I had in mind MC and the 4 T7 bonus aswel, which all combined provide me with some kind of damage buff for a good proportion of the fight.
There is no additional value in having "some kind of damage buff" for a good proportion of the fight. All procs can be averaged to a stat gain over the fight and it's those averages you should be looking at.
There is also no additional value in double procs which give you big numbers, unless you stop using the filler to refresh your dots during it, a tactic I've seen no math on.
There is no additional value in having "some kind of damage buff" for a good proportion of the fight. All procs can be averaged to a stat gain over the fight and it's those averages you should be looking at.
There is also no additional value in double procs which give you big numbers, unless you stop using the filler to refresh your dots during it, a tactic I've seen no math on.
Point taken about the average across a fight.
Regarding the comment about double procs - This surely only applies to Affliction? When using incin spam builds I have seen very high DPS as a result of twin trinket procs during Heroism. Quite the opposite tactic is employed.
Have they "fixed" the Egg, I tried several times last night to get a proc off of Fel Armor, having just aquired it. I did not see a single proc. Lifetap to empty and wait to full health, not a single proc.
The Egg is still an upgrade for me, but a minor one without the proc.
Originally Posted by Dagaves
I got the egg just to try it out and I haven't gotten a proc in my testing this week. I run with Spider and Sundial, but would prefer either of the DS trinkets.
Originally Posted by Dramah
While [The Egg of Mortal Essence] does indeed continue to proc from Fel Armor, it cannot be depended on if you are looking for the haste proc as a dps increase. In my WoW Meter Online report, you can see that the proc just isn't there enough to be worth while...
The egg proc'd multiple times for me during Heroic Naxx Tuesday night as you can see in my report. It also proc'd for multiple healers. Hotifixed and/or broken since? Doubt it. Please run tests, document them and post results. Laying it out for someone else to investigate is just lazy imo.
The egg is a mixed bag, the shorter the fight, and the less across the board damage (aka aoe) then the less it's going to proc.
Like if you don't lifetap on a patchwerk fight, you won't take damage, and you won't get the egg proc.
on a fight like sarth+3 you take a lot of damage from many sources, the egg will always have something to proc off of because you will rarely be at full hp for long. The point is, there are many better trinkets then the egg, but the egg is a good starter.
The character linked in your profile appears to be below level 10. This may account for your poor Patchwerk DPS.
Point taken about the average across a fight.
Regarding the comment about double procs - This surely only applies to Affliction? When using incin spam builds I have seen very high DPS as a result of twin trinket procs during Heroism. Quite the opposite tactic is employed.
The point is that each proc is accounted for on its own. The fact that you can have two trinkets proc at the same time (particularly when they're both spell power) does not add anything that isn't summarized by calculating the individual average gain.
I have to say that I'm slightly dissapointed at your negative attitude here. Its not what I have grown acustomed to from these threads.
snip...
I have read the thread thouroughly and there has been no direct post patch comparison between the two trinkets. Your rather arbitrary estimation of "a big upgrade" doesnt really provide me with much useful data. Especially considering IotDS requires "Upkeep" to gain its full potential.
Now if you could kindly take your wholy unhelpful superiority complex and cram it your ass, it would be much appreciated. Although I somehow doubt it would fit.
I wasn't being negative, I was telling you to look for data already provided in the thread previously. I'm sorry you can't appreciate the difference.
The question you asked was whether IoDTS was an upgrade over sundial, which has been answered exhaustively. Even at the PTR level of 18 dmg per stack, IoDTS would still beat the sundial. Always.
Keeping up the stack is not an issue, as many others have discussed and described. Again, I'm not sure how you missed this given that you've said you've read the thread carefully.
For someone "dissappointed at my negative attitude," I find it surprising you don't have any compunction about making insulting comments about my ass. You'd do better to treat others the way you'd like to be treated. Of the two of us, you're the only one to use insults as a means of making your point.
The egg proc'd multiple times for me during Heroic Naxx Tuesday night as you can see in my report. It also proc'd for multiple healers. Hotifixed and/or broken since? Doubt it. Please run tests, document them and post results. Laying it out for someone else to investigate is just lazy imo.
I am not trying to be lazy, I tried on 4 spearate occasions to life tap to empty and wait for a fel armor tick to
procc the egg. I did not see a single buff appear for the haste buff at any time in those 4 tests. Do you have to be in combat?
I tested, then asked if anyone else had the same problem.
Edit: I tested it again and it did procc out of combat on fel armor, however the proc rate off of fell armor is very low in my opinion,
I think the egg of mortal essence is > the mark of the war prisoner simply because its' static spell power...atleast for affliction.
Assuming you are hit capped...10 spell power = 8.67 dps (MaxDps.Com) (98 / 10) X 8.67 = 84.996 dps for the egg of mortal essence minus any procs. I won't deny that the mark of the war prisoner is better if you aren't hit capped, seeing as how if you're affliction and not hit capped it's a pain trying to pull off the rotation. However for being hit capped mark of the war prisoner has a use of 346 spell power for 20 seconds every 2 minutes. This means the use of the trinket is up 1/6th of the time. ((364 / 6) /10) X 8.67 = 52.598 dps.
I think if you're hit capped The Egg of Mortal Essence is superior to The Mark of the War Prisoner. However if you aren't hit capped, especially for affliction, The Mark of the War prisoner is the better way to go.
Note me casting then removing my Fel Armor buff, then Life Tapping for a while and recieving the buff. Last line is me mounting.
I'm not sure if this has been posted before, if so I apologize.
EDIT: I have yet to see it procc of Fel Armor, and having Life Tap triggering the buff, you're never sure if it's the Life Tap or the Fel Armor tick that actually triggered it.
I wasn't being negative, I was telling you to look for data already provided in the thread previously. I'm sorry you can't appreciate the difference.
The question you asked was whether IoDTS was an upgrade over sundial, which has been answered exhaustively. Even at the PTR level of 18 dmg per stack, IoDTS would still beat the sundial. Always.
Keeping up the stack is not an issue, as many others have discussed and described. Again, I'm not sure how you missed this given that you've said you've read the thread carefully.
For someone "dissappointed at my negative attitude," I find it surprising you don't have any compunction about making insulting comments about my ass. You'd do better to treat others the way you'd like to be treated. Of the two of us, you're the only one to use insults as a means of making your point.
Granted. I was irked by your tone which I found a more than a little condecending, mixed up with a bad day at work... I'm usually a little more tolerant and less quick to react rashly. So I appologise about my ill concieved speculation on your ass / attitude ratio.
However, I never disputed that it may infact be an upgrade, what I was trying to find out is how much of an upgrade. As a guild we raid about 6 hours a week. We all have busy lives. We have to be very efficient, and targeting upgardes is important for me. Blowing a bunch of DKP on a item that might only provide a small DPS boost is not something I'm interested in doing. That question has been answered - its a decent upgrade and worth spending a moderate amount of DKP on.
To take the IOTDS conversation a little further....
When someone asks you what's your spell power, would you tell them (I'm going to use random numbers here) you're spell power is 2200, or would you say it's 2400 (since the +200 is pretty much active all the time in battle).
To take the IOTDS conversation a little further....
When someone asks you what's your spell power, would you tell them (I'm going to use random numbers here) you're spell power is 2200, or would you say it's 2400 (since the +200 is pretty much active all the time in battle).
I would say the former. The reason being that everyone has trinkets that proc or have on use applications. Playing devil's advocate, should I add another (approx) 120 spellpower to what I quote since I have dying curse, since that's how it averages out over the course of the fight?
It points out why quoting stats is really ballparking a gearing point. The fewer stats you quote, the less precise the information. I get a lot better idea about a person's gear if they tell me their hit, crit, haste, sp, and spec than if I just hear their spellpower.
If the person asking is really interested in gear level or your gear set-up (as opposed to epeen), he's going to want all the context around your trinkets, spec, etc..., anyway.
To take the IOTDS conversation a little further....
When someone asks you what's your spell power, would you tell them (I'm going to use random numbers here) you're spell power is 2200, or would you say it's 2400 (since the +200 is pretty much active all the time in battle).
I've wondered this exact thing, and although it doesn't sound as cool to say the lesser value-- It is the value they are requesting. I like to think of it as a secret trick in my bag that I wont tell you about unless conversation is serious.
It's a lil' something to make them wonder how you did more dps than them with otherwise similar stats.
I do remember reading that Blizzard was planning to "fix" the egg from the HoT ticks given from Fel Armor. I'll look for the link. . .
Also I have noticed that since 3.0.8, that Dragon soul no longer procs off of Detect Invis/Underwater Breathing/Armors or another spell that you could easily use to make sure you always have it stacked to 10. Thankfully, it still procs off of Life Tap.
I do remember reading that Blizzard was planning to "fix" the egg from the HoT ticks given from Fel Armor. I'll look for the link. . .
Also I have noticed that since 3.0.8, that Dragon soul no longer procs off of Detect Invis/Underwater Breathing/Armors or another spell that you could easily use to make sure you always have it stacked to 10. Thankfully, it still procs off of Life Tap.
Health funnel is the most convenient way to stack it before the pull now. Its more work than detect invis was, but its not too bad. Note that it doesn't do 1 stack per tick of Health Funnel, but rather 1 stack for each time you cast health funnel. I just cast, cancel, repeat.
I can indeed say the Egg does not proc from Fel Armor anymore.
I did a little test on my own, and it shows it will only proc from lifetap.
I removed fel armor, hit lifetap and the trinket procced. From that moment on I used lifetap to get my health as low as possible. The red part is lifetapping 30 seconds after the first proc so I would not proc the trinket by lifetap, the 45 second internal cooldown (correct me if I'm wrong).
This test was over 1 minute 30.
Emy's Fel Armor fades from Emy.
Emy's Spirits of the Damned fades from Emy.
Emy's Drink fades from Emy.
Emy gains Emy's Essence of Life.
Emy gains Emy's Spirits of the Damned.
Emy gains 4092 Mana from Emy's Life Tap.
Spirits of the Damned is refreshed on Emy.
Emy gains 5172 Mana from Emy's Life Tap.
Spirits of the Damned is refreshed on Emy.
Emy gains 5172 Mana from Emy's Life Tap.
Emy gains Emy's Fel Armor.
Emy's Essence of Life fades from Emy.
Emy gains 323 Health from Emy's Fel Armor.
Emy's Spirits of the Damned fades from Emy.
Emy gains 324 Health from Emy's Fel Armor.
Emy gains 323 Health from Emy's Fel Armor.
Emy gains 323 Health from Emy's Fel Armor.
Emy gains 323 Health from Emy's Fel Armor.
Emy gains 323 Health from Emy's Fel Armor.
Emy gains 324 Health from Emy's Fel Armor.
Emy gains 324 Health from Emy's Fel Armor.
Emy gains 324 Health from Emy's Fel Armor.
Emy gains Emy's Spirits of the Damned.
Emy gains 4092 Mana from Emy's Life Tap.
Spirits of the Damned is refreshed on Emy.
Emy gains 5172 Mana from Emy's Life Tap.
Emy gains 323 Health from Emy's Fel Armor.
Emy gains 323 Health from Emy's Fel Armor.
Emy's Spirits of the Damned fades from Emy.
Emy gains 324 Health from Emy's Fel Armor.
Emy gains 324 Health from Emy's Fel Armor.
Emy gains 324 Health from Emy's Fel Armor.
Emy gains 323 Health from Emy's Fel Armor.
Emy gains 324 Health from Emy's Fel Armor.
Emy gains 323 Health from Emy's Fel Armor.
Emy gains 324 Health from Emy's Fel Armor.
Emy gains 323 Health from Emy's Fel Armor.
Emy gains 323 Health from Emy's Fel Armor.
I'm not sure if I agree that The Egg of Mortal Essence doesn't proc off Fel Armor any longer. I just picked it up last night and over the course of our 3 hour Naxx run it did proc 18 times. Granted some may have been from potions or health stones but if you'll notice on the Razuvious fight I didn't use either and it did proc once. Although that could possibly have been due to it proccing off Life Tap as it appears some people have found.
However, while it still procs from Fel Armor I was VERY disappointed with how little it did. In the Four Horsemen fight I found it only procced once even though the fight was close to 5 minutes long and my Fel Armor ticked 42 times.
Last edited by Melekal : 02/05/09 at 4:33 PM.
Reason: updated information added
All of the top-end trinkets appear to be passive (even if passive in a way that requires a certain amount of management, such as keeping a stack up between phases of a fight). Are there any competitive active trinkets? I've always enjoyed trinket management as part of the complexity of the game, but it's really looking like the best trinkets are the passive ones.
I'm not sure if I agree that The Egg of Mortal Essence doesn't proc off Fel Armor any longer. I just picked it up last night and over the course of our 3 hour Naxx run it did proc 18 times. Granted some may have been from potions or health stones but if you'll notice on the Razuvious fight I didn't use either and it did proc once. Although that could possibly have been due to it proccing off Life Tap as it appears some people have found.
However, while it still procs from Fel Armor I was VERY disappointed with how little it did. In the Four Horsemen fight I found it only procced once even though the fight was close to 5 minutes long and my Fel Armor ticked 42 times.
So you're saying The Egg of Mortal Essence has a 2% proc chance from Fel Armor? How about... more likely it has a 0% proc chance from Fel Armor, but it does proc from Life Tap.
So you're saying The Egg of Mortal Essence has a 2% proc chance from Fel Armor? How about... more likely it has a 0% proc chance from Fel Armor, but it does proc from Life Tap.
I wonder if this is also a "bug", or if they intend it to continue working this way. If so, it becomes a potentially interesting top-end trinket in combination with 4T7.
But I still wouldn't invest in it until Blizzard lets us know whether this is a bug or "WAD".
On the debate of double trinket procs, proccing two trinkets at the same time theoretically doesn't matter as they are additive, not multiplicative, but the true power lies in hitting other timers that ARE multiplicative (for example, on a rogue having 2 trinkets proc and you use Blade Flurry/Adreneline Rush). Granted as warlocks we don't have as many timers like that that would help us, you could see both trinket procs and throw a Conflag if its not on cooldown and throw one or two Soulfires for the high coefficient.
The value of this could be debated all day though because you'd have to hold off on using your timers as most if not all of the trinkets are no longer on use but passives, or get lucky on proccing both during Bloodlust/Eradication procs.
01/30/09, 12:06 PM
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