Could you post the link? I'm not personally so nitpicky about most assertions, but the one you made is, to put it mildly highly debatable (and hotly debated). In such a case, referring to "evidence" that hasn't actually been provided here, refers to facts that may not actually be facts at all. This invites confusion over a subject that already significantly affects gear choices and will only affect them more as gear levels increase.

So, I'm not calling you a liar, but please do the work and provide the proof if you want to make such claims.

Err, it's not minimal at all. Crit affects corruption and UA as much as it affects a nuke with fully talented Ruin. The amount of haste to get to capped instants is not likely to come for a while. Eradication uptime is not enough to make that a huge concern. The numbers show affliction crit beating demo and destro and haste not too far behind. The fact that both specs want to use their ilvl on spell power and affliction dominates that swing most gear pretty far in that direction.

EDIT (the TBC sentence was sitting badly with me): Citing 2.0 doesn't make any sense here. The reason why destro outscaled affliction in 2.0 was A) DoT buffs didn't match SnF for spell power coefficients, B) Before the 4th lock, all destro damage was from SB which meant it received full benefit from crit and haste -- even MORE than full benefit for crit due to ISB feedback and C) Instant spells and no DoTs received anything from crit or haste.

All three of those points are changed now: A) Haunt and SE give 30% more DoT damage changing pure SP scaling in Aff's favor, B) Destro has 2-3 DoTs to cast now instead of one nuke, and C) Instants gain from haste and the two strongest DoTs scale with crit.

But there's no sense making "reasons" why people feel one way or the other. There is math on spreadsheets and simcraft that shows it scales better.

I would love for someone to prove it otherwise (as I prefer Destro to Affliction) but right now the math tells me Affliction is the only one that will scale well with gear compared to the other caster classes. Unless they add scaling buffs to pets, or fix some of the deeper destro talents I believe Affliction will end up the only real raid PVE spec.

As destro with my current gear: The World of Warcraft Armory and 2/13/56 i am DPS competitive with our aff locks until the boss reaches 35% health, after that i cant keep up with the DPS output.

Im trying to find the WWS for our naxx for patchwerk, before 35% health i was at 5500 dps and aff lock was at 5650, as soon as 35% health hit and bloodlust went out i went into soulfire phase and he obviously started getting benefits from Deaths embrace.

We ended with me at 5850 and him at 6560 dps, approx 600+ dps difference coming very close to the 12% increase deaths embrace provides, ofcourse this includes RNG etc, but yeah.


Give destro something like deaths embrace and it would be a lot better parity.

Yeh alot of classes, warriors, mages, aff locks get some for of <25% dps boost, would be nice for Destro/Demo to have some consolation. We can use DS but it doesnt gain us any dps without Soul Siphon. May work for Meta spec 20% dmg ontop of the 5k+ticks <25%.

Anyone tried a 15/51/5 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft build purely to see how it reacts <25% and if it gains anything? the loss of points in destro will prob make it a no-no.

I think you'd be better off with something like 7/51/13 Talent Calculator - Wowhead if you want to try out Soul Siphon with a demonology build. Losing the cast time reduction from Bane will gimp your dps far more than the additional points in Affliction will help it.

Hail, fellow warlocks! I've posted here a few times near the beginning of LK and since then kind of fell into a rhythm and did not check here too often. After revisiting my Warlock since 3.0.8 I've noticed the changes. First of which, is the new rotation, centered mainly around the updated Conflag glyph. I believe my last post was somewhere 5 or 7 but I've read all the posts up after to get myself up to speed.

I've read the new rotation should go something like, corr, CoA, immo, conflag, cb, incin until you can bd again. I've seen the posts about simcraft and how corr actually increases mc up time by 16%. I think the problem, personally, with adding corruption to the rotation is the flow. Or should I say lack of one? The extra gcd every 18 seconds is kind of a pain and the extra 16% of mc uptime isnt that well used if we're casting corr every time it expires. That's how many applications of corr x 1.5 gcd, assuming no haste. Worth it? Not sure I dont have the math.

What I have been doing lately and tomorrow I will try it more seriously in raids is:

Immolate, coa, conflag, cd, incin until conflag is off cd and this is the part you have to watch your cd's. Through the course of a boss fight cb may not immediately be off cd. So instead of waiting the 1 second, cast an incin and then follow up with that cb. Assuming everything went right you should have cb off cd in your 3 bd spells.

The problem some users are having is getting 2 conflags off per immolate. The way to avoid this is to not apply immolate with any of your bd spells. If you conflag right before immo is expiring you may be tempted to immediately apply it and IMHO that is bad. It's not good if you are attempting to get the 2 conflags per immo. What you do in this time is up to you and shard availability but the last couple bd spells can be incin, even if they dont hit quite as hard due to no immo or soulfire and reapplication of Coa may be necessary. You are watching your conflag cd and casting immolate very close to the cd being up, kill those few seconds doing any of the above but dont use immolate as your final bd spell. It will totally mess up your rotation and flow of double BD. Of course for max dps, replacing incin with soulfire during heroism is recommended and even if you can fit them in every few bd's, they will increase your dps.

I've done around 10 target dummy trials to test this "rotation" and I was able to successfully pull it off without missing a cd and continuously having bd and cb on cd. Unfortunately, I don't have any numbers or links to prove that this is highest dps rotation per 2/13/56 spec. I am actually curious to know how this will hold up in raids. I pulled it off in a 10 man VoA run and was able to get 3.6k dps by the end of the run. I'm not bragging about that dps but it wasn't fully raid buffed and I didn't enough shards to add soulfires in the rotation enough, only 5 casts total. But, this is a fight where your dps is going to be lower due to spikes, poison clouds, random charges and the occasional stuns.

So, I recommend trying out on a dummy and see what you get and if it's anywhere close or higher than what you should be at with your old rotation, give it a shot on a boss. Post the results and tell me if it's better or not. I intend on trying tomorrow when raid instances reset as well.

Finally, maybe everyone has come to the conclusions I've posted already but I sense some people were running into snags with the double bd rotation. I hope this helps and more importantly, i hope it makes sense to someone other than me because I am VERY tired but wanted to post this before bed lol. :P

P.S. I wouldnt put too much weight on current simcraft tests using approximations of future tier gear and stating which spec will be best with higher level gear. The upcoming changes to the warlock trees make it impossible to know which spec will be best for t8.

Oh, I'm so hoping these changes bring Destro in line with affliction, I really don't like the spec.

So, thoughts on builds and such, and opinions/input needed in relation to potential use of searing pain.

Here's what I'm thinking are possible builds for deep destro (please, other opinions welcome!):

* 0/18/53 Destro -- hitcapped.
* 3/15/53 Destro -- not hitcapped

Points can be adjusted depending on hitcap, if searing pain is an important part of the rotation, and whether replenishment is needed in raid.

My guess for rotation at this time: CoE > Immo > Conflag > Incinxwhatever > conflag > Immo etc.
Questions to get data on:

* Searing Pain's value.
* Do we bother with CoA or Corr, since there is no Molten Core in deep destro?

Glyph selection is going to need a lot of testing I think.

Glyph of Incinerate -- Increases the damage done by Incinerate by 5%
Glyph of Imp -- Increases the damage done by your Imp's Firebolt spell by 20%. (Old: 10%)
Glyph of Chaos Bolt *new* -- Reduces the cooldown on Chaos Bolt by 2 sec.
Glyph of Immolate-- Increases the periodic damage of your Immolate by 20% but decreases its initial damage by 10%.

Chaosbolt on a 10 second coulddown is pretty tempting, but we need to find which three of those actually pumps out more dps.

That's pretty much the same spec i posted in the Patchnotes Disco Thread.

- You only need 1 point in Fel Synergy. 50%*50% = 25%, the second point only ups that to 30%
- I'd rather go with 10% more stamina than 1k more heal from the cookie
- Pyroclasm if intended as MC replace is a joke. Seering Pain is way to much agro for the low DPCT just to get a 6% damage buff for 10 seconds IF it crits, so the Talent mostly relies on Conflag crits to proc (50% uptime, rather less)

I kind of get the feeling that there is more coming for destro, as Pyroclasm mixes up everything that's wrong with F&B as a Tier 10 Talent and makes it worse. And seeing Decimation and Molten Core deep down in Demo feels like beeing on the wrong side of a Gnome Punt. Removal of Conflag Glyph inc....

I think someone said this already, but the Glyph won't sync CB and Conflag. The CB cooldown doesn't start until after the spell has finished casting, but Conflag is instant and it's cooldown starts when it's cast.

With Chaosbolt Glyph, no haste.

0 sec - Conflag, cooldown begins.
1.5 sec - Chaosbolt start cast
3.5 sec - Chaosbolt is cast, cooldown begins
10 sec - Conflag cooldown up
13.5 sec - Chaosbolt cooldown is up

Unless there is some tricky maths I am missing somewhere, getting them to line up would be very difficult.

ps. nice to see another Warlock using the Egg