The Mage Equivalent: The Destruction Warlock - Page 21

Warlocomotif · 01/23/09, 1:46 PM

The main eason I dislike the above (Belific), is the reliance on a pet that simply wont be there most of the time. It does look good on patchwerk, but it wouldn't be worth while in any type of progress raid (well, maybe with dual specs).

Yoblad · 01/23/09, 2:14 PM

The only encounter I have trouble keeping him alive on is Sarth with 3 drakes. I usually let him go nuts while we burn down Tenebron. After that the hit to DPS if he dies isn't a gamebreaker. I could probably pay more attention and macro attack/passive but....meh

Belific · 01/23/09, 2:28 PM

Well that's the thing My pet never dies in Sarth+3 unless we call it a wipe.. I just keep it on passive and ctrl1 to attack and ctrl 2 to bring him to me, its not rocket science.

WOTLK brought back pets... and they should never die period.Unless you are pvping in which case you are DOOMED.

yes I wont use doomguard for most of the fights but the dps my imp gives is around 700 fully raid buffed compared to the 1k of the dooomguard besides Emp imp would also take effect giving me more crit although I'm always at around 60-65% crit raiting in boss fights.

I'm not sure what dual specs has to do with this... I plan on staying deep destro for ever!

Dirich · 01/23/09, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by Belific

- I use the most standard deep destro build, with 1/2 Intensity and 2/2 Destro Reach, and I used a felguard during petch -

Either there some joke I fail to see or I don't get your post at all.

The build is the same old thing that has been deeply analyzed in the past pages.

You had the idea to use the doomguard for the fight. It's a good idea. But that's not exactly a plus of "your build". Even more, your dps on petch isn't "your build's dps", for the simple reason that you can't do the doomguard trick on every boss fight, unless I'm unaware of the removal of the 1h CD from the ritual, but in that case the points to improve the imp are kind of wasted.
I can settle for a "trick" that can't be used on every fight (trashes) if it at least can be used on every bossfight. Repetitions after wipes included.

I'd like to go on, but I can't. Everytime I try to write something more I start talking about specs. But you didn't provide anything new to talk about in this field. You just pointed out at a useful tool that seemed a bit forgotten.
Thanks for remembering us we have Ritual of Doom.

Belific · 01/23/09, 3:17 PM

First of all.. Did I say I was giving Destruction Warlocks a WHOLE new way of being destro? NO. I just used a doomguard to try and get high dps for WMO... I know ther eis a 1 Hour CD on The ritual, When did I ever say I use a doomguard every single boss fight? Keep in mind however that when I dont use a doomguard I use an Imp, So when im doing Sartharion thats who I use. Aslo, my post was not to remind people of a nice little trick called a Ritual of Doom.
Second, I was giving more supporting information to anyone who wants to pick destro and why they should do what I do. why you seem to be trolling my post dosent really make any sense, In one part though It's true we have not given much "Newer" support for this build other then the new buffs we got.

krilz · 01/23/09, 3:31 PM

Originally Posted by Belific

Second, I was giving more supporting information to anyone who wants to pick destro and why they should do what I do.

That's the what first post is for and might be what people reacted over, you were mentioning alot of things already stated.

Belific · 01/23/09, 4:03 PM

Once again, I was only backing you up. I threw down the WMO so people can see how viable it is. Quit making it seem like im doing something wrong here.

Warlocomotif · 01/23/09, 4:58 PM

Originally Posted by krilz

The front page is now updated and the very subjected you discussed is there. The only thing I'm unsure of is if CB has a higher DPCT than Immo. If it doesn't, then Immo and Conf will have a higher priority than CB.

I went through it again, and here's a few notes:

Instead try to cast only CB and IN during BD since the two benefits the most of the haste increase. As stated above, if IM is already on the target, then no need to cast it, otherwise always cast IM before any IN as it increases your overall DPS.

It should probably be noted that it's okay to refresh CoA/CR during backdraft, due to the fact that neither of the 2 consumes BD charges.

Also the glyph of immolate quote should be updated to reflect the change to Glypg of CF.

If you're going with a typical deep Destruction-spec then the best glyphs as of now are CF, IM and Imp or CoA. A rule of thumb is if you have ICoA then go for that glyph. If you have all the Imp enhancing talents such as Improved Imp, Empowered Imp, Demonic Power and maybe even Unholy Power, go for that. If you have them all, then they're on pretty much even level. It's mostly just a matter of preference though.

I really don't think this is still up to date, I did some sloppy napkinmath on the subject, and Glyph of CoA and Glyph of Imp were both beating Glyph of Immo. The napkin math was done for 0/20/51 spec-- but glyph of imp was worth pretty much twice as much as glyph of Immolate.

See this thread for the sloppy napkinmath:
Warlock WWS Help and Analysis

I realise it's sloppy, but the question should really be Glyph of CoA vs Glyph of Immolate.

Paroxys · 01/23/09, 9:00 PM

Sorry, but your CoA Glyph maths is way out.

You can't say:

As for Glyph of CoA, your CoA does an average 537 per tick vs my average 483. Thats 27 DPS assuming 100% uptime.

Because you're not using exactly the same gear.

If you scroll back through this thread, you'll see maths stating that the two extra high-damage ticks of CoA are worth a static 15.6 dps not counting the GCD saving.

I guess that should also take uptime into account? So 15.6*0.85 = 13.26 dps.

It's also unreasonable to base to GCD-saving DPS gain on your average DPS, as a percentage of that DPS will be coming from DoTs which will be ticking whether you save a GCD or not.

It's more accurate to use 1.1995 / (2.25 / (1.08 + (600/32.79/100))) = 0.6733 * average Incinerate value.

From your WWS, Total incinerate damage / number of incinerates cast
527,287 / 75 = 7030.493

0.6733 * 7030.493 = 4733.87 damage.

Then, using your formula at the bottom of the post to add uptime into the equation:

(4733.87/85*72)/170=23.58 dps

Making the total value of the glyph ~36.7 dps... feel free to point out any errors, I'm not sure about the 15.6dps being affected by uptime but my logic says it should be. This is also assuming that you chain cast perfectly, hence making 100% use of the saved GCD.

Warlocomotif · 01/23/09, 9:10 PM

Because you're not using exactly the same gear.

I knew at that point already it was a terrible way of doing it- it was not really meant to be a fully accurate theorycraft. Also part of the rest was covered in a later post. I wasn't aware of the static 15.6 dps, i'll check that out.

Either way, that outs Glyph of Immo and Glyph of CoA terribly close together. Probably in favor of immolate if you're using 2/13/56- and it appears to be about 1 dps in favor of CoA for 0/20/51. The later calculation I did for Glyph of CoA's additional average damage was based on a blue post stating the extra ticks would do 33% more damage.

Still, the point stands that glyph of Imp should definitely be taken, and the question is really CoA vs Immo. I'm leaning towards CoA- for the most part because the longer duration means the rotation becomes a tiny bit easier to manage.

Paroxys · 01/23/09, 9:23 PM

Personally I'm going to stick with Glyph of Immolate - not only does it scale with spellpower (whereas the static part of the CoA glyph does not), I don't really see one saved GCD every 168 seconds to be noteworthy as 'simplifying' the rotation.

And yes, it shouldn't even be debated whether Glyph of Imp is worth it - ~60+ dps is clearly better than both Immolate and CoA.

Dhrizzle · 01/23/09, 9:41 PM

With the CoA and Immolate glyphs so closely tied it feels like time to remind us all that Immolate's glyph is a double edged sword.

Glyph of Immolate
Increases the periodic damage of your Immolate by 20% but decreases its initial damage by 10%.

So not only does CoA give the same benefits on longer fights and the simpler rotation (roughly 2 chaos bolts to each curse depending on haste), by leaving out the Immolate glyph we gain a tiny bit of burst for trash, soloing and PvP.

Warlocomotif · 01/23/09, 10:33 PM

I just checked the glyphs thread, and it should be noted that the static 15.6 DPS assumes an affliction specced lock(!), for destruction it would be closer to 12 or 13.

I decided to check this out myself (0/20/51):

Fel Armor, Normal gear
Tick 01 - 04: 286
Tick 05 - 08: 358.5
Tick 09 - 12: 431
Tick 03 - 14: 503.5
Total/Average Before: 4302/358.5
Total/Avergae After: 5309/379.2
Average Difference: 20.7
DPS Difference: 10.35

Unbuffed, Normal gear
Tick 01 - 04: 254
Tick 05 - 08: 326.5
Tick 09 - 12: 399
Tick 13 - 14: 471.5
Total/Average Before: 3918/326.5
Total/Avergae After: 4861/347.2
Average Difference: 20.7
DPS Difference: 10.35

Unbuffed, Most gear unequiped
Tick 01 - 04: 149
Tick 05 - 08: 222
Tick 09 - 12: 294
Tick 13 - 14: 367
Total/Average Before: 2660/221.7
Total/Avergae After: 3394/242.4
Average Difference: 20.7
DPS Difference: 10.35

It should be noted that this is without any debuffs or buffs, which basically means we're missing the following modifiers:
13% CoE/Ebon Plaguebringer/Earth and Moon
3% Ferocious Inspiration

Against a raidboss however, we'd also suffer roughly 4% from partial resists.
Final result: 10.35 * 1.13 * 1.03 *0.96 = 11.56 DPS.
Or, 12.72 if you're 2/13/56

Adding these numbers into the equation Glyph of Immolate ends up on top of Glyph of CoA. However realistically the 2 are so close that for the most part, it's a matter of preference. It however should be noted that glyph of Immolate scales a lot better.

[edit] CoA uptime still needs to be factored in aswell. Taking my previously posted WWS as source for this:
11.56 / (170 / 2) * 72 = 9.792. (10.77 for 2/13/56) That's terible.

After adding the damage gained from the reduced time spent casting CoA (23.58), we get to a total of 33.4 DPS.

Considering that Glyph of Immolate scales, it's probably the better option. However since it's a difference of roughly 2dps, I'll try glyph of CoA next raid just in case.

Paroxys · 01/24/09, 1:12 AM

Hm, that's interesting. I thought it said that the difference is 15.6 independent of ANY scaling factors such as talents, debuffs, gear (which your data shows, since the DPS gain is 10.35 each time), etc.

If the difference doesn't scale with gear why should it scale with talents, let alone debuffs?

Faldrath · 01/24/09, 2:47 AM

Tonight I played around with a hybrid 0/40/31 spec, and the results were interesting (I know it's technically more demo than destro, but since the playstyle is much closer to destro's, I chose to post here). It is very simple to play (CoA, Corr, Immo, Inc spam, Demonic Empowerment when it's up) and takes pretty much all good buffs from the Demo tree instead of Shadow and Flame. Demonic Knowledge is significantly stronger now that pets received a huge stamina boost, and it gains 2% Fire damage and %10 crit in comparison with the 0/28/43 hybrid, forfeiting Conflag+Backdraft.

Patch WWS

Notes on the Patch data: it was a sloppy kill, we got a tank killed early which resulted in a lot of melee deaths, and thus, a much longer kill than normal. So while absolute numbers aren't great, relative ones are encouraging. I was flasked, but I did not use infernal/doomguard, nor took a potion. I also forgot to pop Demonic Empowerment.

In the rest of the instance results were satisfactory. The spec suffered on Sapphiron because I decided to sacrifice the imp (in hindsight, I should have just kept it phased), but did very well in Kel'Thuzad and Gluth. Incidentally, I also found out that if you manage to life tap *exactly* as Gluth casts Decimate, you will kill yourself in a fairly amusing way.

I'll try it on Sartharion+3 later in the week and see how it goes.

• Zakalwe · 01/24/09, 4:34 AM

Originally Posted by Paroxys

If the difference doesn't scale with gear why should it scale with talents, let alone debuffs?

Because that's how it works. The equation is for virtually any spell is, roughly:
(Base damage + Gear*Coefficient) * Talents * Debuffs

Since the glyph increases the base damage, it does not scale with gear, because gear is *added* onto the base damage.

Lominen · 01/24/09, 9:24 AM

Originally Posted by Faldrath

Incidentally, I also found out that if you manage to life tap *exactly* as Gluth casts Decimate, you will kill yourself in a fairly amusing way.

Should be noted that fellow raiders might not find this quite as amusing, when it turns out to be that one lifetap that destroy your attempt for The Immortal :/

Asmodaeus · 01/24/09, 11:33 AM

OK, so turning back to the discussion of keeping Conflag on CD vs casting 1 Conflag per Immo, I've been playing around with Simcraft in order to check what the difference might look like.

Here is a DPS chart from Simcraft with some numbers (with 10K iterations):

I added the profiles Warlock_noSoulFire_CBonCD, Warlock_noSoulFire_CBnoBD and Warlock_noSoulFire_CBnoBD_1CF.
The remaining profiles are from Simcraft. I kept every thing as it comes (same gear, same talents). I only changed the action lists.

These added profiles differ from the default profile that comes with Simcraft for Destro (Warlock_2_13_56) in the following (caveat: this makes none of them directly comparable to Simcraft's default profile, they can only be compared to each other):
- none of them uses Soul Fire,
- they all use Corruption (this is why you see a DPS increase for some of them over the default profile, despite not Backdrafting Soul Fires during Heroism).

Warlock_noSoulFire_CBonCD tries to use Chaos Bolt whenever ready:

actions+=/chaos_bolt/incinerate,backdraft=1/curse_of_agony/immolate/conflagrate/corruption/incinerate/life_tap

(Simcraft's default profile tries to always Backdraft Chaos Bolts)

Warlock_noSoulFire_CBnoBD tries to never Backdraft Chaos Bolts:

actions+=/incinerate,backdraft=1/chaos_bolt/curse_of_agony/immolate/conflagrate/corruption/incinerate/life_tap

The motivation for not Backdrafting CB is that if you compare a sequence like:
Conflag > Chaos Bolt > Incinerate > Incinerate > Incinerate

to a sequence like:
Chaos Bolt > Conflag > Incinerate > Incinerate > Incinerate

they deal exactly the same damage (1 Conflag, 1 CB and 3xIncinerate) but the second one is very slightly faster (2 + 1.5 + 3 * 1.575 = 8.225 secs) than the first (1.5 + 1.4 + 2 * 1.575 + 2.25 = 8.3 secs). However, it results in fewer CBs cast per fight (since you would delay CBs if the CD comes up while you're under Backdraft).
Looking at Simcraft's txt file output, Warlock_noSoulFire_CBonCD casts on average 20.6 CBs per fight, and Warlock_noSoulFire_CBnoBD casts 18.9. The DPS is 5224 vs 5216.

The third profile, Warlock_noSoulFire_CBnoBD_1Cf, tries to approximate a Warlock that always casts Immo > Chaos Bolt > Conflagrate.
Note that it is an approximation, as I can't seem to have Simcraft behave like this.

The profile uses this action list:

actions+=/incinerate,backdraft=1/chaos_bolt/curse_of_agony/immolate/conflagrate,ticks_lost=3/corruption/incinerate/life_tap

Note the ticks_lost=3 part. This is a hack intended to make only 1 Conflag per Immo.
I believe it means "cast Conflag only if there are 3 ticks left on Immo (or less)", but please correct me if I'm wrong, because I got this by looking at the source code.
Looking at the txt file output of Simcraft, it seems to be a decent approximation:

    chaos_bolt            Count= 17.5|16.4sec  DPE=9193|11%  DPET=5350  DPR=35.0  Miss=0.0%  Hit=6001  CritHit=12567|13193|48.6%
    conflagrate           Count= 16.6|16.8sec  DPE=4643| 5%  DPET=3226  DPR=10.3  Miss=0.0%  Hit=3064  CritHit=6406|6654|47.3%
    corruption            Count= 14.5|19.9sec  DPE=4713| 5%  DPET=3281  DPR= 8.7  Miss=3.0%  Tick=898
    curse_of_agony        Count=  9.9|29.4sec  DPE=7116| 5%  DPET=4955  DPR=18.4  Miss=3.0%  Tick=584
    immolate              Count= 18.1|15.8sec  DPE=8420|11%  DPET=6237  DPR=13.2  Miss=0.0%  Hit=2163  CritHit=4524|4740|46.7%  Tick=1160
    incinerate            Count= 97.7| 2.8sec  DPE=7644|52%  DPET=4620  DPR=14.6  Miss=0.0%  Hit=4830  CritHit=10097|10579|53.4%
   imp
    fire_bolt             Count=146.3| 1.9sec  DPE=1140|12%  DPET= 592  DPR= 1.$  Miss=3.0%  Hit=1056  CritHit=1584|1606|22.0%

So, on average 17.5 CBs per fight, 16.6 Conflags and 18.1 Immolates.
It's only an approximation, as I wanted to see what happened if one casts only 1 Conflag per Immo, but note that this is actually a bit worse than what I wanted to check (we get fewer CBs and Conflags than Immos, what I'm trying to approximate is the situation when you cast the exact same number of them).
Also note the crit chance for Conflag and CB, that indicates that Conflag in not benefitting from F&B, which is also what would happen in an Immo > CB > Conflag sequence.

By comparison, the other profiles have a much higher number of Conflags per Immolates. Example for Warlock_noSoulFire_CBnoBD:

    chaos_bolt            Count= 18.9|15.3sec  DPE=9237|12%  DPET=5366  DPR=35.2  Miss=0.0%  Hit=6012  CritHit=12592|13193|49.0%
    conflagrate           Count= 23.6|12.0sec  DPE=4865| 8%  DPET=3387  DPR=10.8  Miss=0.0%  Hit=3049  CritHit=6380|6654|54.5%
    corruption            Count= 12.6|22.3sec  DPE=4746| 4%  DPET=3309  DPR= 8.8  Miss=2.9%  Tick=897
    curse_of_agony        Count= 10.6|27.9sec  DPE=7006| 5%  DPET=4870  DPR=18.1  Miss=2.9%  Tick=584
    immolate              Count= 17.0|16.8sec  DPE=8431|10%  DPET=6233  DPR=13.2  Miss=0.0%  Hit=2167  CritHit=4534|4740|46.3%  Tick=1163
    incinerate            Count= 98.3| 2.8sec  DPE=7559|50%  DPET=4884  DPR=14.4  Miss=0.0%  Hit=4784  CritHit=10009|10579|53.1%
   imp
    fire_bolt             Count=146.3| 1.9sec  DPE=1141|11%  DPET= 592  DPR= 1.$  Miss=2.9%  Hit=1056  CritHit=1584|1606|22.0%

If these results are correct, then a rotation where you always keep the cooldowns for Immolate (looking at dots as essentially single target cooldowns), Chaos Bolt and Conflagrate together (i.e. always doing Immo > CB > Conflag) would produce results similar to what we see for the third profile.
Comparing the DPS of Warlock_noSoulFire_CBnoBD_1Cf (5096) to the DPS of Warlock_noSoulFire_CBonCD (5224), that keeps both CB and Conflag on cooldown, the difference is around 2.5%.

So the questions now are: a) is human error (higher chances of messing up your rotation with the higher DPS profile) worth 2.5% damage? b) what about the delay problem with Immo > Conflag mentioned several times in the posts above, which a Warlock that always casts Immo > CB > Conflag is guaranteed never to have?

Bessa · 01/24/09, 1:52 PM

Originally Posted by Belific

Alright... Here is my new spec which has been pretty famous recently with the new backdraft buff,emberstorm buff, Chaos bolt buff and what. I'm not going to get into specifics even though this is EJ but The only other competing spec is affliction and this is a destruction thread. I have tried going 0/41/30 and It does not scale high enough as Deep destro.
This is my current spec http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...h=020412000000

The reason I choose this is basic, I dont use CORR anymore just coa to proc MC since its alot more efficient now.

My dps rotation is COA->CB->Immo->Conflag->Incinx3 This rotation however changes as the fight goes on ..Why? because SB and conflag have different CD's so It ends up being X2 Conflags per Immolate and CB used every time its up no matter what...The more chaos bolts you shoot the more dps you get.

Patchwerk fight--you can check other fights if you want but Patchwerk is a good boss to compare dps with.

WoW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!

I used a fully buffed doomguard which was probably why I got so high in dps..I did not use infernal I will use it next week and compare.

My glyphs are shown in my link above with my talents... I dont use imp glyph because it has no effect with doomguard/infernal Demons so I use Conflag glyph, COA glyph, and Immolate glyph.

I am flasked with food buff and I have a perfect raid make up. I also used a potion of speed( I did not stack it with a Heroism,Conflag Because That would be stupid.. Runing into GCD's isnt fun guys.)Unless you use soulfire which would then be a smart Idea but unitll we get a new way of not wasting all of our shards on 2 bosses then It will be critical to use soulfire.

The World of Warcraft Armory
That is me, I am afflic\SL for pvp atm but If you are smart you will take into account talents and what not.

I just wanted to let everyone know that according to me This spec and rotation will end up being #1 in 3.1 and so on right next to afflic locks. Questions please let me know thank you.

Maybe try writing in a less "look at me, look at me" style in future

, hopefully that wasnt your intention. Theres alot of Warlocks who read here who are very very good players, your opinion of what will end up being number 1 spec in 3.1 counts for nothing, we have zero idea what Blizz are going to do Warlocks in 3.1, theres supposed to be substantial changes on the way.

Concerning spec and report, with the lack of buffs i had in my last raid, i would think a hybrid spec could do just as well as the numbers you achieved, and maybe even better, time will tell, im still searching for a sub 3 minute kill in my guild.

Alright... Here is my new spec which has been pretty famous recently with the new backdraft buff,emberstorm buff, Chaos bolt buff and what. I'm not going to get into specifics even though this is EJ but The only other competing spec is affliction and this is a destruction thread. I have tried going 0/41/30 and It does not scale high enough as Deep destro.

Wow Web Stats

Already proves your assumptions to be incorrect.

Spellia · 01/24/09, 8:32 PM

Most of you seem to rely a little be too much on calculations and simulations. The player skills/lag/PC performance will determine most of the dps with equal gear.

Someone from premonition posted a WWS on this board PRE patch as full CB destro and did ~6k dps. I would personally like to see more parses for various fights to be able to compare specs and make an average potential top dps for all specs.

supplicium · 01/25/09, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by Spellia

Most of you seem to rely a little be too much on calculations and simulations. The player skills/lag/PC performance will determine most of the dps with equal gear.

Someone from premonition posted a WWS on this board PRE patch as full CB destro and did ~6k dps. I would personally like to see more parses for various fights to be able to compare specs and make an average potential top dps for all specs.

We have to rely on it, unfortunately, its the best way to check out dps etc.6k dps is easy if you have a short fight, or malyogs etc.

TangoDigital · 01/25/09, 6:42 AM

Originally Posted by supplicium

We have to rely on it, unfortunately, its the best way to check out dps etc.6k dps is easy if you have a short fight, or malyogs etc.

I prefer to rely on actual ingame experience. Patchwerk shoptalk gets you nowhere unless you can back it up with real facts from the game.

warlocu · 01/25/09, 10:03 AM

Asmo,human error in failling to make the "perfect" rotation or latency will always affect our dps,that's WoW !

imtsensational · 01/25/09, 1:04 PM

Well, the way I see it is if you are able to max out your character's potential, you would have more room for human error and latency issues while still dealing respectable damage. Really though, why are we even discussing this side-topic?

Spellia · 01/25/09, 3:01 PM

Originally Posted by imtsensational

Really though, why are we even discussing this side-topic?

I was asking for people to share their own WWS for us to be able to analyze them and mentioning that simulations only take you so far.