i really do not think that it's worth speccing into chaosbolt instead of master demonologist. MD is 3% more crit and damage for firespells and you get DS for fights where pet dies easily (e.g. saphi, kel, 4H or sath), where as with chaosbolt spec you get ISL (which is quite...bad for 5 points) and emp imp (haven't got any numbers here but still don't think it's that good). IF you could actually use the f&b procs (sf without soulshards, chaosbolt lower cd, f&b change (whatever, maybe useable earlier or something)) then 2/13/56 would be worthwhile. But with F&B just being crap (like already mentioned very early on the WotLK beta forums by the way) 0/28/43 just seems to be the winner.

I don't think Aff is a big enough DPS increase to be worthwhile that low in the tree. I think you're right it's better to to max Emp. Imp than to get Shadowfury and max Imp Soul Leech.

Is adding +15% of your spellpower to Immolate really that much damage? Say you had 2000 spell damage, would it only add 300 damage to immolate over 15 seconds? It looks like it adds it as flat damage from the wording of the talent (although I could be misunderstanding it).

Versus +20% Firebolt damage from the imp. I'd have to say Unholy Power is probably better but that's without doing the math.

The values of ISL, as previously said, is low when we have replenishment + jow. Longer fights makes it better of course, since it saves more GCDs, but movement fights makes it worst.
All in all in a raid setting it usually doesn't give a lot. And mind, I didn't use some math to foresee, I used math to analyze data. So, provided that my math isn't wrong, there's no possible counter argument like "math isn't perfect to evaluate what will happen when actually playing". That could be an argument when using math to "foresee" dps.
That's the reason why I asked for the WWS, and indeed my counts are based on WWS (I had a small sample, that's the only flaw).

Regarding F&B:
Of course the +25% crit conflag happens once every 3 conflag, and only if we happen to cast it in the 3/5 final part of the 5 second window. Assuming we have delays due to lag "noise", cast time modification due to haste which doesn't match well with cds on abilities, etc, we can be sure we'll be randomly moving in the 5 second window during all the fight.
This means:

1) We'll sometimes miss the chance to get the +25% bonus to conflag (this part takes off part of the randomness, to use some "precise" math requires for a lot of time, and a raw evaluation by approximation should be enough to define the worth of F&B over ISL)
2) Of our 1/3 conflagrates, only 3/5 will proc the bonus (minus those in point 1)

+25% * 1/3 * 3/5 - "check point 1" = a bit less than +5% crit chance per 5 points F&B = 1 F&B provides a bit less than +1% crit chance on conflag
Of course the value fluctuates depending on the random factors. The value I've found is, also, dependant on how I modeled the random factors, which could not be verified (I did so in order to avoid too much probability theory). The theorical maximum is 5/3% crit chance increase per talent point.

This is by far the less part of the talent.

Considering we'll be using the immo glyph thanks to the conflag glyph, we have +20% damage on the ticks (and they receive the bonus from F&B too and are the most part of the damage from this spell, which accounts for a good part of our dps).
Math should be done to quantify, but by the feeling of those numbers I would bet that to reach CB the best path is F&B rather than ISL+SL.


Like Robi reminded, the debate should probably be more about if it's worth to go up to CB, which means taking F&B (or ISL if you still doesn't belive the math), or to try a backdraft/master demonologist build.

EDIT: I added some more info regarding the randomness.

Dirch I think you are right on track, we need to be analyzing whether the final 6 points in Destro (even 9 maybe removing emp imp) are better than flooding demo with those points.

something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft could potentially be more bang for the buck then emp imp and CB+F&B.

That spec is really similar to the one I posted in the previous page, apart for me choosing 2/2 imp HS + 3/5 DE. But after a post I read in page 12, I think, maybe from robi (not sure), I'm leaning toward switching 1 point to Demonic Sacrifice, for those fights where the imp can only be a static buff since switching out of phase shift means sure death. The best part is that we can do so by sacrificing 1 point from DE or Master Summoner, which results in no dps loss for the spec. I'd probably take that point off DE, since Master Summoner + Feldom means a really low dps time lost during a fight in which accidentally our fragile imp dies. And it's not like that +2% is life saver when hit by a boss.

But, anyway, before polishing the spec, it would be probably worth to try it in a raid on ptr and than analyze the wws (or do it on live when 3.0.8 will finally be out). I tend to digress over small details sometimes :/

Right now the MD/Backdraft is probably better for overall DPS, but the big question is, will the changes to the Conflaguration Glyph, change to Chaos Bolt's damage (coefficient and range), along with Empowered Imp (not even going to debate between ISL and F&B, given the coming change to the Conflaguration Glyph and ISL will probably be better than F&B as noted earlier) be enough to boost damage over MD/Backdraft or not.

He's referring to Fire & Brimstone not improved immolate.

To add to the discussion, I think demonic sacrifice is a very useful talent for pet unfriendly fights (Sarth 3D). If Doomguard & Infernal are indeed getting buffed then it makes the talent even more attractive.

Possibly, maybe something along the lines of: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft. Can move points around between DE and other talents in Tier 1 and 2 in Demonology and move a point in Intensity around to something else if it looks better.

If you are losing your pet on sarth, your are doing something very poorly if you run an imp. Do the following

A) Run your pet on passive

B) make the following macro
C) PAY ATTENTION.

TBH you shouldn't loose your pet if you follow by a simple rule, IF you have to move, so does your pet.

On fights where there is significant AoE damage, healers are likely to prioritize players over pets. It's not a matter of keeping imps out of fire walls or void zones as much as them catching heals in time. Having a way to get a DPS increase out of the pet-slot without needing to keep him alive is still handy for some fights (and as the poster you quoted mentioned, very nice with infernal/doomguard on top of a DS).

Yea TBH DS is going to be a much bigger option after the patch, as it is right now CoH and Wild Growth keep my pet alive, I doubt any healer is sitting around and saying "OH GOD NOT RULGUP!!!" (my imps name, btw..after 4 years I'd really like a new pet name).

Smart heals keep my pet alive, not me, the only fights I really keep an I on my pet HP wise is Saph when he pops into the air, less healing, more dmg going around.

Once the patch comes out, I am really really going to have to watch my pet more, it's a shame, pets finally got to a place where they were safe for most fights and do to the silly Over powered factor of aoe heals, their life is going to be a lot harder to maintain.

I'd like to test the feeling of 0/28/43 before 3.08 (2nd half of Naxx and Sarth 3D) so I'm looking for some ideas to improve my Conflagrate reactions.

I need a Button (like Ghost Pulse) or a sound effect (like SCT mods or MSBT) popping up/playing as soon as Immolate
a) ticks the 4th time or
b) has a duration of 3 seconds or less.

Playing around with Bar Timer addons like Forte or Dotimer didn't come close to my preferred announcements - I just need the information as soon as the best conflagrate window opens up, not a complete Immolate bar.

Will the imp not just stand there and keep dps'ing? He doesn't move back to your side unless you put him on follow again, and will only move by himself if his target goes out of range or dies. I am confused as to how the macro helps.

I keep my imp on defensive and keybind pet follow to one of the side buttons on my mouse. Then, just follow the "If you move, your pet moves" rule, and spam that keybind when you're moving.

Problem being you have to over extend your moving time to compensate for the imp being 5yds behind as usual, wastes more time, i usually just sacrifice it, but im unsure as to wether sacrificing is more dps than keeping it phased. Spreadsheet says phased is worth 30 dps more then saccing, not to mention the health gain.

It's pretty close, if all your fire spells were crittable, 5% damage and 5% crit would be better (both due to multiplying as well as the crit meta) Also if you have DK there's a tiny amount of spell power buff. However immolate's DoT (in my last parse was 7% of my total damage) can't crit. If you know you will have a GCD to spare on fights where he can die (and don't have doomguard available), keeping him phased gives you the option of using his DPS as well. At the end of that burn period you can sac him and summon an inferno or just sit with the 10% buff.

Hi there, new here and i must say i'm enjoying these forums' info a lot.

first to add a nice way of pet control, I know I found a nice way of controlling my imp by using my 4th & 5th mouse buttons for attack/follow - just remember to do it whenever u move.

and one thing i'd like to ask - I'm currently 'exploring' affliction and I can really see the dps potential of that build, but i'm still a destro 'fan'..
was specced 0/20/51 'till now and my dps on patchwerk (seems that's the benchmark) was around 4.2k
the 3.08 changes look promising for destro, but i've tried the PTR with the Conf. glyph, and i don't really see a dps increase from before.

any consensus about a new rotation? do we just use Conf whenever it's up? after trying that i found it doesn't really allow maximizing backdraft efficiency, i still have to cast immo while it's up every 2nd rotation or so..
any thoughts ?

Quick question here... What is better DPS for a desto lock in AoE raid situations, rain of fire, or SoC?

RoF is better to use. You don't have to wait for the proc (it's instant), like SoC it can crit, it costs less mana, and your +fire talents make it about equal in DPS if not better.

Also, it builds up aggro smoother and if you see some mobs are close to threat cap you can always stop chanelling.
But the most major change made is indeed RoF ability to crit which puts it on par with SoC.

I have a question regarding 31/0/40 builds:

Are they viable?

Something like this:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Has anybody tried this?

I tried a SB-spam build similar to yours a month ago or so (search my posts if you're interested), and it simply couldn't keep up with 0/31/40. The DoTs aren't buffed enough to compensate for the imp's lower DPS, and the Shadow Bolts weren't really hitting harder than Incinerates with full Emberstorm and Master Demonologist (and they took longer to cast too).

(that being said, now I'm curious again about it, and since my gear has improved a fair bit, maybe I'll give it another whirl)