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Old 05/27/09, 1:13 PM   #391
alhill
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Vek'nilash
A good rule of thumb I use to get around the issue of valuing hit after reaching hit cap is to convert hit to spell power at the same ratio as the amount of hit on a yellow gem vs. the amount of spell power on red gem.

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Old 05/27/09, 3:54 PM   #392
Diogi
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Stormreaver
Please delete. The simcraft scale factors for dps stats has changed and while my point is likely still valid I will need to do some new calculations.

Last edited by Diogi : 05/29/09 at 10:39 AM. Reason: simcraft dps scaling updated

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Old 05/30/09, 3:16 PM   #393
krilz
Don Flamenco
 
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Orc Warlock
 
Laughing Skull (EU)
One quick question: Is the [Extract of Necromantic Power] still considered one of the worse trinkets around, even for Affliction?

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Old 05/31/09, 1:13 PM   #394
Jovaras
Glass Joe
 
Undead Warlock
 
Lightning's Blade (EU)
Originally Posted by Viper007Bond View Post
Spider hands down. The constant spell power is better than hoping the Sundial procs while you're applying DoTs and not casting SB's.

And the haste cap is 1639, so I don't think you have to worry about too much haste.
What if you are destro?

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Old 06/01/09, 2:07 AM   #395
Yeoldelock
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Warlock
 
Sen'jin
Originally Posted by krilz View Post
One quick question: Is the [Extract of Necromantic Power] still considered one of the worse trinkets around, even for Affliction?
Yeah, it is. Even back when Affliction could put up Immolate and Siphon Life was a separate spell, it wasn't too hot. The 15 second internal cooldown was good, but the damage was weak and it didn't proc too often.

For two easy to get, effective trinkets, go for Sundial + Dying Curse and build from there.

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Old 06/04/09, 2:17 PM   #396
hendrata
Glass Joe
 
Undead Warlock
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Yeoldelock View Post
Yeah, it is. Even back when Affliction could put up Immolate and Siphon Life was a separate spell, it wasn't too hot. The 15 second internal cooldown was good, but the damage was weak and it didn't proc too often.

For two easy to get, effective trinkets, go for Sundial + Dying Curse and build from there.
Ok so I've been running Naxx25 forever and never won the roll on [Dying Curse]. But I did win [Extract of Necromantic Power].

My current two trinkets are [Mark of the War Prisoner] and [Sundial of the Exiled]. One would think that because [Mark of the War Prisoner] is a level 200 blue versus [Extract of Necromantic Power] level 213 purple, that it is vastly inferior. But if I choose the purple, I'd be giving up +73 hit which I cannot make up in gems (since some of my gems are already +16 hit, and if I regem completely I would lose the meta bonus).

So right now the choice is between [Extract of Necromantic Power] and [Sundial of the Exiled] while keeping the blue trinket, and from boss dummy trials, it seems that [Sundial of the Exiled] wins, which is quite sad considering that this is emblems bought and the other is a Sapph drop.

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Old 06/04/09, 7:48 PM   #397
Manny
Glass Joe
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Spirestone
Has anyone done the math to see if [Dying Curse] yields a higher net dps over [Living Flame] because of the shorter internal cooldown, assuming one would be at or over hit cap using either?

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Old 06/05/09, 1:33 AM   #398
Gerian
Banned
 
Human Warlock
 
Arthas
Originally Posted by Warlocomotif View Post
The reason hit is valued at "1" dps, is because if you value hit too high, you'll get way too much of it and it loses it's value.
I think you're still missing the point. You value hit as 3.27 DPS UNTIL YOU ARE CAPPED. You end up with too much hit by taking too many hit items not by weighing hit too strongly. If that isn't obvious to you then I give up.

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Old 06/05/09, 3:14 AM   #399
Netfelix
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Lightning's Blade
Originally Posted by Manny View Post
Has anyone done the math to see if [Dying Curse] yields a higher net dps over [Living Flame] because of the shorter internal cooldown, assuming one would be at or over hit cap using either?
Dying Curse:

10(Duration)/45(Minimum CD) = .222222
.222222 * 765 = 170 effective SP increase

Living Flame:
20 / 120 = .166666
.166666 * 505 = 84 effective SP increase

This assumes Dying Curse procs every time it's CD is up, which it doesn't. It only has a 15% proc rate. So, lets use some VERY rough probability:

100% / 15 = 6.6667 <---- This is the number of casts that (roughly) need to be thrown to get a proc.

With my haste, Incinerate is 1.7 seconds.

6.6667 * 1.7 = 12 seconds of casting including a small amount of lag

Dying Curse:

10(Duration)/57(rough CD) = .175438
.175438 * 765 = 134 effective SP increase

Dying curse is better, assuming you're hit capped either way.

Here's the big wrench though. Living Flame is a use trinket. You know you can use it on the most effective part of your rotation, where as the Dying Curse can proc at the worst time, say, right before you have to move, or there's a phase change and 0 DPS is being done. For destro, lets say, you can get 2 immolates, and a curse of doom into every trinket cool down of the living flame. This provides a huge boost to conflag too. Or, you could save it for the burn down of XT's heart, etc, etc. In conclusion, I'd weigh the Dying Curse more on tank n spank fights, where I'd use the Living Flame on burn down, high movement, and presicion fights ... aka Ulduar.

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Old 06/05/09, 5:25 AM   #400
robmoss2k
Von Kaiser
 
Human Warlock
 
Kul Tiras (EU)
Originally Posted by Gerian View Post
I think you're still missing the point. You value hit as 3.27 DPS UNTIL YOU ARE CAPPED. You end up with too much hit by taking too many hit items not by weighing hit too strongly. If that isn't obvious to you then I give up.
I think you're missing the point. In terms of gear selection, hit isn't actually worth DPS as such, it's just something you have to have. It's something you cap based on gear and buffs - period. Assign a value of zero DPS to hit rating, leave your other stat weightings as they are and choose the best selection of gear from the resultant list whereby you are hit capped.

Furthermore, over a time-limited fight, your first point of hit is worth more than your final point of hit, as the closer you are to the hit cap the less entropy is introduced into your rotation, which matters in particular for spells with cooldowns and for spells that buff other spells.

That said, I've never been keen on this whole "this stat is worth this much and that stat is worth that much" fallacy. Every time you add a point of this stat or lose a point of this other stat your numbers change. It's a reasonable guide, but it is most certainly not an exact science, and seeing this "omg hit is worth 3.27 dps until you cap and 0 dps after" "no it's worth 1 dps" "no 3.27" "no 1" "no 3.27 omg omg omg" isn't quite what I've come to expect from an ordinarily so reliable source as EJ.

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Old 06/05/09, 5:31 AM   #401
Viper007Bond
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Warlock
 
Windrunner
Originally Posted by Netfelix View Post
Living Flame:
20 / 120 = .166666
.166666 * 505 = 84 effective SP increase

[snip]

Dying Curse:

10(Duration)/57(rough CD) = .175438
.175438 * 765 = 134 effective SP increase

Dying curse is better, assuming you're hit capped either way.

Here's the big wrench though. Living Flame is a use trinket. You know you can use it on the most effective part of your rotation, where as the Dying Curse can proc at the worst time, say, right before you have to move, or there's a phase change and 0 DPS is being done. For destro, lets say, you can get 2 immolates, and a curse of doom into every trinket cool down of the living flame. This provides a huge boost to conflag too. Or, you could save it for the burn down of XT's heart, etc, etc. In conclusion, I'd weigh the Dying Curse more on tank n spank fights, where I'd use the Living Flame on burn down, high movement, and presicion fights ... aka Ulduar.
Not to mention that while on paper Dying Curse has effectively 50 more spell power, you could potentially make that up by switching out other pieces of gear due to needing 36 less hit.

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Old 06/05/09, 5:49 AM   #402
VenomByte
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Warlock
 
Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
Hit as x dps until you are capped is a more reliable indicator.

It is entirely possible that the optimal gearset for you can turn out to be 1-2 points shy of your desired hit cap, purely because you may well have to choose between being ~2 points under hit cap or ~4 points over. In this case, the 'lost' dps from being below hit cap can be noticably less than the 'lost' dps by sacrificing stats to get those last half dozen points of hit. This is something you simply would not pick up if you always value hit at 1dps, or some other convenient value.

We may not be talking about life changing numbers here, but when dealing with optimisation it's important to be as accurate as possible.

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Old 06/05/09, 10:06 AM   #403
robmoss2k
Von Kaiser
 
Human Warlock
 
Kul Tiras (EU)
Originally Posted by VenomByte View Post
It is entirely possible that the optimal gearset for you can turn out to be 1-2 points shy of your desired hit cap, purely because you may well have to choose between being ~2 points under hit cap or ~4 points over.
This is absolutely 100% true for a target dummy. However, I would argue that any chance at all of missing a single spell on the heart during a hard-mode XT-002 Deconstructor try, for example, would make a gear set 1 or 2 hit rating below the cap less than optimal. It all depends on your definition of "optimal."

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Old 06/07/09, 7:52 AM   #404
crit
Glass Joe
 
Human Warlock
 
Thunderlord
Ive gone through this thread, and haven't seen this. As Darkmoon Card: Death and Extract of Necromantic Power share similar styles of proc, does anyone know if they share and internal cooldown?

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Old 06/07/09, 4:04 PM   #405
Teroy
Glass Joe
 
Human Warlock
 
Thrall
I don't believe that any trinkets share a CD. I have dying curse/sundial and they both proc at the same time all the time.

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