Dots and you: The Affliction Warlock Thread - Page 7

reesj · 12/11/08, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by Turbo Moses

Does anyone know why sometimes Drain Soul will just stop channeling randomly sometimes?

this dam thing also happened to me 1st time on 2days raids after all these time. What the hell did they did to the afflition warlocks in that short maintenance ?

Aeetes · 12/11/08, 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by reesj

On the topic of affliction thing that I noticed 2day was like in PTR the shadow embrace buff gets canceled of if there are 2 warlocks in the raid. I did raid with the other affliction lock few times and as I can remember always saw the debuff on my dot timer. But 2day I specifically tested this with him and only one of us was able to have the shadow embrace debuff. Did this happen after yesterday patch ? or Did I miss something ?

Shadows embrace stacks universally for locks spec'd for it. His shadow's embrace works for your dots and vice versa. So, no matter how many aff locks are in a raid, only one shadow's embrace debuff will show up on the boss.

Aeetes · 12/11/08, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by dragon12

You're doing it wrong. There should be no "stacking up on blah blah" to particular points, unless you have a fetish for hit and you want it maxed. After you cap hit then you just figure out which pieces of gear are better for you using relative weights for each stat. I posted a reply to the crit-is-great-because-of-pandemic fallacy here, so I may as well just link it than spout the same thing again.

What exactly am I "doing wrong"? I dont take items with just one stat on them and stack it, I'm fairly balanced between haste and crit atm, I was simply wondering if it comes down to a direct trade, would one be better than the other? Also, I don't think being hit capped as an afflock is only to be prioritized if you have a "fetish for hit". Affliction is dependent on having as few misses/resists as possible, to ensure maximum dot uptime without clipping. Therefore, hit becomes absolutely essential, and should be capped first and foremost above all other stats. Thank you for you're answer, I have confirmed that haste probably beats out crit in direct comparison, provided enough crit is already present.

• KingSpeedy · 12/11/08, 1:33 AM

Originally Posted by Aeetes

Shadows embrace stacks universally for locks spec'd for it. His shadow's embrace works for your dots and vice versa. So, no matter how many aff locks are in a raid, only one shadow's embrace debuff will show up on the boss.

This is incorrect. Shadow Embrace can only be applied once, and will only benefit the warlock that applies it first. Other warlocks with the talent will refresh the debuff, but it will only buff the original warlock that applies it. I've tested this as thoroughly as I can think possible with another warlock and a target dummy.

This is a known and GC-acknowledged issue which likely stems from the Mortal Strike aspect of the debuff stacking and having unintended pvp side-effects.

• dragon12 · 12/11/08, 3:49 AM

Originally Posted by Aeetes

What exactly am I "doing wrong"? I dont take items with just one stat on them and stack it, I'm fairly balanced between haste and crit atm, I was simply wondering if it comes down to a direct trade, would one be better than the other? Also, I don't think being hit capped as an afflock is only to be prioritized if you have a "fetish for hit". Affliction is dependent on having as few misses/resists as possible, to ensure maximum dot uptime without clipping. Therefore, hit becomes absolutely essential, and should be capped first and foremost above all other stats. Thank you for you're answer, I have confirmed that haste probably beats out crit in direct comparison, provided enough crit is already present.

What you are "doing wrong" is assuming that you want certain amounts of one stat before getting another/before another one is useful, for example things like "provided enough crit is already present" - haste would be better than crit even if you had zero crit and were under 50% haste. Edit: one stat depending on another for usefulness does apply sometimes, but not for the crit/haste relationship. And regardless, there is never a situation where you can say "my optimal crit is X% before getting other stats" or anything like that.

Also, as is mentioned in a number of other places in this forum, hit being "absolutely essential" for affliction warlocks is very much debatable. In all my sims, and analysis of my own WWS, +hit is maybe slightly better than +damage up to the hit cap for an Affliction warlock. Not "first and foremost above all other stats", just barely in front. I'm still going to cap it because I don't like getting resists in my rotations, but it's not the crazy dps gain it was in early TBC.

Namnalia · 12/11/08, 4:24 AM

Originally Posted by fip

I must have missed something in the past few months by why are you multiplying everything by .85 "boss level". Since when did a boss being higher level reduce your damage by that much?

On Corruption you have the following:
+0.30 (Everlasting Affliction)

Pretty sure it's 5% just like the talent reads.

I) Bosses are considered 3 levels higher than you are, giving them a 15% chance to resist spells. There is NO way to prevent that. As these are partial resists, you don't get a "resisted" but just do 15% less damage in the average. This has been fact for a very long time, and you can easily see it when approaching the boss training dummy, you will get "Xyz does n damage (k resisted)" all the time.

II) This has been a lenghty discussion in this thread, and I now agree that "fallenmen" is absolutely right about it. Everlasting affliction does improve your spell damage by 5% PER TICK. Tested, discussed, topic closed. I actually wrote it in the spell description, and you can find it in this thread. Maybe you should read a little bit more before you post, then you would get less warnings :-)

Namnalia · 12/11/08, 4:26 AM

Originally Posted by fip

Here, I'll do some math for you:
Because 10 is a stupid number to use, I changed them all to 1:
1 spell power = 1.036 dps
1 hit rating = 1.129 dps
1 haste rating = .392 dps
1 crit rating = .379 dps
1 spirit = .311 dps
1 int = .104 dps

1 spirit * 1.1 (BoK) * .3 (Fel Armor) * 1.036 (your value for spellpower dps) = 0.34188 dps per spirit, compared to your value of .311.

Also, nobody has responded to my concern: what the heck is this ".85" "Boss Level Target" coefficient you're using. Last I checked a boss' level does not cut my damage by 15% magically.

This is actually true (and it changes the value for intellect as well). I'll change that soon.

• dragon12 · 12/11/08, 4:38 AM

Originally Posted by Namnalia

I) Bosses are considered 3 levels higher than you are, giving them a 15% chance to resist spells. There is NO way to prevent that. As these are partial resists, you don't get a "resisted" but just do 15% less damage in the average. This has been fact for a very long time, and you can easily see it when approaching the boss training dummy, you will get "Xyz does n damage (k resisted)" all the time.

My overall % mitigated for boss fights is generally in the 3-6% range. I'm not sure how that translates into 0.85 multiplier.

Eruantien · 12/11/08, 5:29 AM

Originally Posted by Aeetes

Also, I don't think being hit capped as an afflock is only to be prioritized if you have a "fetish for hit". Affliction is dependent on having as few misses/resists as possible, to ensure maximum dot uptime without clipping. Therefore, hit becomes absolutely essential, and should be capped first and foremost above all other stats..

Is that really true? Having to recast a dot is annoying (and a resisted Haunt even more so), but ultimately it's just a loss in dps - the same as will be cause by not having X haste or Y spellpower - not the end of the world.

If anything, because our spells have such a high dpct/aren't spammable, don't we get less out of hit than other casters?

fip · 12/11/08, 6:40 AM

Originally Posted by Namnalia

I) Bosses are considered 3 levels higher than you are, giving them a 15% chance to resist spells. There is NO way to prevent that. As these are partial resists, you don't get a "resisted" but just do 15% less damage in the average. This has been fact for a very long time, and you can easily see it when approaching the boss training dummy, you will get "Xyz does n damage (k resisted)" all the time.

II) This has been a lenghty discussion in this thread, and I now agree that "fallenmen" is absolutely right about it. Everlasting affliction does improve your spell damage by 5% PER TICK. Tested, discussed, topic closed. I actually wrote it in the spell description, and you can find it in this thread. Maybe you should read a little bit more before you post, then you would get less warnings :-)

On #2, Interesting, I do not see it in the Spell Description that you wrote but ok, I'll accept it, and now that I look at the Leulier spreadsheet I can see the 30% in there as well.

On #1:
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
I could link any number of WWS like this and in every one of them you will see a mitigation value under 10% for any single spell. In this case, the mitigation value goes from 3.1-6.2% at worst. Nowhere near 15% which severely cripples your calculation.

Also, Leulier's spreadsheet appears to have made its triumphant return thanks to Bakka. It's not 100% in the area of items available to be slotted yet but the calculations seem as spot-on as ever. Does anyone see anything wrong with the calculations in that spreadsheet? The only thing I've seen wrong currently is that Drain Soul is not being given the bonus from Soul Siphon and it's not being used in a Haunt rotation, but that's easy enough to fix.
Leulier's Warlock DPS Spreadsheet

Something which appears to be a bit misleading for less experienced Warlocks reading this thread might be one of the most important conclusions of your thread: dps value per stat point. Your DPS per Point values are based on pre-Naxx gear. However, as someone gears up through Naxx, those values will very rapidly change. Using best-in-slot items it is quite easy to reach 2,100+ unbuffed spellpower from gear which fairly drastically changes the stat weightings. My concern is that someone gearing up through Naxx looking at your guide's stat weights would then get all the gear they intended, thinking it to be best in slot, only to not realize that since all their values were backwards-looking instead of forwards-looking, their items are not actually best in slot. When computing best-in-slot values you really have to look forward to what your spellpower/hit/crit/haste will be, and see what the weights will be at those values before you start picking your gear.

Namnalia · 12/11/08, 8:57 AM

Well, that is kind of strange. Looks like its only about 5% now (or always has been?). Nevertheless, since it is a factor for all spells, it is not really important for the results as a whole (of course it changes the results, but it does not change the ratio between stats, for example). Nevertheless, I will change that - either to 0.95 or by removing it completely.

fip · 12/11/08, 10:59 AM

In general, if something affects everything negatively equally and is random chance such as boss mitigating resists are, it would be best to not compute it at all. The Warlock DPS spreadsheet just ignores them and has been updated to include all worthwhile LK gear. It's only missing a few enchants/gems at this point in time:
Leulier's Warlock DPS Spreadsheet

I personally recommend looking through that to verify your equations. Also, your spec is definitely not what I would call standard for high dps Warlocks. You put a full 3 points into Cataclysm which is decent, but definitely not ideal. Most specs will include at least 1 point in Molten Core and only 1 point in Eradication as the talent is quite bad. I recommend reading:
World of Warcraft (en) Forums -> Talent Review: Eradication
To summarize for Eradication:
Q = 0.04, 1 point invested: 2.4%. Benefit from the first point: 2.4% spell haste.
Q = 0.07, 2 points invested: 3.3%. Benefit from the second point: 0.9% spell haste.
Q = 0.10, 3 points invested: 4.0%. Benefit from the third point: 0.7% spell haste.
It is silly to go 3 points in considering the rapidly diminishing returns that you get. Just get the first point and then go spend elsewhere.

reesj · 12/11/08, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by KingSpeedy

This is incorrect. Shadow Embrace can only be applied once, and will only benefit the warlock that applies it first. Other warlocks with the talent will refresh the debuff, but it will only buff the original warlock that applies it. I've tested this as thoroughly as I can think possible with another warlock and a target dummy.

This is a known and GC-acknowledged issue which likely stems from the Mortal Strike aspect of the debuff stacking and having unintended pvp side-effects.

Dam I thought If he fails to apply it and once you c the debuff in your dot rotation it will again benifit you. Anyway Can a US player PLZ PLZ report this again on the Damage dealing Forums. GC read the crap there quite often and hopefully can hear something soon.

Also what Meta are you guys using ?
From old habits and stuff I went for the Chaotic Skyflare Diamond
though you have to have 2 blue slots which is annoying and on top of that I just saw in here its rated really low. But I'm quite sure the guy did not calculate the 3% extra damage and did the Lazy mans just 21cri rating.
Will Bracing Earthsiege Diamond or Ember Skyflare Diamond better? Ofc reduce treat is still nice as You have fights like malygos where you will be treat caped and have more TPS than tank after the 1st air phase alone. But this mean using 1 blue gem. Ember one is really nice and also the highest DPS from the looks also.

Leshrac89 · 12/12/08, 5:01 AM

Originally Posted by reesj

Also what Meta are you guys using ?
From old habits and stuff I went for the Chaotic Skyflare Diamond
though you have to have 2 blue slots which is annoying and on top of that I just saw in here its rated really low. But I'm quite sure the guy did not calculate the 3% extra damage and did the Lazy mans just 21cri rating.
Will Bracing Earthsiege Diamond or Ember Skyflare Diamond better? Ofc reduce treat is still nice as You have fights like malygos where you will be treat caped and have more TPS than tank after the 1st air phase alone. But this mean using 1 blue gem. Ember one is really nice and also the highest DPS from the looks also.

I am using the Ember one due to lack of Blue gems, but come to think of it Socketing 2 blue gems for 21 crit rating and 3% crit damage is quite a waste for an affli lock. So I'll keep my Ember one and probably only resocket if I go destro.

Namnalia · 12/12/08, 9:33 AM

Update:

I included life taps in the calculation. I think the results are good enough now to spot the final errors and start filling other parts like the different talent builds - I will just stick to what the talent build discussion offers there.
Included Spirit now, and added the effect of BoK to the computation.
Removed the "Boss Level" damage decrease. It is still there as it seems, but it's not 15% (more like 5%). As it is a general factor, it does not change the results as a whole, so I just removed it.
Changed the way Malediction affects the damage output: It's just +3% total damage now. (I was confused by the german tooltip, but the Ironforge dummies weren't).
Still have to look into the eradication thing

I added a note making clear that all the dps-values are based on the model data and therefore are not to be taken without thinking what they mean. The purpose of this thread is to understand the basic math and effects behind affliction dps and every single spell as well as the way affliction works in general, not to find a perfect equip comparison - that's what spreadsheets are for (and a lot better at it!).

To the +crit-damage meta gem discussion above: I ran this through my simulation programm and wrote the result into the thread. To make it short: For an affliction spec, the gem just does not hit it anymore. As the difference is just a few dps, it does not really matter, though.