Trinket Discussion - Page 5

Bergtau · 12/16/08, 6:20 PM

Originally Posted by Nicarras

Corr - Instant + 1.5 GCD
SL - Instant + 1.5 GCD
CoA - Instant + 1 GCD
Haunt - 1.5s + 1.5 GCD
UA - 1.5s + 1.5 GCD
Immo - 1.5s (talented) + 1.5 GCD
SB - 2.5s (talented) + 1.5 GCD

17s / 7 spells = 2.42s average cast+GCD in the rotation

so

2.42 / .1 = 24.2s = Average time to proc Embrace.
2.42 / .15 = 16.13s = Average time to proc Curse.

Thats the big factor...just modeling the proc chance....I think the above model may be a bit overly simplistic. Would be easy enough to take the math from there.

The best way to do that is to take your most recent WWS and add up all your spell casts and divide by the time in the fight. Simply adding up the times on all the spells and dividing them by 7 doesn't work because you aren't casting them in equal amounts.

While doing what I'd recommended, I noticed that Pandemic reads as hits on WWS. Does it have the ability to proc trinkets?

• KingSpeedy · 12/16/08, 6:27 PM

Originally Posted by Nicarras

Corr - Instant + 1.5 GCD
SL - Instant + 1.5 GCD
CoA - Instant + 1 GCD
Haunt - 1.5s + 1.5 GCD
UA - 1.5s + 1.5 GCD
Immo - 1.5s (talented) + 1.5 GCD
SB - 2.5s (talented) + 1.5 GCD

17s / 7 spells = 2.42s average cast+GCD in the rotation

It seems by your math that you're counting Haunt, Immo, and UA as 3sec casts and SB as 4sec. The GCD is triggered when you start the casts, not when they finish.

PSGarak · 12/16/08, 7:16 PM

Originally Posted by Sydane

One issue I have had with [Embrace of the Spider] is it procs off of everything, and I do mean everything. Zoning, eating, any possible action that the game somehow interprets as a spell. The problem is, it almost always procs while I'm doing something during boss prep, from dropping healthstones to eating, and I often end up running into combat with it on cooldown. It's not a massive detriment to the value of the trinket. especially in a long fight, but it does explain a lot of parses where the Sundial has one more proc than the Embrace does.

You can unequip the trinket during preparation and put it on right before the pull. Since it's not a clicky, it's the proc rather than the trinket that has the cooldown so it shouldn't spend 30s cooling down after equip. Of course, this runs the very real risk of not having a trinket at all during the fight, from early mispulls as well as spontaneously developing a case of The Stupid. I mention it as a possibility, but I don't recomend it for any but the most anal and memorious, else the cure is worse than the problem.

krilz · 12/16/08, 7:49 PM

Originally Posted by rutiene

I still haven't seen much math on a comparison between the Sundial and Embrace. I think we all agree that:

Illustration > Dying Curse > Sundial/Embrace

At the moment, I have Dying Curse, Sundial, and Embrace. Personally, I'm using Dying Curse + Embrace as a static +spell power and then a proc'd +haste by logic should be better than +crit and then a proc'd +sp. Any advice on how to model these?

I'd like to throw in the Extract as well just to hear some opinions about it.

• Nicarras · 12/16/08, 8:03 PM

Originally Posted by KingSpeedy

It seems by your math that you're counting Haunt, Immo, and UA as 3sec casts and SB as 4sec. The GCD is triggered when you start the casts, not when they finish.

Yeah sorry, I blame my lack of sleep and being on call this week

I need a chunk of time just to do the right math and hammer this out the right way.

merlins · 12/17/08, 1:48 AM

Ok so I currently have these 3 trinkets, which 2 should I use as 2/13/56

[Sundial of the Exiled]
[The Egg of Mortal Essence]
[Item not found!]

Anthraxx · 12/17/08, 4:38 AM

Egg was reported to be "fixed".

MagisterLudi · 12/17/08, 9:42 AM

Fellow Warlocks, Concerning the [The Egg of Mortal Essence] and Fel-Armor (i failed to inquire about Fel Synergy, as I was in the middle of raiding by the time my ticket was serviced) .... I received this information last night. I hope it proves useful to someone out there.

Leshrac89 · 12/17/08, 10:50 AM

Hard to see but to summarise, The Egg of Mortal Essence's Proc off fel armor is not intended and they're working on fixing it.

• Nicarras · 12/17/08, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by merlins

Ok so I currently have these 3 trinkets, which 2 should I use as 2/13/56

[Sundial of the Exiled]
[The Egg of Mortal Essence]
[Item not found!]

Dont use the egg.

MagisterLudi · 12/17/08, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Leshrac89

Hard to see but to summarise, The Egg of Mortal Essence's Proc off fel armor is not intended and they're working on fixing it.

Yes, Leshrac89, thank your for the summary, and I do apologize for the fuzzy image. The Egg is not intended to proc off of Fel Armor, and it seems that Blizzard will correct this, if it has not been done already. Hang on to those badges!

Turbo Moses · 12/17/08, 5:04 PM

Because of how well damage scales, it still might be a half decent combo with sundial for locks who are hitcapped in raid settings (with a boomkin/spriest, and hit talents you only need 11%, which is easy to reach without using hit trinket) just because of the passive damage, but I definitely will be picking up a sundial as soon as I can now.

Bergtau · 12/17/08, 8:21 PM

Originally Posted by krilz

I'd like to throw in the Extract as well just to hear some opinions about it.

I'm going to use some baseline numbers for ACPS (Average Casts Per Second) in order to establish a rough representation of how well they scale by comparison to eachother.

[Sundial of the Exiled]: Static 84 Crit Rating + X Spell Power

ASPC - 1.5
590 / ((45 + (1.5 * (100 / 10))) / 10) = 98.333333333333333333333333333333

ASPC - 2.0
590 / ((45 + (2.0 * (100 / 10))) / 10) = 90.769230769230769230769230769231

ASPC - 2.5
590 / ((45 + (2.5 * (100 / 10))) / 10) = 84.285714285714285714285714285714

[Embrace of the Spider]: Static 98 Spell Power + X Haste Rating

ASPC - 1.5
505 / ((45 + (1.5 * (100 / 10))) / 10) = 84.166666666666666666666666666667

ASPC - 2.0
505 / ((45 + (2.0 * (100 / 10))) / 10) = 77.692307692307692307692307692308

ASPC - 2.5
505 / ((45 + (2.5 * (100 / 10))) / 10) = 72.142857142857142857142857142857

[Item not found!]: Static 95 Crit Rating + X DPS

SPDT = Second Per DoT Tick

DoTs - Curse of Agony, Immolate - 1.200 SPDT
1050 / (15 + (1.200 * (100 / 10))) = 38.888888888888888888888888888889

DoTs - Corruption, Curse of Agony, Immolate - 0.857 SPDT
1050 / (15 + (0.857 * (100 / 10))) = 44.548154433602036487059821807382

DoTs - Unstable Affliction, Siphon Life, Corruption, Curse of Agony, Immolate - 0.545 SPDT
1050 / (15 + (0.545 * (100 / 10))) = 51.344743276283618581907090464548

Now it's not completely accurate because I did not include any crit in Extract's calculations, nor did I include any % Shadow damage buffs/debuffs that you may have. That is up to you to do for yourself, it's too complicated to encompass in a single post because there are too many possibilities.

If you're going to do that, you might as well do the other calculations using my formula and inserting your own ACPS.

For the crit, multiply your DPS number by 2 / Crit%, as it gets a 2 multiplier from crits. It may or may not benefit from Chaotic Skyflare Diamond's +% crit damage bonus, but that will probably not make enough of a difference to make or break the trinket anyway.

For the shadow multipliers, just multiply the number by 1 + (Multiplier% / 100).

Last Edit: So I mixed up the way Extract procs, fixed it. Also mixed up "Average Casts Per Second" with "Average Seconds Per Cast". Fixed that too.

BeerBelly · 12/18/08, 5:46 AM

[Illustration of the Dragon Soul]

Supposedly this is nerfed beyond recognition on the PTR now. It's not only the spellpower being reduced, but also the chance to proc on any spell (only dmg/heal now) and furthermore locks are reporting the trinket not procing on dot application only on direct dmg spells. If this is true this brings the trinket down to the gutter.
Anyone on the PTR care to test it?

From wowhead:

This trinket was totally nerfed, as a warlock it no longer stacks when applying a dot. Only starts stacking when you do direct damage to a target, not to mention 180 sp, believe green trinkets give that much total.

kendra · 12/18/08, 6:12 AM

-deleted-

• Nicarras · 12/18/08, 5:49 PM

Originally Posted by BeerBelly

[Illustration of the Dragon Soul]

Supposedly this is nerfed beyond recognition on the PTR now. It's not only the spellpower being reduced, but also the chance to proc on any spell (only dmg/heal now) and furthermore locks are reporting the trinket not procing on dot application only on direct dmg spells. If this is true this brings the trinket down to the gutter.
Anyone on the PTR care to test it?

From wowhead:

Yes and it was posted as a bug on the PTR forums too and it seems they are aware of it.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> [Illustration of the Dragon Soul] bugged

BeerBelly · 12/19/08, 3:07 AM

Ok,

so considering the fact that Dragon Soul is getting nerfed to 180 spellpower stacked to max and that it only procs off offensive spells, would you still consider it top of the food chain?

My gut tells me that it still will be, cause you'll basically have 180 spellpower stacked for 95% of the fight.

Vieris · 12/20/08, 5:04 PM

Bergtau (and whoever else)

Reading over your calcs for the trinkets leads me to wonder if the Embrace is better than the Extract. A static 98 spell power with anywhere from 72-84 haste vs. 95 crit and 51 DPS? Did I read your calcs correctly? I can't get any functionality out of the Spreadsheet to look at it with my (t7.25) gear but just eyeballing it and using the old DPS values for combat ratings concerns me.

It seems a number of folks have dismissed the Embrace, and I just want to check before I move forward.
Sorry for the lack of numbers.

Bergtau · 12/21/08, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Vieris

Bergtau (and whoever else)

Reading over your calcs for the trinkets leads me to wonder if the Embrace is better than the Extract. A static 98 spell power with anywhere from 72-84 haste vs. 95 crit and 51 DPS? Did I read your calcs correctly? I can't get any functionality out of the Spreadsheet to look at it with my (t7.25) gear but just eyeballing it and using the old DPS values for combat ratings concerns me.

It seems a number of folks have dismissed the Embrace, and I just want to check before I move forward.
Sorry for the lack of numbers.

In order to get the true numbers for yourself, you need to plug in your own stats. The 51 for Extract doesn't include a couple things so it's higher in reality.

Overall, I still think Embrace wins thought.

Malevolence · 12/24/08, 6:19 AM

I'm currently using [Dying Curse] & [Sundial of the Exiled] this is working as an incredible combination at the moment, they proc off any spell cast & Often proc together.

It was quite funny watching [Dying Curse] proc whilst i was creating bandages.

I'm extremely interested in getting my hands on [Item not found!] or Embrace of the Dragonsoul

Bessa · 12/24/08, 6:40 AM

Originally Posted by Malevolence

I'm currently using [Dying Curse] & [Sundial of the Exiled] this is working as an incredible combination at the moment, they proc off any spell cast & Often proc together.

It was quite funny watching [Dying Curse] proc whilst i was creating bandages.

I'm extremely interested in getting my hands on [Item not found!] or Embrace of the Dragonsoul

Only problem i find with DC + Sundial, is you cant guarantee to have them up when you get Heroism, tho with them proccing 4 or 5 times a fight each, it more than makes up for it in the end.

Malevolence · 12/25/08, 4:58 AM

Originally Posted by Bessa

Only problem i find with DC + Sundial, is you cant guarantee to have them up when you get Heroism, tho with them proccing 4 or 5 times a fight each, it more than makes up for it in the end.

Yeah, it's true.

The best luck i've had was Eradication, Bloodlust Dying Curse & Sundial all procing at the same time (This was after 25% on loatheb) I instantly added Blood Fury into the mix. The Numbers were incredible sadly my WWS didn't record it properly.

turturin · 12/26/08, 5:40 PM

Originally Posted by supplicium

I was thinking

Illustrations
curse
Embrace
Sundial
Extract

Does that sound about right?

Yes. Though the analysis of the extract seems to be a mixed bag. Some suggests it's very awesome, whereas others suggest it lags behind the ilvl 200 trinkets (where you listed it).

I personally would like to see a full wws from someone with the extract. We've seen incomplete parses here and in certain cases, large assumptions asserted as fact. I'd like to see some raw data with a decent sample size (like a full naxx clear or something) rather than assumptive theory on this one.

A reflective case is lightweave embroidery. I saw/heard some argue that it was really no better than +23 haste and lots of math. I know from my wws/recount results and 3 weeks of parses that lightweave does 1.5 - 1.8% of my damage. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that:
a). This means its significantly better than 23 haste rating (~.65% haste)
b). Even if we can't spot a flaw in the theorycraft, empirical results are still better.

Yeoldelock · 12/27/08, 2:54 AM

Originally Posted by supplicium

I was thinking

Illustrations
curse
Embrace
Sundial
Extract

Does that sound about right?

Also, don't forget about Forge Ember: It has slightly worse stats than Sundial, but still a good amount of SP when it procs.

Warlocomotif · 12/27/08, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by turturin

Yes. Though the analysis of the extract seems to be a mixed bag. Some suggests it's very awesome, whereas others suggest it lags behind the ilvl 200 trinkets (where you listed it).

I personally would like to see a full wws from someone with the extract. We've seen incomplete parses here and in certain cases, large assumptions asserted as fact. I'd like to see some raw data with a decent sample size (like a full naxx clear or something) rather than assumptive theory on this one.

A reflective case is lightweave embroidery. I saw/heard some argue that it was really no better than +23 haste and lots of math. I know from my wws/recount results and 3 weeks of parses that lightweave does 1.5 - 1.8% of my damage. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that:
a). This means its significantly better than 23 haste rating (~.65% haste)
b). Even if we can't spot a flaw in the theorycraft, empirical results are still better.

I did a theorycraft myself; comparing lightweave from a patchwerk parse where it critted 60% of the time (Far above etiquette) with 23 haste. I ended up with it being a 13 dps increase, and if I recalced it's damage back to etiquete crit there was 2dps left.

The truth is however, that lightweave isn't bad because it isn't a dps increase; The reason Lightweave is bad is because other professions are so much better. I rerolled alchemy, 4 hour flasks is a money saving I could really use.