haunt crits for 1.5x of the non-crit damage, so the average damage is only (1 + 0.5*crit) times the non-crit damage
You neglect the effect of a missed haunt on the uptime of the debuff, if you assume that you wait 10s before recasting even in the case of a miss you could just replace the 1.2 with (1 + 0.2*hit).
Death's embrace and drain soul's execute are additive. The damage below 25% HP is almost exactly 4.12 times the damage above 35%
The last time I checked (3.0.3 PTR I believe), destruction crits were 2.09 times the non-crit damage with chaotic skyfire diamond (and 1.545 times without ruin), are you sure that this has changed? If this is still the case, the CSD should be comparable or even better than the 25 spell power metagems.
Doing avg_dmg = damage*hit is very poor for DoTs. This would mean that you don't recast after the miss. If you do, you would have to consider multiple effects: A decreased uptime of the DoT (you need at least one gcd before you can recast), less time available to cast the filler spell (because having to cast more than once) [and increased mana usage].
It seems that the damage of drain life/soul is increased by shadow embrace (but not by haunt)
Immolate's direct damage portion is also increased by shadow embrace and haunt

Thanks for this one. Guess I won't change a lot before 3.08, but this will be where I start :-)

cryp71c · 01/07/09, 5:38 PM

Equipment Question for you guys:

[Overlook Handguards]

VS

[Heroes' Plagueheart Gloves]

The overlook handgaurds (after you socket the Plagueheart gloves) have less SP, but have spirit (which adds another +22 SP w/ Fel Armor)...and as an affliction lock Crit isn't as huge on me, but the haste from plagueheart is nice too.

What do you guys think?

Oth · 01/07/09, 6:08 PM

Originally Posted by cryp71c

Equipment Question for you guys:

[Overlook Handguards]

VS

[Heroes' Plagueheart Gloves]

The overlook handgaurds (after you socket the Plagueheart gloves) have less SP, but have spirit (which adds another +22 SP w/ Fel Armor)...and as an affliction lock Crit isn't as huge on me, but the haste from plagueheart is nice too.

What do you guys think?

Handguards are 77 + 19.8 (25.74 talented), so 96.8 to 102.74 damage.
HPG are 78 damage (with RSR) + 38 crit + 48 haste.

So is 38 crit and 48 haste worth one RSR worth of damage? To me, the answer is 'probably', and definitely if the gloves will get you to 4-piece. The haste is always useful, and having *some* crit (for Pandemic procs) is still useful.

cryp71c · 01/07/09, 7:10 PM

ATM I'm no close to the 4-piece bonus, but the haste would be nice, thanks.

Oth · 01/07/09, 8:05 PM

Originally Posted by cryp71c

ATM I'm no close to the 4-piece bonus, but the haste would be nice, thanks.

If you can't get either, by the way, consider:

[Gloves of Glistening Runes]

from Keri in heroic Nexus. If socketed, it provides 40 crit and 87 + 13.2 - 17.2ish damage, which is plainly better if you don't have access to raid gear.

[Moonshroud Gloves] are almost exactly equivalent to Overlook Handguards if you're allergic to DTK, too.

pittgilman · 01/07/09, 9:02 PM

I have been trying to follow this thread as best I can and i have taken a ton of useful knowledge from it. I would love to see all of the key points put together somehow/where. I wish I had the time to do it myself. For example how about a breakdown of: The hitcap
Best pet use
Best rotation
Haste/Crit and why?

Out of all of this I am most curious still as to what the best pet is...I have tried felhunter/imp/infernal at 1min...I havn't tried doomguard yet cause I think the idea of summoning a DG every fight is just silly. Thanks guys for anything at all on this.

cryp71c · 01/08/09, 1:59 AM

Originally Posted by pittgilman

I have been trying to follow this thread as best I can and i have taken a ton of useful knowledge from it. I would love to see all of the key points put together somehow/where. I wish I had the time to do it myself. For example how about a breakdown of: The hitcap
Best pet use
Best rotation
Haste/Crit and why?

Out of all of this I am most curious still as to what the best pet is...I have tried felhunter/imp/infernal at 1min...I havn't tried doomguard yet cause I think the idea of summoning a DG every fight is just silly. Thanks guys for anything at all on this.

Hitcap is 446 points (without any talenting)

You gain 1% of hit from 26.23199272 hit rating.

Felpuppy is the default pet for an affliction warlock because the extra spirit you get turns into a little SP. If you have a mage to buff you, you're better off using an imp, both because the felpuppy buff is less effective (because it doesn't stack) and because the imp adds to your DPS.

The 'Best rotation' is often debated, but the general consensus is:

SB (If you can pre-cast) -> Haunt -> UA -> Imm -> CoA -> Corr -> SL -> SB (refresh haunt and SB fillers, refreshing dots as they expire)

When the target is <30%, SL and Siphon Soul become a more viable DPS option than SB.

Hrath · 01/08/09, 3:03 AM

Is it confirmed that Glyph of CoA is worth 41.27 dps? The last I had heard it was a next-to-nothing dps increase and the best glyphs for Affliction were Corr-SL-Immolate. But if CoA is worth 41.27 dps, that makes it much, much better than Corr.

Damphair · 01/08/09, 3:33 AM

Originally Posted by Blacksen

Dark pact really is terrible. With the changes to spirit, lifetap will give you mana back faster.

No argument that Dark Pact is worse than Life Tap when it comes to giving mana. However, Life Tap is not always viable in fights. For instance, in Sapphiron fights where the healers are already taxed, Life Tap is not a great idea, imo. Having Dark Pact handy gives some versatility in some fights.

Damphair · 01/08/09, 3:42 AM

Originally Posted by Naforce

The only experience I have from lvl 80 affliction raiding was that it didn't work. The lag wouldn't allow me to keep my rotation going at all, meaning I got relatively low DPS compared to what I should be getting. I should gear-wise get almost 5k i guess on patchwerk, though i didn't get even close to that. Anybody got afflispecc to work in laggy conditions?

Don't know how your situation is in specific, but thinking about it, I wonder if any other lock spec will be more forgiving? At least with Affliction, your DoTs are still ticking even if you cannot get optimal rotation. In the other specs, if you lag badly, you have complete dead space for damage dealing, it will seem.

bambatsa · 01/08/09, 4:17 AM

Did some searching on this thread and couldn't find an answer to my question so here goes.
Has anyone done the math behind the tier7 four set bonus?Does the spell power boost (via fel armor) of the bonus makes life tap better to cast as an extra filler (so a typical "rotation" would be keep dots/haunt up - life tap - filler spell)?
Or even maybe consider life tap as an extra dot(only regarding the casting time which is instant) fitting inside the dot rotation?

Nnayr · 01/08/09, 4:29 AM

Originally Posted by Damphair

No argument that Dark Pact is worse than Life Tap when it comes to giving mana. However, Life Tap is not always viable in fights. For instance, in Sapphiron fights where the healers are already taxed, Life Tap is not a great idea, imo. Having Dark Pact handy gives some versatility in some fights.

If your healers are having trouble there, find new healers. The only fight where dp is better than lifetap is probably Loatheb, other than that you should be able to lifetap whenever. Darkpact IS a wasted talent point.

Issa · 01/08/09, 5:15 AM

Originally Posted by bambatsa

Did some searching on this thread and couldn't find an answer to my question so here goes.
Has anyone done the math behind the tier7 four set bonus?Does the spell power boost (via fel armor) of the bonus makes life tap better to cast as an extra filler (so a typical "rotation" would be keep dots/haunt up - life tap - filler spell)?
Or even maybe consider life tap as an extra dot(only regarding the casting time which is instant) fitting inside the dot rotation?

Haven't done calculations on it yet, but I suggest that if you use it in a standard rotation, you pop it just before you refresh your dots. They will benefit more from it than your sb will.

krilz · 01/08/09, 5:26 AM

Originally Posted by bambatsa

Did some searching on this thread and couldn't find an answer to my question so here goes.
Has anyone done the math behind the tier7 four set bonus?Does the spell power boost (via fel armor) of the bonus makes life tap better to cast as an extra filler (so a typical "rotation" would be keep dots/haunt up - life tap - filler spell)?
Or even maybe consider life tap as an extra dot(only regarding the casting time which is instant) fitting inside the dot rotation?

The problem is fitting it into your rotation. I have somewhat solved the problem (at least for me). I use an addon called ScrollingCombatText and whenever I hit 30-40% mana it says "Low mana!" and makes a sound which is a queue for me to Life Tap. And if I cast spells all the time and refresh DOTs and whatnot it will come almost every 10 seconds which makes it real solid.