FallenPie

I have a question/request for those more intimate with simcraft and the like. In simply searching and scouring the forums I've been unable to locate a definitive answer on the subject specifically, so here goes:
It's been posted a number of times (and is actually my personal belief) that the 2/13/56 chaos bolt/BD/ISL spec is the technical champion among destro builds. I've come up against a lot of contention claiming that a variant which swaps the points in Soul Leech and Improved Soul Leech for Unholy Power performs better due to ISL being "a waste of talent points", "not worth it", etc.
Have there been any calcs performed weighing the two talent point placements? (SL + ISL vs. Unholy Power)
As I mentioned I have seen posts from some of the forum's most reliable regulars that "2/13/56 is the best", but most or all of these were in the context of comparing it with the demo hybrids (0/31/40, 0/41/30), and I could not concretely infer that the Unholy Power variant was among the contending specs.
Personally, I'm reasonably certain the saved LT GCD's from ISL outweigh the bonus to the imp's firebolts on any fight of reasonable length (which is to say nothing about fights where the imp is a dead man if not phased, but we'll leave that matter to the side,) but some hard numbers/simcraft spit-outs would be nice to back it up if anyone has the time and/or data handy. I'm quite sure the difference between the two is going to be moderate at best, so anecdotal answers one way or another aren't going to be of much help.
To those able to respond to my request, please excuse my brain-leeching.

 

Dirich

I was thinking about our priority list for the next patch.

Losing a backdraft is deneftly what I think is going to be the worst thing, and losing a chaosbolt is probably right next to it. So, by sheer feeling, I guess our priority will turn out to be:

1) Keep Immo up (needed for the Incinerates during backdraft, this is why it's 1st)
2) Conflagrate
3) Chaosbolt
4) Backdrafted Incinerate
5) Keep CoA up
6) Incinerate

If someone can help with the math, it's turning out to be a bit tricky for me 'cause of Molten Core and CoA.

 

krilz

I think you're right on the money with that one and once the patch goes live I'll update this thread.

If people have some math for a lot of aspects which they would like to contribute to the main post (or something that's already present that I've missed) then please let me know. I'm not really good at it and haven't got the time to do any testing myself (which is mainly the reason why I've gotten lazy and specced Affliction).

EDIT: I'm also starting to seriously doubt the value of ISL. In the beginning it was mostly good for keeping your Imp going wild from start to finish with never going OOM but if your Imp is fully buffed than you'll rarely see that happen (which I do as Affliction now, but I haven't got 2/2 Demonic Power which could be a factor). I'm however told that ISL is still very good for YOU since it means lesser Life Taps. How good is it really? Anyone got something?

 

Lrac

Here's a WWS post of a patchwerk kill where you can see mana gained from ISL. Looks pretty nice to me.

Wow Web Stats

 

Dirich

From the look of that you save 1.777 life taps every 117 seconds with your gear. Which means 1.777 GCDs.
We need to evaluate what those GCDs would be spent on. Of course the only thing we can spend them on, in a ideal enviroment, is our filler (we are keeping up dots and using cds everytime they are up even when we are specced for ISL. We need to consider the standard dps of our Incinerate (not modified by haste, since the GCD too is modified by haste), referring to #245 calculations we have 2955 average damage for 2500 spellpower (Shadow and Flame specced). We need to add the crit factor (let's say 30% crit chance with our usual 2.53 multiplier from talents + meta):

2955*(1+0.3*2.53) = 5197.845

So our Incinerate averages

5197.845 / 2.25 = 2310.2 dps

A GCD is 1.5, so, speccing ISL, you do 2310.2 * 1.5 = 3465.23 damage per GCD. And since you saved 1.777 GCDs without ISL someone with your int and spirit and with spellpower and crit I used, would have lost 3465.23 * 1.777 = 6157 damage.

Seems strange to use your int and spirit but not your spellpower and crit, but I don't know your stats raid buffed and the gear you have on armory may not be the one you used during the run.
If you could provide those numbers I could be more accurate, in this case I'm using an approximation by excess, so we are sure that ISL is worth less than what I find here.

On all the fight you did 527,525 damage, 6157 is 1,17% of such damage. And since we need 5 talent points to have 2/2 ISL, this means that everyone of those points is worth less than 0.234% dps.


Approximation is a bit strong, I know, but considering that if CoA is 10% of our dps than 2/2 imp coa means +1% to our dps, than I guess I have to accept the fact that ISL isn't worth it because of the 3 points we need to spend on Soul Leech to reach it, and would probably need some rework anyway.

EDIT: of course those numbers are even lower in a fight where you are forced to move, which means you can life tap without losing damage done.


To be honest if SL+ISL isn't worth, considering that Fire and brimstone doesn't seem so appealing after the patch (if my assumption that the best dps is to be backdrafting as much as we can is correct), than I guess an hybrid demo/destro is going to be more dps?

 

TangoDigital

I haven't got any parses since I don't have a full account and I'm playing affliction since about a month. However, I can just tell you flat out that you immediately notice the difference. Basically if you look through some of the parses you see just how much ISL returns. It's not trivial. You'll have to tap all of that mana back in if you spec out of soul leech. And you don't have improved lifetap so you'll tap a lot.

TangoDigital

 

Tinava

Just for reference, our last WWS with Patchwerk. I'm specced CB (current spec on armory).

I don't think the value of ISL can be disregarded, but this raid is kind of skewed too. In this raid, we had two spriests, a ret pally, and I *think* a surv hunter. I didn't lifetap ONCE during that fight. Not. Once.

 

Dirich

Tinava should life tap for 3225 with imp MotW and BoK. This means that

1) if he actually would have needed those 7466 mana provided by ISL (aka you ended at 0 mana)

than he would have needed to life tap 2.315 times during the fight.

By the same math of my previous post, but using the average damage for Tinava's Incinerate (I'm still a newbie at using wws, I didn't think about this previously): 4268/ 2.25 * 1.5 * 2.315 = 6587 damage lost. Which is 0.784% of the total damage he did.

So, for that fight, the 5 points for SL+ISL were worth 0.1568% dps increase each.

And again:

2) In mobility fights the drawbacks for life tapping are far less


I was deeply in love with ISL, but the more wws I see, the less I think it's usefull.

 

TangoDigital

My opinion was the exact opposite. I thought that ISL is useless based on the parses. However, when I specced into it I just realised that it makes the entire destruction tree a lot more efficient. It's the "gaming aspect" of it that makes it a viable dps talent. It's a "built in shadowpriest" so to speak.

TangoDigital

 

Dirich

Maybe it's because english is not my mothertongue, but I don't understand what you mean by "gaming aspect". My math could be wrong, but if it's right it shows that ISL+SL is kind of a waste of points.

 

amz370

English is my native tongue and I have no idea what he means either.

I guess what hes going after is it is a benefit all around in and out of raid, and while on paper it's not a dps increase it's a risk decrease, and there is a chance for it to return significantly more mana (though to look at RNG there is a chance to return less too) and there is always the risk that that HP lost from lifetap could be the difference between getting killed by something, I for instance have a problem with the initial aggro from Fel armor and fire elementals on Sarth 3 drakes, I often take a shot or 2 from them before our tank gets them off, just do to spawn position etc, which 99% of the time isn't an issue, but becomes an issue if there is 1 other damage input, so while the overall dps might be low for 5 pts, the arguement could be made that there is a chance it could be life saving and we all know any dps > dead dps.


But TBH like i said I have know Idea what he means, and If you are dieing from lifetap on most 25 man fights there's a problem.

 

subtletuna

Quick question here:..
What is the optimal hierarchy of stats when comparing gear? At the moment, i'm thinking of something like this:
Capped hit > Spell damage > haste > crit > int > spirit (though i know the last 2 dont really count)
Does that sound logical? Or am i a complete noob?

 

Nicarras

Sounds good, nice baselines for stat comparisons would be found here. SampleOutput - simulationcraft - Google Code

 

Trickykid

Priorities don't really work for gearing. I would use the spreadsheet or simulations to get numbers accurate to your specific spec and gear.

 

Dirich

What the previous said, and I'd add that what people usually report in this forums is that (for destro):

hit (untill cap) > spellpower > haste > crit > spirit > int

30% spirit becomes spellpower trough Fel armor, and life tap scales hugely with spirit.

 

Robi

So if SL is basically useless what about a build without it and instead more points in affliction for maximized hit there and 1 point in improved LT? Something like this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Even though i don't know if the points are better at improved corr or suppression as as a destru WL you only use 2 affli spells (curse and corr). There is also the possibility to put two points in unholy power instead. But again then you would have to take 2 useless talents (1 Point DE and 1 SL)

 

FalseMyrmidon

Regular Soul Leech is really nice for out of raids/parties when you're killing normal mobs. Makes it so you don't have to drink or life drain or anything since you regain all the health lost from life tap from soul leech. Granted it does very little for you in raids so unless that's what he talking about then your guess is as good as mine.

 

krilz

You don't use Corruption so basically you're just taking Suppression for COA. And the DPS loss isn't that great if you're not hitcapped with Affliction-spells as Destruction.

And I would've gone with Unholy Power honestly. Sure, SL and FD is pretty useless but overall it's better than the Affliction ones.

 

Fairchild7102

Just for reference, our last WWS with Patchwerk. I'm specced CB (current spec on armory).

Wow Web Stats

I also really think ISL is pretty imba. I ended up lifetapping once and probably could have cut that out (not positive), the other destro lock in raid which I believe was spec'd identical to myself did not tap once per the parse. Obviously on longer fights you will have to tap, but you will end up having to tap much less.

glyphs used: immo, coa, imp

rotation used: coa, cb, immo, incin till lower than 5s on immo (the less time left on it the better), then with the backdraft charges use either immo + inc x2 or CB + immo + inc, etc...

Oh yeah, also used a potion of speed during heroism

 

Dirich

Not even needed to do the math anymore. ISL is providing 1.5-2 life taps per fight. Negligible bonus for 5 points. I mean, the point with glyph of coa not being an augment in dps was because it provided 1 GCD every 197 seconds or something like that. We are talking about more or less the same magnitude of dps increase... for FIVE talent points.
It's fun to have, nice in pvp and grinding, but honestly speaking, not worth it for a dps build in raid enviroment.
And all this of course BEFORE even starting to talk about how you can life tap while you can't dps during movement fights.

To be honest the best hybrid to aim to is quite easyly destro/demo.

Removing F&B and ISL+SL means not speccing into CB, which is an awesome spell but makes our "rotations" harder, so I'll cry for the animation but will find a way to spend points better. Empowered imp is a 15% increase on 10% of our dps, which turns out to be a 1.5% increase for 3 points (without considering the 20% crit chance for one cast we get if the imp crits, and mine crits in 5% of the cases, so not a big buff).
If we remove Empowered imp we are left with a spec in destro up to backdraft, which is indeed the best part of the spec dps wise (I THINK). On the other side we have points to spec into Master Demonologist and Master Conjuror.

Master Demonologist = +1% fire damage and +1% crit for us
Master Conjuror = +30% on our firestone (which is a buff for crit but even more a +1% damage to our direct spells)

Master Demonologist will affect 85% of personal dps (10% is imp, 5% is coa) which is a 2.55% damage increase for 3 points. And 2.55 / 3 = 0.85% per point! Up to now this is the highest I've seen, and it doesn't include the 1% crit we get from evey point.

Basically the spec turns out to be this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

EDIT: of course the percentages will change a bit since the numbers I used are for a spec a bit different when I calculated values for Master Demo, it was just to show that it could be an interesting alternative.

 

Spellia

Admirable dps, but with a kill time of less than 2 minutes, it definitely kicks everyone's dps higher. Still, to kill this fast, your raid has quite insane dps. Congrats.

So far I have tested the new CB spec with the new Glyph of conflag and have noticed about 300-500 dps increase self buffed, on boss dummies. I suspect once I find a proper rotation and get used to it, I will get 500-600 more dps than live. I just feel very akward atm, and rotation is tricky to try and not get all your CD off at the same time.

Anyone else tried it?

 

Fairchild7102

For sure the higher your raid dps the higher your personal dps can be, you still have to do your part though (can't just faceroll and expect high dps). I'd love to test out the new conflag glyph on the PTR but just don't have any of the glyphs made and none of them are available on the AH. Did they ever implement purchasable glyphs on the PTR or was that just beta?

 

TangoDigital

It is actually quite simple. ISL enhances your oom time substantially. This can be gamed to a dps gain in the dynamic environment that is WoW. It's just like a shadowpriest.

If lock A has to tap just a few seconds before the Boss changes phases, while lock B can keep dpsing because he hasn't gone oom due to ISL, then that will be a dps gain for him on every single phase. In fights like Patchwerk that might not play much of a role. However, you can argue and suspect that we do and will see a lot more fights where oom time actually does play a role and those with less time will lose some dps to fight dynamics. Considering AoE heals are also getting some nerfs, sometimes you just can't afford to tap whenever you want. In those situations, ISL can not only be a lifesaver but a dps gain. Personally, I suspect this will become much more pronounced even with newer, harder raid instances.

TangoDigital

 

Dirich

Seriously... have you took the time to read my post before answering?
I wrote some math that showed how ISL is awarding really few dps. If you see the WWS and the posts where I did the math on them you'll see that ISL saves 1.5-2 life tap per fight, with fights of 2.5-3.5 minutes. And we are talking of Petch, if you are forced to move even once every minute you can easyly Life tap without losing dps time (since you wouldn't be able to dps anyway while moving). All of this at the price of 5 talent points (since you need 3/3 SL to spec 2/2 ISL).

In my posts I simply calculated how much percentage of your dps the GCDs you get out of ISL (trough the non-need of life tapping) can give you. Than I gave you the %dps increase per point.

Sorry but, you answered "ISL is usefull since it gives a lot of dps because you don't life tap" to a post saying "if this counts are correct than the dps increase you get from ISL(+SL) trough the non-life tapping is miserable".


EDIT: of course it's value is much higher if you have no Replenishment and JoW awarding you mana. From the number I've seen it rules when you are unbuffed. So ISL+SL if you are in solo is fine, in 5 man depends really on the dps of your group I guess, but in raid it's really not that effective provided your raid provides you with Replenishment and JoW (and it should).

 

Faldrath

Dirich, a question: when comparing your proposed hybrid spec against a CB one, did you use CB as it is in live or taking into account the expected 3.0.8 buff?