Never mind I got my answer. Please delete this post.

When you equip an item with some kind of cooldown, I'm quite certain that cooldown starts at 30 seconds.

Please don't make misleading statements such as this one. There is nothing wrong with relying on Dying Curse for 71 hit rating, it's an excellent trinket. There is plenty of Ulduar caster gear without hit rating on it.

This statement could be very misleading as well. If Dying Curse is your best or second best trinket you have then you should wear it. But if you reach Hitcap without it and you have better trinkets like Flare of the Heavens, Scale of Fates or even Embrace of the Spider then don't _rely_ on Dying Curse or Living Flame.

Again, I would strongly disagree with this, because the numbers don't stack up, and you aren't backing up your statement that Dying Curse is a "bad" trinket. Embrace of the Spider is a relatively poor trinket - the numbers in nenad's earlier post show that. However, the ratings he gives for Dying Curse and Living Flame are entirely spurious. As you gear for 14% hit you don't get there and add in a trinket with 71 or 107 hit rating afterwards. You take other items that don't have hit on them. A fairer comparison would involve running simcraft on the same gear set but taking gear containing 71 or 107 hit away and adding back in other gear with crit or haste. In the past my own calculations have shown Dying Curse to be on a par with Scale of Fates in terms of overall stat budgeting and DPS value - when I get time this weekend I'll dig them out and re-run them with the new version and post the results.

What part exactly you find misleading there?

Where did I say that there is anything wrong in relying on Dying Curse for 71 hit rating?

I guess for people who do not read carefully, anything can be misleading. But if you read again, you will notice that I said "these are numbers for ...hit capped (over 14%) even without trinkets - something most of warlocks should have today".

So if you happen not to be among those, it is fine - and Dying Curse is good trinket that provide +hit. But in that case my post was not intended for you to use. When you get to the point that you will have over 14% hit even without trinkets, then it will be useful. And many warlocks with Ulduar gear are already in that position.

No hit trinket vs Dying curse:
+10 sta, -4 int, +36 spi, -3 sp, +7 crit, -100 haste

Now that just seems off. The items you must have swapped around to regain hit must have been terrible- to regain 71 hit you should never invest more than the equivilant of 85 spellpower. Why? Because that's how much you'd lose from gemming hit instead of spellpower. And gemming for hit is a pretty terrible way of getting hit rating to begin with. Also simulationcraft doesn't assume IotDS is stacked before the fight starts, so it's undervalued pretty heavily.

What you really should conclude though, is that wether or not you use dying curse should depend solely on what items/gems you would personally have to swap in/out to compensate for the hit loss.

No, most you can say is that it implies that if you are hit capped even without trinkets, you shouldn't be using hit trinket.

If you are under or around hit cap, then obviously that table is not suitable ranking order.

But regarding your list, I doubt that even if you are under hit cap it would result in such ordering - because it would be more DPS efficient to fill hit cap with hit on items. Only if you have no suitable items with +hit to get near 14% hit would your table be suitable.

Of course, there are number of warlocks in that situation, so it is useful for one subset of warlock population - just like my table is useful for other subset of warlock population. But I still hold on belief that for warlocks who get regular ulduar gear , we have (or will have) more warlocks that are able to get 14% hit from gear alone, than we would have those unable to do so.

So people over hit cap can use my list, those under hit cap can use other list, and those around 14% would have to make choice which one is closer - or even better, to run simulation with their own char.

I think you are missing his point, Nenad. If you are hit capped without trinkets, you can add a hit trinket (the Dying Curse is really the only good one IMO) and then decrease your hit rating from your gear and consequently increase a DPS stat like crit or haste. Simply saying "I already have enough hit with this gear so I dont need to use a hit trinket" is a close-minded way of looking at things. Any time you can get a large quantity of hit from one item, it opens up other items to be improved to gear without hit rating. Would you prefer to run 3 items with approximately 24 hit each or a single trinket with 71 hit? My generalized opinion is that any gear with hit rating is less powerful than one without it, unfortunately we are required to reach a certain hit rating to be optimal, so stack as much hit as possible on as few items as you can. By that logic, the hit trinket is far more powerful than the 3 items with 24 each.

Lets not forget that the Dying Curse's proc is fairly substantial as well.

This is wrong. Hit is simply part of the item budget, having hit on multiple items does not cost more total item budget than having it on a single item. In fact you could argue that having it in smaller amounts is preferable- the reason for this is that when you have fewer different stats on items, Blizzard tends to up the stamina slightly. You can see this very clearly with plate vs leather, plate doesn't get agility, and as a result ends up getting more stamina (This is also something Blizzard has more or less 'admitted').

The best gear I could find that hit-capped me without trinkets didn't allow me to equip all of the insanely overpowered stuff from 10-man hard modes, I needed to take gimped 25-man unsocketed easy mode hit/spirit stuff. As soon as I dropped a hit trinket in there I could use more of them. The reason for the huge difference is because you end up with gear with lots of gems. So, no, I wasn't gemmed for hit, but unless I've overlooked a piece of good hit gear (which I'm sure I must have done given those numbers) that's the difference that fell out of the other side.

I agree it might be undervalued for some theoretical Patchwerk mob with three times the hit points, which is what simcraft is for, but you'll frequently lose your 10x stack in Ulduar, so don't get too hung up on pre-stacking. Yes, the numbers can be improved for this hypothetical situation, but I don't think it's a particularly good hard-mode trinket due to the large amount of DPS downtime spent running away out of spell cast range in many fights.

I absolutely, totally and utterly support every word of this statement. I would also implore people to use their heads and make sure that the mechanics of whatever trinket you're currently using sits well with the fight you're doing. Does it make sense to use a trinket with a haste proc or use on General Vezax? Well, no. The best Vezax trinket isn't even in this list - the one that reduces the cost of spells by 42 mana (I forget the name and Wowhead is misbehaving here) is better than any of these for that fight on hard mode and probably normal mode as well, for obvious reasons. Likewise, IotDS is not strong on XT-002 but is hugely powerful on the Assembly of Iron. The use (rather than proc) trinkets are strong on XT-002 but weak on the Assembly of Iron. There isn't just a particular pair of trinkets that are better than all the others regardless of the fight you're doing.

It is, but only if you're unable to switch out a hit item for a non-hit item elsewhere. If you are able to make that switch the waters are heavily muddied.

Rank 1 Lifetap has solved that problem for me nicely, along with casting Corruption on the run when forced to move. Granted it is something else you have to pay attention to, which perhaps not every player can or would even want to deal with (especially on frantic hard mode content), but it can be done.

The entire discussion about whether or not to equip a hit trinket or not is completely hypothetical, because no one knows all of the available equipment you have at your disposal other than you. You can model around a BiS scenario, but not everyone will have access to those items, or will be in a position to loot them even if they do drop. Likewise, multiple pieces of your current gear setup can change to accomodate a new drop at a moment's notice.

I am personally using IotDS/EotBM at the moment because it is the best option available to me given all of my equipped and banked gear. The moment Hodir decides to drop the Staff of Endless Winter though, Dying Curse will be swapped back in for IotDS, I'll make ring change, and it'll be time to rock and roll again.

There are plenty of existing resources to tell you the relative value of your stats, and others that indicate specific values on individual trinket procs. Use them to get an idea of the tradeoff you'd be making in either using or not using a hit trinket, because the answer won't be the same for everyone.

My trinks are Elemental Focus Stone, Dying Curse, Sundial and I just won Living flame tonight. I am wayy over capped but i cant help it because its also the best gear I have atm. Up until tonight i was using Dying Curse + Sundial, but swapped Sundail for the Living Flame. RAWR is telling me that I just downgraded. Im assuming its not so much the proc but the crit off of the Sundial.

Do I swap back in the sundial? I wont ever see hardmodes before the next patch, so besides winning IotDS, this is as good as it gets for me.

Yes? You're picking up hit that is completely wasted. The only thing that makes Living Flame somewhat decent is the fact that it has 107 hit rating on it and the On-Use can be controlled. If that hit rating is wasted, than it's not worth using.

Edit: I got it all wrong. Please delete this post.

Looking at the loot rank of hit trinkets vs non-hit trinkets, it is clear that trinkets give very little DPS increase for the hit they give. It's better to find your hit rating elsewhere, and go for non-hit trinkets.
As a small example:
Elemental Focus Stone gives 108 hit, but is only about 10 DPS increase over Flare of the Heavens. That's 0.09 DPS/hit. Compare that to Collar of the Wyrmhunter, which gives 51 hit for about 50 DPS increase over Cowl of Dark Whispers. That's almost 1 DPS/hit.
If I remember correctly, I used Loot Rank for WotLK (as defined in EJ affliction thread) as a starting point. Checks with other weights for other builds as posted here on the EJ forums gave similar results: trinkets are not a good source of hit.

If you're going to make a sweeping statement like that, please qualify it with some evidence. I disagree with what you've said entirely, for the reasons mentioned in my earlier posts on this thread. Where exactly is this "loot rank of hit trinkets vs non-hit trinkets" of which you speak, and why is it "clear" that hit trinkets aren't as good as non-hit trinkets?

EDIT: Seeing as you've updated your post, where did you get those weightings from? If it's just for your own gear and spec, it doesn't help anyone other than yourself very much. If it isn't for your own gear and spec and it's for some set of weightings you've picked up out of another thread, you need to reference it. If you're trying to tell us that your statement applies to all gear sets and all specs, then I'm sorry, but you're pretty dumb.

I got a choice to make... currently I have eye of the broodmother + sundial of te exiled. I want to get IotDS and either living flame or scale of fates. Optigear keeps on telling to get scale of fates (based on scaling factors), but I could use some hit and scale of fates cant be used during BL which makes it a bit worse also. So is scale of fates still better even though it cant be used during BL and I could use some hit?

Scale of Fates CAN be used during BL. From the top of my head just Power Infusion (discipline priest buff) doesnt stack with BL.

It does stack with bloodlust, power infusion doesn't stack with "enrage" type stuff, like an arcane mage's arcane power (though it does stack with meta morphosis \o/). I have shadowbolts casting at ~1s cast time with scale of fates+PI+hero. Without PI it's ~1.2s.

Depending on your spec, scale of the fates isn't useful during BL, with good gear destro is totally worthless with Both scale of the fates and BL going do to the extreme amount of haste from backdraft. That being said, since destro has no execute you can use it any time and do pretty well.

The thing is, if you need a hit trinket than living flame is better than either of your trinkets, as is IOTDS and scale, the only choice you would have to make is based purely on the fight you are on. For instance, vezax+scale=terrible choice, but having on use +dmg can be very good.