The Mage Equivalent: The Destruction Warlock - Page 37

Turboteckel · 05/20/09, 1:47 PM

Recently started testing 13/58

I'm running around with 2pt7 and tpt8 with the Conglag, Immolate and Life Tap glyph.

I get the common priority rotations but Is it vital you keep the Life Tap buff up as much as possible?

Also, would it be a bad thing to occasionally cast an Incinerate without Immolate up?

When I get a streak of Incinerates when everything is on CD, I sometimes run into Immolate being around the 1-2 second left mark. And I can't refresh it yet without clipping the last tick but the incinerate I start casting at the time often lands at the target with Immolate falling off while it's flying to the badguy.

The general rule for pretty much every spec is always do something, so I'm guessing it's not a big deal. Just want to make sure.

krilz · 05/20/09, 1:55 PM

Can't answer the Life Tap-thing since I hardly use it, but as for Immolate, if you have 1 sec left, then no problem, just cast it and you should refresh it without clipping it. If there is 2 sec left, do a LT, Corr or COD and refresh it before casting Immo.

nuibank · 05/20/09, 3:01 PM

You shouldn't use life tap just to keep the buff up with any spec, especially ISL specs. Life tap glyph is better for specs that need to life tap more often to keep up their mana. Since ISL specs use less mana, the lifetap glyph loses alot of its dps value, making immolate a better glyph.

As 13/58 you should have conflag / immolate / incinerate. If you want to stick with the lifetap glyph, just life tap as needed.

Evyle · 05/20/09, 3:38 PM

Originally Posted by Soulzar

In regards to what point to drop if you want to pick up Shadowfury. I have not tested Pyroclasm to see what F&B changes have done to its up time and

subsequent scaling to destro DPS, however here is my take on Backlash vs Emp Imp. I dont believe this was done with the version that includes the PTR changes, however none of the talents changed effect Emp imp so should not change the results.

  Actions: 3/3 Emp Imp
    chaos_bolt - 45.6%
    conflagrate - 50.3%
    immolate - 43.7%
    incinerate - 49.8%
   imp
    fire_bolt - DPE= 1191| 9%  DPET=  642

  Actions: 2/3 Emp Imp
    chaos_bolt - 43.9%
    conflagrate - 49.6%
    immolate - 43.2%
    incinerate - 48.6%
   imp
    fire_bolt - DPE= 1150| 9%  DPET=  620

  Actions: 1/3 Emp Imp
    chaos_bolt - 43.0%
    conflagrate - 50.2%
    immolate - 42.4%
    incinerate - 47.4%
   imp
    fire_bolt - DPE= 1109| 9%  DPET=  598

  Actions: 0/3 Emp Imp
    chaos_bolt - 41.5%
    conflagrate - 49.8%
    immolate - 41.6%
    incinerate - 46.5%
   imp
    fire_bolt - DPE= 1068| 9%  DPET=  576

What I see is on average per point in Emp imp my main nukes gain more than 1% crit.

3/3 -> 2/3
chaos_bolt: 45.6% - 43.9% = 1.7%
conflagrate: 50.3% - 49.6% = 0.7%
immolate: 43.7% - 43.2% = 0.5%
incinerate: 49.8% - 48.6% = 1.2%

Conflag seems to generally be affected less, most likely due to F&B crit modifier evening things out as well as the lower chances that that spell will be cast during an Emp imp proc. Similar results for Immolate, however doesnt seem to hold true to Chaos Bolt which is cast only slightly more than Immolate.

Given the changes to Fire and Brimstone, I think the discrepancy will be even less for Conflag as it will generally have a high crit rating to begin with.

It looks to me that pulling a point from backlash should be very close to pulling a point from Emp imp in regards to your crit fluctuations, however you can see that the added 5% imp dmg also contributes to a 22dps differential between 3/3 and 2/3, which tips the scale in my mind in favor of dropping 1% from backlash over Emp imp.

Your imps crit rating is not overly impressive to start with and I personally dont like the idea of giving the talent a 33% chance to not proc.

Last night I was able to try out a variant of the 0/13/58 spec (0/14/57). Due to my choices (wanting max range and soul link) I ended up dropping 2 points out of other talents. There was a post using simcraft with a lot of good info supporting that Empowered Imp was worth more point per point then Backlash.

I chose the 3/3 Empowered Imp and 1/3 Backlash (1 point from backlash to get 3 more yards range, 1 point for soul link)

Here is the data I gathered from 6 boss fights in Uldar.
Total player attacks that could crit 1224 (from Incinerate, Conflag, Immolation, Chaos Bolt and Rain of Fire)
Total Imp attacks 922 with a crit % of 15.18 (netting 140 crits).
The 140 crits gave a 20% crit bonus to 140 or 11.43% of my attacks that could crit (though some of them could of hit right before boss death and were wasted).
The Imp did 9.7% of my damage over the fights.

So here is where the theory craft comes in. If the imp lost 15% of his damage from loss of empowered imp he would of possibly done only 8.2% of my damage ... or a loss of 1.455% of my total damage done.

The results from this limited size test in actual play (1224 attacks on 6 bosses) showed a possible 2.286% crit gain and a 1.455% dps gain from the imp's increased damage alone.

In conclusion 2.286% crit + 1.455% dps increase > 3% crit from back draft making the impowered imp talent slightly better than backlash.

(edit - fixed typo backdraft replaced with backlash)

krisp · 05/20/09, 4:33 PM

Originally Posted by Evyle

Last night I was able to try out a variant of the 0/13/58 spec (0/14/57). Due to my choices (wanting max range and soul link) I ended up dropping 2 points out of other talents. There was a post using simcraft with a lot of good info supporting that Empowered Imp was worth more point per point then Backdraft.

...

In conclusion 2.286% crit + 1.455% dps increase > 3% crit from back draft making the impowered imp talent slightly better than backdraft.

It's backLASH, not backDRAFT. Might wanna edit so people don't get the wrong idea.

Baako · 05/20/09, 7:49 PM

Is Pyroclasm worth the 3 points?

Im currently using glyph of life tap and not talented into ISL

Should i drop Pyroclasm put 2 points into ISL and 1 point for Backlack?

subtletuna · 05/20/09, 8:25 PM

I was wondering... i know the +21 crit + 3% crit damage is the best meta gem... but im wondering if it's worth using for a non-jewelcrafter. I'd be losing out on a bunch of SP replacing 2 red socket gems with a sp/spirit.

What im sayin gis.. in this case, would 25sp + 2% int be better?

(This is for 0/13/58)

krilz · 05/20/09, 8:34 PM

Originally Posted by Baako

Is Pyroclasm worth the 3 points?

Im currently using glyph of life tap and not talented into ISL

Should i drop Pyroclasm put 2 points into ISL and 1 point for Backlack?

Backlash is first one to drop points out of if you want ISL. Pyroclasm is very good, can't find the numbers, but they're in the warlock forum somewhere.

Originally Posted by subtletuna

I was wondering... i know the +21 crit + 3% crit damage is the best meta gem... but im wondering if it's worth using for a non-jewelcrafter. I'd be losing out on a bunch of SP replacing 2 red socket gems with a sp/spirit.

What im sayin gis.. in this case, would 25sp + 2% int be better?

(This is for 0/13/58)

I doubt that SP you'll be losing overweighs the crit meta. Don't do it :-)

Morwen · 05/20/09, 8:48 PM

The Pyroclasm buff will be active at your Conflag crit rate, since it's a 10 second buff if you crit on cast. With F&B the crit rate on Conflag should be at least 60%, so every point in Pyroclasm is worth at least 1.2% additional personal damage. That makes it much better point for point than Backlash because the marginal value of 1% crit is much less than 1% damage.

Swapping out Backlash entirely would let you take Soul Link, Shadowfury, and 2/2 Reach, all good utility talents for a small dps loss.

Soulzar · 05/21/09, 11:26 AM

For a detailed comparison of the DPS value of the Destro talents you can drop to pick up Shadowfury or any of the other utility talents has been done recently in the Simcraft thread. I suggest people go review this post to help reduce the number of posts inquiring about it.

http://elitistjerks.com/f80/t48311-s...6/#post1240195

Drison · 05/21/09, 7:46 PM

Quick question. Im going to use 0/13/58 tonight on general vezax for the 1st time and im asumming the imp is going to be useless because it will be oom so im going to try the DG 1st but if we happen to wipe is the succubus the next best choice or should i just stay 0/41/30 for this fight and use the felguard?

Faldrath · 05/21/09, 8:56 PM

Originally Posted by Drison

Quick question. Im going to use 0/13/58 tonight on general vezax for the 1st time and im asumming the imp is going to be useless because it will be oom so im going to try the DG 1st but if we happen to wipe is the succubus the next best choice or should i just stay 0/41/30 for this fight and use the felguard?

Pets aren't affected by the aura - the imp regens mana normally.

Naoe · 05/22/09, 7:17 AM

Haste is a very valuable stat for 0/13/58, we can all agree on that, but can issues arise regarding reaching 1s cap on global cooldown?

I've gone abit overkill and have gotten almost 18% haste from gear only, combine that with 3% + 5% from raidbuffs, 30% from backdraft and 30% from heroism, you get WAY below 1 second cast time on conflagrate and immolate, and might get incinerate/chaos bolt under 1s too. I heard that backdraft will reduce gcd cap to 0.7s, can anyone confirm this?

What value of haste is recommended before the value of it starts to diminish alot?

Asmodaeus · 05/22/09, 9:43 AM

Since the sim models backdraft and heroism, you can run it with your stats to get the stat weights for your gear point.
I once had over 20% haste as destro, and haste was still pretty good, despite all the soft haste caps. You are hitting haste caps, but only a small amount of the spells you cast will be haste capped, so the effect on the value of haste is not that big as one might think. In fact, with the amount of crit in Ulduar gear (and the very low amount of haste in tier 8 gear), it might be a good idea to prioritize upgrades that have haste on them.
And yeah, even if you go down to 0.8 sec casts, you'll still be able to queue spells. At 0.6-0.7 sec casts I can't. I don't know if it has something to do with latency, the behavior has always been very weird.

Hiraedd · 05/22/09, 2:34 PM

Removed.

krosz · 05/22/09, 3:15 PM

Originally Posted by Turboteckel

Recently started testing 13/58

[...]
Also, would it be a bad thing to occasionally cast an Incinerate without Immolate up?

When I get a streak of Incinerates when everything is on CD, I sometimes run into Immolate being around the 1-2 second left mark. And I can't refresh it yet without clipping the last tick but the incinerate I start casting at the time often lands at the target with Immolate falling off while it's flying to the badguy.
[...]

Incinerate gets the +dmg bonus from immolate if immolate's still up when your incinerate cast ends.

Beerguzzler · 05/22/09, 6:15 PM

Originally Posted by Hiraedd

I recently changed specs to 3/14/54 Destruction. It's fun and definitely a breath of fresh air after raiding as Affliction for so long. However, I am confused in terms of glyphs. Currently, I am running with the Glyphs of Life Tap, Conflagrate, and Incinerate. I am debating if I should use the Glyph of Immolate over Incinerate. I have tried both scenarios (LT, Confl, Incin versus LT, Confl, Immo). I have not seen much difference, but, then again, that could be due to human error on my part. I'd greatly appreciate any advice regarding the dps difference between the Glyphs of Immolate and Incinerate.

My detailed spec can be found here: The World of Warcraft Armory

Immo, Incin, Conflag glyphs.

nuibank · 05/22/09, 6:22 PM

Originally Posted by Beerguzzler

Immo, Incin, Conflag glyphs.

Simcraft shows life tap to be a better glyph for deep destruction specs that lacks ISL. Conflag / Incinerate / Life Tap

Grobyc · 05/22/09, 10:51 PM

Have anyone checked to see if the succubus is better than an imp without Empowered Imp (but with Improved Imp)? The reason why I ask is because Empowered Imp is one of the talents that is first on the chopping block and I've grown quite fond of Shadowfury.

I have 2 other unrelated questions. One being when facing against Razorscale, when she lands and a CoD goes on her, does it still deal the damage when she flies up in the air? The other is against XT: if CoD is on XT before the heart drops, does the CoD still deal the damage? Obviously, if neither one of those deal damage, I will just throw up CoA instead.

Naoe · 05/23/09, 6:07 AM

Originally Posted by Naoe

Haste is a very valuable stat for 0/13/58, we can all agree on that, but can issues arise regarding reaching 1s cap on global cooldown?

I've gone abit overkill and have gotten almost 18% haste from gear only, combine that with 3% + 5% from raidbuffs, 30% from backdraft and 30% from heroism, you get WAY below 1 second cast time on conflagrate and immolate, and might get incinerate/chaos bolt under 1s too. I heard that backdraft will reduce gcd cap to 0.7s, can anyone confirm this?

What value of haste is recommended before the value of it starts to diminish alot?

I did some napkin calculations on this and it seems my worries are pretty much unfounded. If backdraft does lower the gcd to 0.7 as believed, it does not need to be included in the calculations.

If
x = cap for haste from gear for this spell due to gcd at 1s
c = base cast time
1.3 is from heroism, 1.03 is from ret and 1.05 is from wrath of air

We get

c * (1/1+x) * (1/1.3) * (1/1.03) * (1/1.05) = 1

which can be simplified to:

x = (c / 1.406) - 1

With this I got these haste cap values for different spells:

immo/conflag/CoD: 6.69% haste, this will always be reached unless you avoid haste like the plague
chaos bolt: 42.25% haste, impossible to reach
incinerate: 60.00% haste, even more impossible to reach

So basicly, the only soft cap in reach is always broken when heroism is on is the global cooldown. Of course assuming backdraft does not contribute towards reaching the gcd cap on 1s.

Drakh · 05/23/09, 7:25 AM

Originally Posted by krosz

Incinerate gets the +dmg bonus from immolate if immolate's still up when your incinerate cast ends.

Does it have to be MY Immolate or is it just an immolate regardless of the "owner" ? Pre-patch I remember it didn't matter who cast immolate.

And what's about the F&B-bonus ? The tooltip indicates that it has to be my own immolate ?

Paroxys · 05/23/09, 8:27 AM

Originally Posted by Drakh

Do it have to be MY Immolate or is it just an immolate regardless of the "owner" ? Pre-patch I remember it didn't matter who cast immolate.

And what's about the F&B-bonus ? The tooltip indicates that it has to be my own immolate ?

Correct - the base Incinerate damage depends on ANY Immolate being on the target, but the F&B Bonus damage for Incinerate and Chaos Bolt require YOUR immolate to be present.

marano · 05/23/09, 9:49 PM

Originally Posted by nuibank

Simcraft shows life tap to be a better glyph for deep destruction specs that lacks ISL. Conflag / Incinerate / Life Tap

I'm sure it does. But in Ulduar, you hardly get the chance to stand and nuke to the point of going oom. There's always at least one ablity that obligates you to move. This is your chance to LT without it being responsible for lower DPS.

So yes people, these simcrafts are useful for us to generate an idea of the spec's potential performance. It's up to us to put it into context.

Evyle · 05/24/09, 9:36 PM

Originally Posted by Drison

Quick question. Im going to use 0/13/58 tonight on general vezax for the 1st time and im asumming the imp is going to be useless because it will be oom so im going to try the DG 1st but if we happen to wipe is the succubus the next best choice or should i just stay 0/41/30 for this fight and use the felguard?

I was using a 0/14/57 spec (very similar to the 0/13/58 spec) for Vezax
It seems pets are excluded from the mana regen problems of General Vezax. I checked the WWS of our last kills and got the needed Imp data.
Total fight length 6 min 38 seconds (398 seconds)
Imp number of attacks 185

If he has a 2 second cast time that is 370 seconds of throwing fire bolts - The imp did have some travel time here and there.

I was also watching him and he did seem to stay at full mana the entire fight

Demi9OD · 05/26/09, 4:39 PM

I've got an issue I am not sure how to handle in my destro rotation. The cooldown of Chaos Bolt and duration of Immolate is such that quite often CB comes off cooldown when Immolate has less than 2 seconds remaining. In this scenario I have a two choices. I can cast the Chaos Bolt, which will not receieve the F&B bonus or I can cast an Incinerate with no F&B, Immolate, then CB.

My suspicion is that getting the CB cooldown counting down again, as well as virtually guaranteeing the next CB will be within my next Immolate is the better option, but it is frustrating when it seems like 50% of my CBs are not getting the 25% bonus. Of course I try to life tap or COD during last tick of Immolate, but that is not always an option.