Guys if your going to post weightings please include the derivation or the logic behind it, some things are obvious ie:
Intellect ~ 1/3 of Crit Weighting
Spirit ~ 0.3 (0.39 with Demonic Aegis) of S.D. Weighting.
Note: Considering that on almost every fight theres movement I dont like including Lifetap in Weightings; theres basically Noth/Loatheb/instructor/Kel where you MIGHT not be moving enough to LT (Lifetap) efficently and Patchwerk the only boss where you will be LTing while standing still it's not the norm. to factor it in.
Also include assumptions; generally in the enviroment as it is we should be assuming about 2500 raid buffed spell damage (averaged out to include procs and the like) and 35% crit with capped hit and 10% passive haste. While these numbers do seem incredibly arbitrary you do need a starting point.
I know when calculating my own weightings however I was coming up with 0.39:1 Crit:Spell damage much less than many would assume; I wont post my own calculations yet since they were basically matchbox maths in a spell of boredom and I really need to sort them out but please if you state something as truth at least highlight which ideas you considered so we can give some constructive criticism to you and recieve some for ourselves.
I'm worried that I'm overvaluing crit/haste though, I keep changing those numbers. It's really difficult to break out of the BC mindset and remember the new rating conversions. I'm still gemming/enchanting all spell power though, and I keep hit/non-hit sets in order to mix and match for 11%, 14%, and 17% hit, as well as minimal hit for trash/heroics.
I don't wish to derail the thread but I can't seem to get concrete information on this - What's the hit cap for Heroic 5mans only (With and without Suppression/Cataclysm)?
Heroic 5mans are the extent of my PvE play and I'm worried I'll waste (am wasting?) item budget going over. Currently 174.
After trying every spec variation (full affliction, full destruction, full demonology and everything inbetween) I've decided on 0/31/40 to be the biggest damage dealer. I'm still using the 4-piece T6 set bonus and the 2-piece T7 set bonus, and my incinerates are hitting like a truck. After some thorough testing last night I found out that it's not worth casting corruption on tank'n'spank bosses, just CoA > Immolate > Incinerate yeilded the highest numbers I've seen so far.
Funnily enough just checking Buzzkill on the armory, he seems to have gone 0/31/40 too. I also plan on trying how good Saccing the imp is tonight, I'll test it on Saph/Heigen.
One more quick question, are any other content-farming warlocks still using 4-piece T6? Running 2100-ish spell power, that's an extra 126 spell power for incinerates. Worth it?
After trying every spec variation (full affliction, full destruction, full demonology and everything inbetween) I've decided on 0/31/40 to be the biggest damage dealer. I'm still using the 4-piece T6 set bonus and the 2-piece T7 set bonus, and my incinerates are hitting like a truck. After some thorough testing last night I found out that it's not worth casting corruption on tank'n'spank bosses, just CoA > Immolate > Incinerate yeilded the highest numbers I've seen so far.
Funnily enough just checking Buzzkill on the armory, he seems to have gone 0/31/40 too. I also plan on trying how good Saccing the imp is tonight, I'll test it on Saph/Heigen.
One more quick question, are any other content-farming warlocks still using 4-piece T6? Running 2100-ish spell power, that's an extra 126 spell power for incinerates. Worth it?
Personally I think I'll go with something like this in the future:
Int = 0.2
Crit = 0.6
Spell Power = 1.07
Hit = 1.4
Haste = 0.85
Spirit = 0.52
This is pretty close to what I use as 2/13/56 or similar specs. It's important to understand how liquid equivalence points can be, so you're better off determining equivalence values at an obtainable "wish list" gear level than at a current gear level. Percentage based stats (Hit, Haste, and Crit) become more valuable as spellpower and spell multipliers in raids increase.
It still amazes me to see some locks valuing crit as highly as they do - some so much they even gem for it. It's really a miserable stat since the conversion ratio is so high, and because even as destro, we still have spells that can't crit in our arsenal. Compare the rating conversions at lvl 80 and you see why hit and haste are so much better.
Spell damage also carries the added advantage of being cheaper in item points, which often makes it the best gem choice, even if you end up missing socket bonuses.
I also plan to play some as demo as well, and it seems like most of the values are relatively similar. Haste and hit devalue a little bit and int and stam are a bit more valuable for specs with DK.
After trying every spec variation (full affliction, full destruction, full demonology and everything inbetween) I've decided on 0/31/40 to be the biggest damage dealer. I'm still using the 4-piece T6 set bonus and the 2-piece T7 set bonus, and my incinerates are hitting like a truck. After some thorough testing last night I found out that it's not worth casting corruption on tank'n'spank bosses, just CoA > Immolate > Incinerate yeilded the highest numbers I've seen so far.
Funnily enough just checking Buzzkill on the armory, he seems to have gone 0/31/40 too. I also plan on trying how good Saccing the imp is tonight, I'll test it on Saph/Heigen.
One more quick question, are any other content-farming warlocks still using 4-piece T6? Running 2100-ish spell power, that's an extra 126 spell power for incinerates. Worth it?
Ironically, I respecced to almost an identical spec last night and was very pleased. I had been running a 30/41 but was noticing EI wasn't proccing much at all. I eventually did a dummy test and noticed in 4 full imp mana bars I saw 3 procs of EI. I wasn't seeing great increases from DE either, so I went with 1 last point in DK and the 31/40. Last night in Naxx I was raid buffed to around 1880 spell power....313 hit on bosses....and 20% crit before all the buffs (so 35% some odd crit with talents and moonie buff) Recount showed my boss DPS hovering around 2300, which I think is still low based on my experience with the build. I also am still having a lot of trouble keeping the imp alive, so I ended up leaving him on passive for a lot of the arachnid bosses as the stupid little adds kept picking on him. I expect, with practice I will get better at that and my boss DPS should increase significantly with him attacking too.
My rotation was also COA, IMO, Incin on short fights, and Corrupt, COA, Imo Incin for long ones. I'm using the COA, Imp, and Imo glyphs, but I was thinking of adding the corruption nightfall glyph.
When you are talking about Empowered Imp don't forget that he has only about 5% crit on his own, and can get an extra 18% crit plus Intellect buffs in raids. It's designed for situation with raid buffs, not without them.
When you are talking about Empowered Imp don't forget that he has only about 5% crit on his own, and can get an extra 18% crit plus Intellect buffs in raids. It's designed for situation with raid buffs, not without them.
Good point. One of these days I want to run WWS on the same boss with EI, then with DK, then with DE and see if there is a noticable winner. I just wasn't seeing EI proc enough to seem worth it, but I'm hoping I was wrong.
Good point. One of these days I want to run WWS on the same boss with EI, then with DK, then with DE and see if there is a noticable winner. I just wasn't seeing EI proc enough to seem worth it, but I'm hoping I was wrong.
The difference in DPS from that 1 talent point is so small it will be very hard to detect a winner. The WWS that comes out on top probably was when you had a couple extra tenths of a second DPSing the boss, or that last nuke hit instead of the boss dying first. You're probably better off figuring out the winner on paper rather than in practice unless you want to do 100 tests of each at the same gear level.
Hello, again. I would really like to see a 0/31/40 raiding warlock's wws. Is this just a spec used by lower geared warlocks? I am 2/13/56 and have a link to wws here WWS Loading.... Now, for overall damage, I'm only doing 3.1k dps but in a fight that's easiest for a caster to judge dps, check my patchwork dps. In my opinion, this is the best fight to judge dps because there is no interference of your cast time. My rotation is the normal for this spec: CoA, immo, incin x4 (for heroism, at least 5), conflag, chaos bolt, soulfire x2.
I am not trying to brag about dps but merely attempting to collect some data. I tried 0/31/40 spec and did not enjoy it very much. I only tested it on test dummies and I did notice that my dps seemed to be a bit higher. I have yet to use it in any raid situations. I'm also not sure how it scales gear wise. I am currently 1859 spell power without fel armor, with fel = 2308, crit =19.83, 336 hit and 256 haste. I would love to know the superior spec for raiding warlocks, dps wise. Any thoughts on this subject are much appreciated!
On a side note, is Black Magic enchant even worth the mats? I am having a hard time justifying this as a good enchant for pve. Out of a total 18,089,255 raid damage, black magic only accounts for around 105k. This curse is 50% chance to apply on spell cast but has (from my own experience) a 30 second cooldown. It might even be worth it if it were to proc Molten Core but I have yet to see it proc it on any practice dummy encounters. Black Magic < 63 Spell damage?
On a side note, is Black Magic enchant even worth the mats? I am having a hard time justifying this as a good enchant for pve. Out of a total 18,089,255 raid damage, black magic only accounts for around 105k. This curse is 50% chance to apply on spell cast but has (from my own experience) a 30 second cooldown. It might even be worth it if it were to proc Molten Core but I have yet to see it proc it on any practice dummy encounters. Black Magic < 63 Spell damage?
Stay away from Black Magic, you are better off with the spell power enchant because it is a flat dps boost to all spells not just one.
Self buffed + with Immolate on the target I get around 7.5k crits on average, and 3-4k normal hits. Raid buffed in Naxx yesterday the average crit was 10k, highest being 12k. Are these standard numbers for this spec?
Hello, again. I would really like to see a 0/31/40 raiding warlock's wws. Is this just a spec used by lower geared warlocks?
I saw that most of the locks in Ensidia (merge between SK gaming and Nihilum, world #1 guild at the moment) use the 31/40 build. I am wondering if they ever sac the pet in AoE heavy encounters or if DS is just a filler talent for them. Also wondering if they use any dots besides immolate and if they ever use conflagrate. Unfortunatly they do not have a public forum up yet. I will see if one of their locks hangs out in their irc channel tonight.
I saw that most of the locks in Ensidia (merge between SK gaming and Nihilum, world #1 guild at the moment) use the 31/40 build. I am wondering if they ever sac the pet in AoE heavy encounters or if DS is just a filler talent for them. Also wondering if they use any dots besides immolate and if they ever use conflagrate. Unfortunatly they do not have a public forum up yet. I will see if one of their locks hangs out in their irc channel tonight.
yea would love to know what they are casting. i am same build as them and would be great to see what they are doing. keep us updated if you hear anything
-Backdraft now also reduces the global cooldown of your next three Destruction spells by 10/20/30%.
-Chaos Bolt damage has been increased (from 1036-1314 to 1243-1577 for Rank 4).
-Demonic Knowledge now Increases your spell damage by an amount equal to 3/6/9% of the total of your active demon's Stamina plus Intellect. (Down from 4/8/12%)
-Demonic Tactics now Increases melee and spell critical strike chance for you and your summoned demon by 1/2/3/4/5%. (Down from 2/4/6/8/10%)
I suppose they want to remove the 41/30 and 31/40 specs
-Backdraft now also reduces the global cooldown of your next three Destruction spells by 10/20/30%.
-Chaos Bolt damage has been increased (from 1036-1314 to 1243-1577 for Rank 4).
-Demonic Knowledge now Increases your spell damage by an amount equal to 3/6/9% of the total of your active demon's Stamina plus Intellect. (Down from 4/8/12%)
-Demonic Tactics now Increases melee and spell critical strike chance for you and your summoned demon by 1/2/3/4/5%. (Down from 2/4/6/8/10%)
I suppose they want to remove the 41/30 and 31/40 specs
I think that's exactly the intent. The BD/CB changes make deep Destro more attractive. However, the DK/DT nerfs make Demo, and especially Deep Demo, even more unattractive than it was already. I think I nice buff to DP is what Demo needs to bring it in line.
-Backdraft now also reduces the global cooldown of your next three Destruction spells by 10/20/30%.
-Chaos Bolt damage has been increased (from 1036-1314 to 1243-1577 for Rank 4).
-Demonic Knowledge now Increases your spell damage by an amount equal to 3/6/9% of the total of your active demon's Stamina plus Intellect. (Down from 4/8/12%)
-Demonic Tactics now Increases melee and spell critical strike chance for you and your summoned demon by 1/2/3/4/5%. (Down from 2/4/6/8/10%)
I suppose they want to remove the 41/30 and 31/40 specs
Yea I don't see why they would nerf it though it wasn't op or anything. I always saw afflic locks do more dmg if played right then either of those specs. This always seems to hurt demonology more then help.
Anyways how big of a buff to destro is this. So with the changes that means even during Hero/Blood using immo and even CB after a coflag is ok to use?
Yea I don't see why they would nerf it though it wasn't op or anything. I always saw afflic locks do more dmg if played right then either of those specs. This always seems to hurt demonology more then help.
Anyways how big of a buff to destro is this. So with the changes that means even during Hero/Blood using immo and even CB after a coflag is ok to use?
It's because they want to get rid of the one button spamming, and 31/40 depending on your gear you have a good chance of just removing corruption from the cycle and it's back to the old CoA/Immolate incinerate spam.
Well, I don't know about Chaos Bolt after Conflagrate, because it saves you slightly less time than if you use Incinerate, so if number of Incinerates within 1 Immolate-Conflagrate cycle doesn't depend on what spell you use during Backdraft (Incinerate or Chaos Bolt), then Incinerate is more desirable, but if it depends, i.e. you would consume Immolate right after tick if you use Chaos Bolt, but right before tick if you use Incinerate (unlikely to happen however, because difference is only 0.075 sec at 0 haste), then Chaos Bolt is more desirable. On the positive side skipping Immolate may be undesirable, because its downtime may cost more than extra 0.225 sec saved (at 0 haste) from using Incinerate.
Speaking of hurting deep Demonology, I think it suffers from Ruin Problem Take II A.K.A. Emberstorm Problem. There is just too much power in Emberstorm to give it away. If anything it should be brought back to old 10% Fire damage while Incinerate cast time reduction can be moved elsewhere, and another missing 5% just provided by various talents in their respective flavors.
About Immolate and Chaos Bolt: Immolate damage per cast (not even per cast time!) is simply unreachable for Chaos Bolt for any reasonable gear (you simply need crit chance above 90% and it's getting higher as spell power increases). Immolate glyph is considered. Also if you worry about your rotation, pure Destruction rotation is elegant, desirable recast intervals of Immolate, Chaos Bolt and Conflagrate are almost equal, the difference is less than cast time of 1 Incinerate, so you cast them in the same order for long periods of time. While it may be arguable when it's worth casting Corruption and Curse of Agony, you aren't losing much (if anything) if you don't break the sequence of Destruction trio (like Chaos Bolt - Conflagrate - Immolate, or Conflagrate - Immolate - Chaos Bolt)
Also, if anyone is missing some recent changes, I'd like to remind that:
Corruption coefficient is un-nerfed. It's 1.2 rather than 0.936 (CoA is at 1.2 too)
Immolate coefficient is buffed on DOT. Now it's 0.2+5*0.2 (1.2) rather than 0.2*5*1.13 (0.85), FnB brings it to 0.25+5*0.22 (1.35)
Lastly tests indicate than Shadow and Flame is applied multiplicatively rather than linearly, Incinerate and Chaos Bolt coefficients go to 1.2*0.714 = 0.857, rather than 0.2+0.714=0.914.
So in the end, Corruption DPCT is about 80% higher than that of Incinerate before counting possibly different chance to hit, ability of Incinerate to crit and Molten Core sometimes being active, this value is very stable and nearly doesn't change with spell power (actually slightly favors Corruption). Still ignoring different chance to hit, but considering Molten Core being active and Chaotic meta gem for 209% crits it seems Incinerate surpasses Corruption at a good 50% crit chance. Of course this is accessible crit rate with all the raid buffs and debuffs available, but I would still check WWS or Recount statistics for a definitive answer if Corruption's own damage is good for you or not. Curse of Agony is hardly in a better state, because it's only slightly better thanks to higher base damage, and can be made a tiny bit better with its Glyph, but overall it looks like both spells are very close to being no less no more, but Molten Core proccers due to their low own DPCT. It just seems to make crit even worse (as if we didn't know already that it's pretty crap). But here is some question: Would you agree with me that currently Warlock is probably worst scaling with crit among all DPS classes (meaning we all may end up with TBC Affliction problem)
Originally Posted by Syllex
Does anyone know if the change to Backdraft allow the GCD to drop under 1.0 seconds?
Is Backdraft applied before or after Haste is applied?
From what I see on Live realms (yes-yes, it could be changed again), currently GCD minimum of 1 sec has extremely high priority, even Shadowfury has 1 sec GCD, while game data still appears to contain value of 0.5 sec for it. As for second question, is there any difference?
There is a difference, if it was applied beforehand the global cooldown would not be reduced past 1 second by your haste. I believe his second question was just a different way of asking his first.
But here is some question: Would you agree with me that currently Warlock is probably worst scaling with crit among all DPS classes (meaning we all may end up with TBC Affliction problem)
This same thought has occurred to me. We get a bonus in artificially increased crit ratings through the imp and we don't get any special benefits upon crits. On top of this, add that only ~75% of our damage output is affected by crit ratings, the rest is produced by our imp + DoTs. We basically have an 0.75 modifier on the value of crit rating as a deep destruction warlock.
I'm sure there are other DPS casters out there who get less benefit from crit than we do, I just can't think of any right now. Frost mages for example still have a much larger portion of their damage being crittable.
This is coupled with the problem of us having DoTs in our PvE rotation, efficiently capping destruction at 30 yards range. I would be much happier if they somehow gave us the options to drop the DoTs in our rotation, and instead add shadow bolts as the extra odd modifier. Maybe make any shadow bolt crits increase our fire damage for a certain amount of time for example. Oh well, the latter part of this post is a rant. But I would love to see some positive news about destruction warlocks and crit scaling. Maybe I have misinterpreted my data, I prefer to have a humble stance on that subject since it isn't double checked or anything.
* Backdraft now also reduces the global cooldown of your next three Destruction spells by 10/20/30%.
* Chaos Bolt damage has been increased (from 1036-1314 to 1243-1577 for Rank 4).
good enough?
maybe conflagrate and deep destro assume some reason to be?
12/08/08, 9:44 AM
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