I don't get the trouble you put yourself in for the first application of corruption. Why do u bother to have isb up before first application of corruption if you are going to recast it when 4t10 buff proc. You can just start fight by casting corruption first, to allow it more ticks and recast it as soon as u get 4t10 buff up.
The biggest problem with that is if your going to use NIC you'll have to recast corruption after UA and the popped trinket anyweay.
The best way I think is sb-haunt-ua-corr-coa
I've tried to cast 2 sbs in the beginning to get 3 stacks of shadow embrace, but strange thing it makes less dps, than previous variant.
And I'd like to see clear answer about corruption stats. In some topics there is an information, that spd and haste are refreshing. Is it true or not? I want to be sure in this question, because of getting dfo yesterday. Should I recast corruption in the end of buff or not? Also not sure about recasting corruption after 35%. f.e. on saurfang the fight is between 3 and 4 minutes. usually closer to 3. so if I drink wild magic before the fight and use nic, I would have no possibility to use it again on 35%. Do 12% cost loss of 20% corr crit or not? thx
I have tried numerous ways in fights and so far the one i have seen to have max dps with is pre-pot speed cast SB haunt ua coa and corruption. then wait for t10 to proc, use NMIC and then recast corruption. using the speed pot gets corruption rolling with very fast dots and you get lots of SB fillers because of the cast time being low. Like 1.4 sec or so for me. and once t10 is up then with NMIC you get the major crit buff. so it gets high initial damage plus high rolling damage from crits later in the fight. I only use NMIC on fights where i know corruption will be up the entire time without any problem. otherwise i switch it out with RotD or spyglass. below 35% i recast corruption with w/ Wild Magic and t10 proc and NMIC
Also curious of the same, is anyone noticing a DPS loss if NMIC is still on CD during 35% DE phase after reapplying corruption. From what I gather I should pre-pull pop wild magic, await T10 4PC, activate NIC with wild magic pot re-applying corruption--then finally reapply once more at 35% even if NIC is not available. Thanks!
Also curious of the same, is anyone noticing a DPS loss if NMIC is still on CD during 35% DE phase after reapplying corruption. From what I gather I should pre-pull pop wild magic, await T10 4PC, activate NIC with wild magic pot re-applying corruption--then finally reapply once more at 35% even if NIC is not available. Thanks!
I normally pre-pod haste to get everything going quickly. The problem with what you have stated above is that you have a 1 min cooldown between your first and second pot. So you pre-pot then after the 1 minute cooldown then you can wait for t10 proc, pot Wild Magic and activate NMIC. That is a major damage loss if your waiting for the cooldown on Wild Magic to pop NMIC.
This is the reason that I said to pre-pot haste to get everything going quickly then once T10 4pc Proc pop NMIC but do not use a pot. Save the 2nd potion for the 35% re-apply.
Also curious of the same, is anyone noticing a DPS loss if NMIC is still on CD during 35% DE phase after reapplying corruption. From what I gather I should pre-pull pop wild magic, await T10 4PC, activate NIC with wild magic pot re-applying corruption--then finally reapply once more at 35% even if NIC is not available. Thanks!
Short answer is its a DPS loss to reapply corruption without NMIC sub 35%
Long answer is it depends on your corruptions crit. The sweet spot where Death's Embrace beats out NMIC is if your corruption crit without NMIC is above 66.67%.
X is value of base damage of your corrutpion
Y is crit percent
[DE] 1.12 * (2XY + (1-Y)X) = 2X (Y+0.2) + X (0.8-Y) [NMIC]
1.12X (2Y + 1 - Y) = X (2Y+0.4 + 0.8 - Y)
1.12X (Y + 1) = X (Y + 1.2)
1.12 Y+1.12 = Y+ 1.2
0.12 Y = 0.08
Y = .66667
Given that you will probably not see 66.67% crit for your corruption without NMIC up, you shouldn't reapply corruption without NMIC. Oh and I might add if you are going to do Wild Magic potting above 35% that would guarantee you shouldn't reapply sub 35% without NMIC.
As for when to use Wild Magic and whether to pre-pot wait a minute and reapply above or just WM sub 35% . That cannot be answered mathematically in any meaningful way without knowing
1) fight length
2) number of corruption ticks pre and post 35%
3) number of corruption ticks before t10 procs pre and post 35%
Since #3 is random, fight length is determined by factors not in your control, and #2 is also random given erradication you are stuck with going with what "feels" right based on your previous goes on whatever boss.
edit: I might add that some fights like putricide where it is probably a DPS loss to Wild magic sub 35% (rather than p2 80-35%), its probably beneficial to do so given the importance of getting him down quickly at that point. So its not always about what makes my recount look the best.
Also curious of the same, is anyone noticing a DPS loss if NMIC is still on CD during 35% DE phase after reapplying corruption.
This seems to be a simple problem of figuring out if your Corruption ticks hit harder with the +crit bonus from Nevermelting Ice Crystal (NMIC) or with +10% damage from Death’s Embrace (DE). In order to determine how much each tick from Corr will hit for under these two circumstances we must consider the following (mostly pulled from the OP with a few additions/changes):
Without plotting these formulas (something I’ll probably never get around to doing) I would guess that there’s a cut off point in which one of the methods is better than the other if your sp is less/greater than X while your crit is less/greater than Y. I’m not going to go into those details, so just use the formulas provided & you can figure it out for yourself based on your own stats. I’ll use 4500sp & 30% crit as an example:
With NMIC, but without DE:
4*(1080+(1.86*4500))*(1+(1.09*(0.30+0.33)))= ~25957 or 4326/tick
With DE, but without NMIC:
4.168*(1080+(1.86*4500))*(1+(1.09*(0.30+0.13)))= ~18461 or 3077/tick
In this example you can see that it is clearly better to continue rolling NMIC below 35% (if it is still on cooldown), rather than recasting Corr for the DE buff. Obviously your spellpower values will fluctuate throughout a fight due to various procs, Demonic Pact (if available), etc, but this should give you a rough estimate of how much of a DPS gain it is to continue rolling NMIC or not.
Edit:
It looks like Burberri beat me to the punch a bit. Buffed, your crit chance needs to be >66.67% without NMIC before reapplying Corr with DE becomes viable.
I normally pre-pod haste to get everything going quickly. The problem with what you have stated above is that you have a 1 min cooldown between your first and second pot. So you pre-pot then after the 1 minute cooldown then you can wait for t10 proc, pot Wild Magic and activate NMIC. That is a major damage loss if your waiting for the cooldown on Wild Magic to pop NMIC.
This is the reason that I said to pre-pot haste to get everything going quickly then once T10 4pc Proc pop NMIC but do not use a pot. Save the 2nd potion for the 35% re-apply.
would reapplying corruption at 35% with WM + t10 be a dps loss compared to the NMIC+t10?
The 1.03 is supposed to be the meta gem effect, correct?
if so, the multiplier has to be 1.09, not 1.03 already calculated that several times.
all my calculations indicate, that the formula to calculate Spell Critical Strike damage with the metagem is this:
The Base Multiplier is 1.5 for spells (50% more damage), this is multiplied by the meta gem: BaseCrit Multiplier = 1.5 * 1.03 = 1.545
Talents are calculated after this effect, but they only affect the the bonus damage, not the whole multiplier. So for Pandemic it is: Total Bonus Damage = 0.545 * (1 + Pandemic) = 1.09
So, to easily calculate the total damage added by your Critical Strike Chance you have to multiply your Critical Strike Chance by 1.09.
As an example:
Your Corruption hits for 3000 Damage and crits for 6270, your Critical Strike Chance is 40%: Average Damage = 3000 * (0.4 * 1.09 + 1) = 4308
To be sure its correct you can simply calculate: (3000 * 60 + 6270 * 40) / 100 = 4308
I know it was correct when WotLK shipped, but they changed the Spellstone to be additive to Shadow Mastery sometimes later.
Thanks for the info, I hadn't realized that this change had happened.
The 1.03 is supposed to be the meta gem effect, correct?
if so, the multiplier has to be 1.09, not 1.03 already calculated that several times.
all my calculations indicate, that the formula to calculate Spell Critical Strike damage with the metagem is this:
The Base Multiplier is 1.5 for spells (50% more damage), this is multiplied by the meta gem:
BaseCrit Multiplier = 1.5 * 1.03 = 1.545
Talents are calculated after this effect, but they only affect the the bonus damage, not the whole multiplier. So for Pandemic it is:
Total Bonus Damage = 0.545 * (1 + Pandemic) = 1.09
So, to easily calculate the total damage added by your Critical Strike Chance you have to multiply your Critical Strike Chance by 1.09.
As an example:
Your Corruption hits for 3000 Damage and crits for 6270, your Critical Strike Chance is 40%:
Average Damage = 3000 * (0.4 * 1.09 + 1) = 4308
To be sure its correct you can simply calculate:
(3000 * 60 + 6270 * 40) / 100 = 4308
Yea, you're right. I forgot to calculate the crit modifier & instead just tossed in the value for the meta gem. However, I'm not so sure that it's 1.09 either.
The meta gem boosts total damage by 3% on a crit, which changes crit damage from 150% to (150% * 103%) = 154.5%, which makes the crit bonus +54.5%. This 54.5% number is what talents (Pandemic & Ruin) effect, giving you a crit bonus of +109%, for a total crit damage 209%, as you demonstrated above.
However, while I could be completely wrong, I don't think Corr works in this way. Note that Pandemic "grants the periodic damage from your Corruption and Unstable Affliction spells the ability to critically hit for 100% increased damage". In other words, your Corr can only ever hit for 100% or 200% damage, but never for 150% damage because without the talent Corr is incapable of critically striking. If this works like how it sounds, the Base Multiplier would be 2.0 & not 1.5. Also, bonus damage from the talent would not be considered, since none is granted (only Haunt is effected by this). This would result in a total crit modifier of 1.06 instead of 1.09 for Corr: (2.0 * 1.03 -1) = 1.06. Granted I have absolutely no idea if 1.06 is correct (as I stated above, I could be completely wrong), but it seems probable (or at least possible) based on how the tooltip reads.
I'm going to edit the formula in my original post to reflect the changes discussed here, but because I'm only speculating on the 1.06 crit modifier, I'm going to go ahead & use 1.09 for now unless someone else can verify the 1.06. Thanks again Flyfunner for catching my mistakes.
However, while I could be completely wrong, I don't think Corr works in this way. Note that Pandemic "grants the periodic damage from your Corruption and Unstable Affliction spells the ability to critically hit for 100% increased damage". In other words, your Corr can only ever hit for 100% or 200% damage, but never for 150% damage because without the talent Corr is incapable of critically striking. If this works like how it sounds, the Base Multiplier would be 2.0 & not 1.5. Also, bonus damage from the talent would not be considered, since none is granted (only Haunt is effected by this). This would result in a total crit modifier of 1.06 instead of 1.09 for Corr: (2.0 * 1.03 -1) = 1.06. Granted I have absolutely no idea if 1.06 is correct (as I stated above, I could be completely wrong), but it seems probable (or at least possible) based on how the tooltip reads.
Yeah the tooltip easily makes you think that, but the talent actually gives your corruption the ability to crit at all, as well as boosting your critical damage bonus by 100% (just like 5/5 Ruin). But Corruption is a spell, and all spells, no matter which class, crit for 150% damage (unlike physical hits that always crit for 200% damage). This is supported by the fact that when Pandemic was changed, from the old semi-crits by ticking twice to the real crits, both dots only critted for 150% Damage, the Critical Damage Modifier was applied a little later.
I'm going to edit the formula in my original post to reflect the changes discussed here, but because I'm only speculating on the 1.06 crit modifier, I'm going to go ahead & use 1.09 for now unless someone else can verify the 1.06. Thanks again Flyfunner for catching my mistakes.
I just tested it with my Unstable Affliction and Corruption: My Corruption ticks for 2139 Damage and crits for 4470 (2139 * 2.09 = 4470.51)
My Unstable Affliction ticks for 1436 Damage and crits for 3000 damage (1436 * 2.09 = 3001.24)
And yes, I had different spellpower values on both tests (since the both damage values dont fit together, but in this case it doesnt really matter)
Small Site Note: Even Death Knight's Spells usually crit for 150% damage, they just have a passive ability that again works as a Critical Damage Modifier. So Death Knight's Spells also crit for 209% Damage with the Metagem
I apologize if this has already been addressed but I could not find it if it has. Since feral seems to be more common now for druids, I have a lack of boomkins in my raids. And unholy DKs on my server tend to not exist or cannot sustain the dps needed to raid. So I don't have the 13% spell damage buff coming from anywhere. I have a couple destruction warlocks that I sometimes raid with, but as it is my offspec I don't like to ask them to not cast CoD. So I have been looking at parses and by quick napkin math it seems that 13% damage to my other spells outweighs the damage of CoA significantly. And would free up a lot of cast time. And I believe it counts as an affliction affect for Soul Siphon to still buff my drain soul.
So the question is, when their is no boomkin, is their a reason I should still be doing CoA instead of CoE? I plan on trying it next week, but I was wondering if anyone had feedback before I start experimenting.
So the question is, when their is no boomkin, is their a reason I should still be doing CoA instead of CoE? I plan on trying it next week, but I was wondering if anyone had feedback before I start experimenting.
Curse of Agony deals around 600 DPS, of course you win DPS by setting Curse of Elements because of the 13% Spell Damage, but Destruction Warlocks lose fairly less DPS by using another Curse.
Destruction Warlocks should always be your first choice for casting Curse of Elements, Demon Locks your second. Affliction is ALWAYS your last choice, so ask your Destructions to cast CoE.
Also, Curse of Agony is an affliction effect as well and counts towards the Soul Siphon Effect.
got a quick question about the coming Patch and the more and more falling value of spirit . I do have 591 spirit right now, this grants me a total SP buff via life tap glyph of ~118. Now my question, at what value does the glyph become worthless and what glyph instead of it? today i got a new run at icc10 heroic and some of the items i could use, gets me falling even more in spirit, so my SP gain will drop too.
well, there is no real good glyph in affliction apport of quick decay, LT and haunt.
agony and corruption are the next of the list but afair they are far beyond the other in term of dps.
got a quick question about the coming Patch and the more and more falling value of spirit . I do have 591 spirit right now, this grants me a total SP buff via life tap glyph of ~118. Now my question, at what value does the glyph become worthless and what glyph instead of it? today i got a new run at icc10 heroic and some of the items i could use, gets me falling even more in spirit, so my SP gain will drop too.
The next best Glyph outside of our normal 3 is the Glyph of Curse of Agony, which the OP estimates to be 62.86 DPS at current gear levels.
Glyph of Curse of Agony 30.51 -> 37.04 -> 62.86 dps
There are two more heavy ticks when you use this glyph. The damage amount coming from spell power does NOT change per tick (but of course the DPCT changes). The damage plus from the additional ticks is constant and can be computed like this: base dps unglyphed = 1740/24s = 72.5 dps. base dps glyphed = (1740 + 2x389)/(24+4)s = 89.93 dps. So the glyph gives a constant 17.43 dps increase here. Furthermore, you gain (60/24 - 60/28)s = 0.358s per minute because you have to recast CoA less often. In this time, you can cast your filler spell, giving you another 784.6 / 1176.3 dpm or 13.08 / 19.61 dps.
If we assume this value to be fairly accurate the question becomes: when does Glyph of Life Tap (GoLT) grant less than 62.86 DPS? If 1 point of Spellpower is equal to ~1.77 DPS, then we would need to earn less than (62.86 / 1.77 = 35.51 Spellpower) from GoLT, which is equal to (35.51 / 0.20 = 177.57 Spirit). Also consider that Priests (Divine Spirit, 80), Druids (Gift of the Wild, 51.8 [talented]) and Paladins (Blessing of Kings, 10%) provide +Spirit buffs. Assuming that your raid has all three of these classes (which nearly all do), you would then only need 29.627 Spirit (see below for calculation) to keep GoLT. So, unless you’re (A) going into raids naked or (B) somehow managed to collect a full set of raiding gear with no Spirit pieces, then GoLT is going to be with us for awhile.
well, there is no real good glyph in affliction apport of quick decay, LT and haunt.
agony and corruption are the next of the list but afair they are far beyond the other in term of dps.
Corruption works very well in place of haunt for fights that force mobility. I find the extra nightfall procs to be of great use on Putricide. They allow faster stacking of Shadow Embrace, maintaining corruption on Putricide while DPS'ing adds, and the ability to"GCD step" during phase 3 as you move him around the room.
Based on trying to maximize DPS, I've been utilizing ShadowGreenLight and TinyCasterStats to track my buffs and caster stats to make the most effective decision on when to update Corruption.
Something I have noticed for awhile now is that even though I had recasted corruption at a high SP value (say 6000 SP) and it continues to update, I am able to refresh it w/ a newer Corruption (say 4500 SP) at a much lower SP value as portrayed by ShadowGreenLight.
Why does this happen? Does the corruption SP get changed somehow through refreshes that I'm unaware of. I know that's a tough question if it does b/c it would be really hard to track through target testing based on the nature of how Corruption and the refresh feature works, but something I wanted to address.
From what I initially understood, you shouldn't be able to recast Corruption w/ a Corruption of a lower SP value.
I look forward to responses as this is the last "?" left in the affliction rotation that I have to maximize my personal DPS.
EDIT****
Also, this could potentially strike up a good conversation on ...
1) When is a "large" rolling SP on corruption outweigh added Buffs
2) What buffs are "essential" and what are able to be "overlooked"
These are things that are most likely going to end up subjective, but have been trolling in my head. I'd be more than willing to discuss w/ people on here or somewhere else, but a very effective means to maximize one's DPS.
Last edited by stroupaloop : 04/01/10 at 11:16 AM.
@Stroup:
If you refresh Corruption; Spellpower and Haste are recalculated. Each refresh. i.e: Have 9001 SP, apply Corr. -> Corr with OVER NINETHOUSND SP IS GOING ON WTFBBQ -> Refresh Corr with Haunt, BUT you over-ninethousand Trinket-Buff goes away (so let's say you have 8999 =() ->Corr. ticks are recalculated like a Corr that would have been applied with 8999 SP
Sad story. But you can, and should like in all 31337 posts about this mechanic, use this mechanic to your advantage. DMG Multipliers (T10.4, Tricks, Bloodqueen's Thing, <35%, etc) AND crit (NMIC, etc...) are NOT recalculated. This effects roll all Day long until Corr wears off.
So old news =(
I'm not sure if your post is 100% accurate.
I've been in situations where:
I'll have a rolling Corruption up ... more "buffs" will be available to refresh corruption, so I'll hit Corruption but it will note the message about having a stronger spell already casted. Then, I'll cast a SB, but will still be unable to update my Corruption. What you're saying would mean that after I cast that SB and Corruption "refreshes" w/ your proposed re-calculation, I'd be able to refresh instead of forcing me to cast SoC to remove the Corruption completely.
My best initial guess is it matters which buffs you have, which could potentially impact the ability to refresh. Something that I mentioned in the 1571st post about this that could be of value to help people that track these buffs closely to make the best decisions on when to refresh.
Something I have noticed for awhile now is that even though I had recasted corruption at a high SP value (say 6000 SP) and it continues to update, I am able to refresh it w/ a newer Corruption (say 4500 SP) at a much lower SP value as portrayed by ShadowGreenLight.
Why does this happen? Does the corruption SP get changed somehow through refreshes that I'm unaware of. I know that's a tough question if it does b/c it would be really hard to track through target testing based on the nature of how Corruption and the refresh feature works, but something I wanted to address.
I don't think anyone (outside of Blizz) knows with 100% certainty how this works exactly. Best guesses & tests indicate that it is based on either your total SP when the initial Corr was cast or on your total SP when Corr was last refreshed... or something in between (perhaps your highest SP value on any refresh). In any case, current buffs (or rather lack thereof) are almost certain to play a roll in receiving the "A more powerful spell is already active" error message. Blizz is aware of this problem & has actually made fixes to prevent this error in past patches for other classes. Hopefully one will come soon for warlocks as well.
In the meantime, if you want to avoid seeing this message, the only way with any certainty is to cast a SoC to remove Corr before reapplying.
1) When is a "large" rolling SP on corruption outweigh added Buffs
Since SP doesn't roll on Corr this is a non-issue.
2) What buffs are "essential" and what are able to be "overlooked"
When it comes to rolling Corr, what buffs are "essential"? Any that will boost your damage output of course. If a buff has become available & will boost your Corr's output if you reapply & roll your new buff, then do it. Any that would result in a DPS loss should be "overlooked". For example, if you're rolling Devious Minds & NMIC, but NMIC is still on cooldown when Death's Embrace is up, then Death's Embrace should be overlooked. Which buffs/debuffs should be overlooked may vary from fight-to-fight depending on your situation. Use your ShadowGreenLight mod & a little bit of common sense.
Am I the only one who thinks that recasting corruption for deaths embrace and getting a dps gain out of it requires the luck of the irish?
Devious minds rolls on corruption, thus you will want to max out crit during the first devious minds proc. From this it follows that prepotting doesnt seem to be an option since you would end up without the 5% crit from the potion roughly 72-85% of the time. That however means since you wont have prepotted but waited for the first devious minds procc to use it, that it will be on cd when getting into death's embrace range. So recasting corruption below 35% you will definititely loose these 5% crit. Of course 12% damage increase > 5% more crit, but I am only getting started:
Devious minds still rolls on corruption, meaning you cant recast corruption at 35% but have to wait for the first procc after. This reduces the gain further since you will only profit from the 12% extra damage for roughly 0.35*(fight time) - average devious minds procc time.
Furthermore you have to factor in the cast time wasted to recast corruption, which could otherwise be spend casting other spells. This is roughly 3 seconds, since you have to cast SoC first in order to be sure to avoid the "stronger spell on target" problem.
But most importantly: TotT rolls on corruption. Recasting it during deaths embrace means that you have to be in 20 yard range of your favorite rogue and that it has to be off cd when devious minds proccs. Roughly 66-75% of the time this will not be the case.
If you do the very rough approximation of treating 1% crit = 1% damage increase, assume that everything works perfectly and only consider the first and last point your expectation value will already be (12%-5%)*(0.33)+(12%-5%-15%)*0.66=-2.97%, i.e. on average you would do 3% less damage during the last 35% of boss health if you recast corruption.
Everything here was of course done under the assumption that NMIC is off cd again when you hit deaths embrace range.
After numerous time spent reading up on the rotation when you have NMIC+ 4pct10 I am more confused than ever. It seems that most people pre pot wild magic continue with their normal start rotation and priorities and then reapply corruption with seed once they get the 4pct10 proc along with a potion of wild magic. Is it not better to pre pot use NMIC immediately (without the 4pct10 ) then reapply corruption again with NMIC and no potion at 35% because you receive the talent damage bonus?
Generally speaking it is a fools errand to pre-pot WM in hopes of pulling off a 4-pc. You will only succeed 20% of the time. This is because the RNG nature of 4-pc and the fact that you lose a couple seconds of pot to start the fight put you in a situation where you only are going to get 2-3 useful ticks for which to proc the 4-pc.
Depending on the nature of the fight, it is either best to save the pot for 35% or save it for then 4-pc actually does proc.
Generally speaking it is a fools errand to pre-pot WM in hopes of pulling off a 4-pc. You will only succeed 20% of the time. This is because the RNG nature of 4-pc and the fact that you lose a couple seconds of pot to start the fight put you in a situation where you only are going to get 2-3 useful ticks for which to proc the 4-pc.
Depending on the nature of the fight, it is either best to save the pot for 35% or save it for then 4-pc actually does proc.
I agree that it's either good to pop a Wild Magic pot for the t10 4p proc or 35%, but there is no reason not to pre-pot if you make the decision to pop a Wild Magic pot at 35% b/c that's extra damage at the beginning from all your spells, including Corruption, right at the beginning. You shouldn't be concerned about consumables (if that's a concern), otherwise you shouldn't be asking the question of when to pot in the first place.
03/15/10, 2:13 AM
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