Nice work Drasil. What's the rationale for casting CoA before SL? I typically cast SL before CoA since it has a longer duration than CoA.

double post

Simply because it's higher DPS. 1.33 seconds extra of CoA is better than 1.33 seconds of SL.

There are situations where you would cast SL first though. I.E. if you expect the mob to die somewhat soon, and will get one duration of CoA, but not two. So you maximize your SL uptime by casting it first.

Edit: I just realized that the window of opportunity for it to be better to cast SL before CoA is if you know the mob will die in 29.3-31.3 seconds. So unless you have extraordinary timing, it's not really feasable.

The standard sequence is also quite easy to keep up. Did you test how your optimal start does in that area?
And a better start does not have to mean the total dmg on the fight will be higher necessarily, especially if threat will become an issue again, you might find yourself having to hold back because of a too enthousiastic start. Haven't checked your math so can't comment on that

Can this discussion somehow be moved to the dots and you topic, so we don't keep 2 threads, as Fallenman said.

I apologize for posting here. I thought this was the "rotations" thread, as opposed the more general purpose affliction one. Feel free to move my posts around, mods, if it's appropriate.

This rotation shouldn't be any more difficult to keep up, since it keeps UA and Immolate together, like usual.

The threat issue is an interesting one. This rotation is initially low on threat for the first few seconds, since it doesn't start with a DD. At about the ten second mark, it will be higher. But I think the most critical moments are the first seconds of the fight, not ten seconds in.

While I do agree on the fact that the "standard rotation" is most definitely not the best way to go (and I therefore don't use it myself), I believe that you did not factor the travel time of Haunt, which might lead to a second tick of corr being unhaunted. This could then bring the Corr UA Haunt Immo CoA SL rotation ahead (which is the one I am using tbh). This might change with haste and with range to the mob.

I did my calculations assuming enough haste to give you 1.33 second GCDs, and a 0.5 second haunt travel time. Using that, the second tick of corruption happens 0.17 seconds after haunt is applied. So it's close.

This rotation also splits up UA and Immo, which I'm sure is not preferable for a lot of people....but then again, to each his own


I tried your 'optimal' rotation last night in Naxx... (Corr, UA, Immo, Haunt, CoA, SL) I was happy with it..
I formerly was using Haunt, CoA, UA, Immo, Corr, SL

Honestly, sometimes I would accidently start with a UA/Immo combo...sometimes with CoA.... in the long run...in a fight that's going to last a few minutes, does it really matter? After the first 20/30 seconds, especially if you can't stand in one spot, it all just turns into a juggling act anyway right?

Or is this type of testing mainly just useful for trash mobs, that will only live 10-15 seconds..?
Also take note that in 7.7 seconds, you can probably cast 3 shadowbolts, and if 1 of them crits, then you can almost beat this damage anyway, can't you?

Shadow embrace is getting the fix for 3.0.8 so no more warlocks competing for the first SB.

Start with Haunt and you beat all the SB ppl :P

The problem here is that you're only looking at one part of the picture. Remember that ultimately you do not want to recast dots at the very end, when the boss will die, since the DPCT would be low as the dot cannot finish its full duration.

So to be honest, you can cast the dots in any order you want, it won't change your end dps result. All you're doing is trading front end damage, but it will even out on the back end. Focusing on the first X seconds in a fight is going to mislead you into thinking you're doing more dps, when in the end you're not.


I too have run many numbers on sequence, and the end result is the same. No matter what, the damage done is the same regardless of the order you cast them. The only difference is whether or not you can precast, which I have already covered.

I would think this is incorrect. If you get your highest dps dots running first rather than the lowest (for example getting Corr up before SL) then you will do slightly more dps over the whole fight than if you got SL up first. Whatever dot you put up first will be the dot that is on the target the longest for the fight and you want that to be your highest dps dot.

The 2nd point seemed to have the greater impact of the 2 points you made in the tests I ran using SimCraft mostly. I saw extremely small variations in overall damage done after changing the order of the casts. We're talking a couple dps at most.

Again remember that you stop casting DoTs once they won't last full duration as the boss is about to die. So If you have your harder hitting DoTs first, it just means your lesser hitting dots are on the back end, so the difference there is negligible. Same goes for the duration of DoTs, refreshing, and their affect in regards to the number of shadowbolts/haunt/etc that you cast.

Why bother? I always use TAB to switch between targets. I use DoTimer for monitoring DoT expirations plus the standard Blizz target pane.

With 2 mobs, it's trivial. You can almost apply all DoTs before you have to start refreshing. It's hard to get all DoTs in, which you want as they all make more damage than SB, but you also have consider time til death for each mob. So in reality in a Naxx raid, with 2 mobs, you usually end up with only Corr/Immo/UA at best, often only Corr/UA and then just Haunt/SB as much as possible.

With 3 mobs, the fight will last longer and you can probably apply at least Corr/Immo/UA on all 3 mobs, slip a Haunt in, then time to refresh those DoTs again. I often apply Corr first on all targets, then UA on all targets etc, depending on expected life time for the mobs. However, it's usually slightly easier to slip in some CoA so you won't have to refresh DoTs as much and can focus on putting SBs on the higher hp targets. A few seconds into the fight you often notice one mob going down much faster and DoTs on that mob were wasted. Very much timing issues and having to adjust your spell usage based on raid DPS. Looking at DoTimer to see when DoTs run out, you only have 2 targets that TAB can retarget to. So when you want to refresh a DoT on a target you don't have in target, press I press TAB once look at Blizz UI pane to see if it's the target I wanted, otherwise press TAB again. Simple.

With 4 mobs, things change. Now Seed starts to look attractive. Here I often end up varying my choise depending on situations. If raid DPS is good or some mobs have low HP, go Seed or even Rain of Fire. If they take time to kill, I can UA/CoA all, then Seed (can't Corr if using Seed, gets canceled).

With 5+ mobs, go Seed, no need to DoT. Finish with SBs when there's 3 or less targets alive, or DS which also keeps up your shard count.

In the end, I don't see any need to mouse click targets/UIs in any way, TAB always works fine.

Also, I press TAB immediatly after casting a spell. that gives me up to ~1.3 seconds to think before I have to cast the next spell. That's the time I check the Target pane if it's the best target to cast on next, including checking the HP. But yes, as a blue poster once posted, Affliction does feel like it takes a big brain to play sometimes. I love it!

53/1/17
Gear is current on armory.

I am only able to pull 2600 DPS on the dummy in IF with ~80% uptime on dots (could be much better) and ~25% shadow bolt damage. According to Leulier my DPS should be closer to 3600 self buffed with Misery, EP, Scorch etc set to min values.

I know that the dummy is a poor measure for Affliction but does that alone (with my poor uptime) account for the difference? Can anyone give me an approximate conversion for Dummy>Buffed 10M/25M Raid Dmg?

Where did you see this from? i have not seen this on the latest patch notes on the wow site or mmo champ

Laibniz, thanks for the reply

1) I could do better with prioritization I am sure, I will pay more attention to it. Am I right in thinking Haunt > Corruption > Agony > UA > Immo > SL > SB(DS)
2) I was on the heroic dummy.
3) Granted, not looking for a formula, just a general idea. i.e. I can do X DPS self-buffed on a dummy and I usually come in around Y in a 10M and Z in 25 mans with the important raid buffs for a typical boss fight.
4) No WWS because I have yet to raid Aff, I want to be doing passably well on a dummy before I try it in an actual raid.

(i) Shadow Embrace: This ability will now create a separate debuff stack for each Warlock with the talent, and each warlock will benefit properly from his or her own debuff.

PTR 3.0.8 Notes update - Professions and Bug fixes
(Bug section under Warlocks)

1) Generally you won't be refreshing corruption if you're good at keeping up haunt, although if it ever falls off it is the #1 priority dot. As far as the rest, during the last 25% I tend to drop immo in favor of a saner dot rotation and maximizing DS ticks (which for me are 10-14k). Also if you have any haste effects to blow that's the time to do it, popping a haste pot during bloodlust with DS can lead to some spectacular dps. Caveat being if you're channeling a particularly hasted DS you may be in a situation where you want to lets dots fall off vs breaking. I haven't run the numbers to see where this makes sense (if ever), but I tend to do it on channel times under 9s since usually just one or two dots will be off for a couple seconds.

3) Best rule of thumb is expect a couple hundred at best in 10s, a few hundred in 25s, and if you have an ideal raid comp consider yourself a very lucky warlock. The only boss fight that this really translates to is Patchwerk, alot of the other bosses depend much more on you and your group's execution.

4) Given the current easymode content, over 2600 dps on bosses should be pretty passable for 25-man Naxx if you have a competent group, and once you get a few gear upgrades it gets even easier to do better dps.

One tip that's really not touched upon, because most people don't care about trash mobs:

If a mob is going to die in < 20 seconds, you're actually better off trying to get your DoT's up first so they last full duration, rather than trying to get your stack of Shadow Embrace up. Usually, you get an idea of how quickly mobs are dying with your raid DPS, but typically, UA + Immolate + Haunt + Shadowbolt spam is what I do. If mobs are dying even quicker, just Shadowbolt spam. Moreover, if there are multiple adds, you want to start DoT'ing up the unfocused target, before the rest of your raid switches to it.

Affliction is never a strict rotation, and knowing when to change it up like this will help, as I'm sure there'll be boss encounters in the future where DPS has to switch to adds, like Muru. Not every fight is like Patchwerk.

Most of the rotation discussion here is based on the assumption the tank is misidrected and you sitting there just waiting for the mob to get to the tank and start the fight. Many fights start on the fly with your tank moving into position and the raid spreading out into assigned areas. In such situations instacasts while running will outperform any precasting which is impossible because it is much more important to get into proper position than it is to increase your dps by a few hundred damage. Over the course of a 3+ minute fight on a single target your start has a fractional increase in DPS, and any fight lasting under 30s an affliction lock does terrible dps time on anyway due to the ramp up nature of our current dps. The only real increase in dps is seen in a fight lasting between 30s-1m, which is a big trash mob or an add during a boss fight. The only such adds that die that quickly are adds on Anub and Banshees on KT.

The real meat of this thread should be about the priority of your rotation and not about miniscule dps increases from an insignificant portion of the fight.

While the math is insightful, its a distraction from the true discussions that should be happening.

I dont think you read the entire thing. We already discussed that if precasting is not possible, casting insta dots while moving into place etc is what should be done.