Elitist Jerks The Mage Equivalent: The Destruction Warlock

 12/21/09, 4:27 PM #1321 Zeromas Glass Joe   Zeromas Orc Warlock   Echo Isles delete Last edited by Zeromas : 12/23/09 at 1:50 PM.
 12/21/09, 6:14 PM #1322 bastetswarrior Glass Joe   Urbanprey Human Warlock   Terenas Seed of Corruption vs Rain of Fire I've seen several questions recently about whether Seed of Corruption (SoC) or Rain of Fire (RoF) is better for a given spec, none of which have been able to find a mathematically supported thread comparing the two. I'd appreciate feedback on the following argument in the worst case of the Destro lock, that SoC outperforms RoF in dps. So, as of 3.3, SoC should be the AoE of choice for all specs. For simplicity we will assume hit capped, but it is easy to extend the model. Also, this analysis assumes seeds explode before the next seed finishes casting, justified either by the damage output or tab seeding. Let N be number of targets. $c_r$ crit rate as decimal for RoF $c_s$ crit rate as decimal for SoC $m_r$ crit multiplier for RoF $m_s$ crit multiplier for SoC $d_r$ damage non crit RoF $d_s$ damage non crit SoC $h$ haste as a decimal $t_r$ cast time for tick of RoF in seconds $t_s$ cast time for SoC in seconds Recall also RoF ticks every 2 seconds before haste. For i either r (RoF) or s (SoC), we have Total Expected AOE_i damage: $N*[(c_i)*m_i*d_i + (1-c_i)*d_i]$ which is equal to $N*d_i*[c_i*m_i + (1-c_i)]$ Expected AOE DPS_i is Total Expected AOE damage / $t_i$ Destruction spec sample values using Chaotic Skyflare Diamond (CSD) Meta: $N= 3$ $c_s= .3$ $c_r= c_s + .05$ from Devastation talent $m_s= 1.54$ (extra from CSD) $m_r= 2.09$ (extra from CSD) $d_s= 2777$ $d_r= 1842$ $h= .15$ $t_r= 2.0 / (1 + h) = 1.74$ $t_s= 2.0 / (1 + h) = 1.74$ Plugging these values into the previous formula, we obtain: Total RoF Expected AOE damage = 7634 Total SoC Expected AOE damage = 9680 RoF AOE DPS = 4370 damage/sec SoC AOE DPS = 5566 damage/sec So, Seed of Corruption is the clear winner at this gear level even for the worst case of the Destro lock. It is also fairly clear there would need to be a very sizable decrease in the gap between $d_s$ and $d_r$ for RoF to be competitive. According to wowwiki, the spellpower coefficient for SoC is 16.6% while for RoF it is 8.3% per tick. This means even at higher gear levels, SoC will continue to dominate RoF. Please comment and advise of any needed correction. Wowwiki SoC Page: Seed of Corruption - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft Wowwiki RoF Page: Rain of Fire - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
 12/21/09, 6:59 PM #1323 Warlocomotif Don Flamenco     Warlocomotif Human Warlock   Emerald Dream (EU) I considered creating a thread regarding AoE DPS a while ago, but with SoC being buffed in 3.3 and SoC now also hitting the target you cast it on- there's really no point. SoC produces superiour DPS. Only use Rain of Fire if you are somehow incredibly mana restrained or if its very likely that your target would die before SoC hit. I did not check your math. The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.
12/23/09, 3:01 PM   #1324
alhill
Von Kaiser

Gnome Warlock

Vek'nilash
 Originally Posted by Warlocomotif I considered creating a thread regarding AoE DPS a while ago, but with SoC being buffed in 3.3 and SoC now also hitting the target you cast it on- there's really no point. SoC produces superiour DPS. Only use Rain of Fire if you are somehow incredibly mana restrained or if its very likely that your target would die before SoC hit. I did not check your math.
RoF has some other niche advantages:

Main reason you would use RoF over SoC is to prevent aggro pulls. Specifically, a fight like Sarth comes to mind, where new adds are constantly spawning, and SoC has a tendency to pop them before they every get to the AOE tank. RoF has a slower "pulse" than SoC (which you will sometimes have 3 or 4 pop at once) and it is targetable to an area, so it is safer to use.

Also, RoF has advantages on a fight like Iron Counsel, middle difficulty, where you can AOE a spot before the adds arrive for instant damage upon spawning.

Basically, anytime I am AOEing something that can one shot me, I will use RoF, while on targets that need two or three cracks to kill me, I will SoC.

But there is no question that for pure aoe dps, SoC is probably the most lethal AOE spell in the game.

12/23/09, 4:13 PM   #1325
Warlocomotif
Don Flamenco

Human Warlock

Emerald Dream (EU)
 Originally Posted by alhill RoF has some other niche advantages: Main reason you would use RoF over SoC is to prevent aggro pulls. Specifically, a fight like Sarth comes to mind, where new adds are constantly spawning, and SoC has a tendency to pop them before they every get to the AOE tank. RoF has a slower "pulse" than SoC (which you will sometimes have 3 or 4 pop at once) and it is targetable to an area, so it is safer to use. Also, RoF has advantages on a fight like Iron Counsel, middle difficulty, where you can AOE a spot before the adds arrive for instant damage upon spawning. Basically, anytime I am AOEing something that can one shot me, I will use RoF, while on targets that need two or three cracks to kill me, I will SoC. But there is no question that for pure aoe dps, SoC is probably the most lethal AOE spell in the game.
Those things don't really warant a thread on a theorycrafting orientated forum though.

The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.

 12/27/09, 6:12 AM #1326 Shinsui Glass Joe   Shinsui Human Warlock   Nathrezim So I've been trying to plan out my upgrades from ICC as far as tier upgrades and such. Being a huge destro warlock fan since prebc, I like the look of the stats on all the tier10 pieces, sans the no spirit. Since I havent really seen any discussion on which 4 pieces to use and why, I wanted to know what others thought. Also, I've been away too long from these forums and did not realize that because of the high ammount of spirit on our gear now that the glyph of lifetap had overtaken the glyph of immolate as being the superior glyph. My quesion, unless someone can point me to the math in a previous post, is at what level of spirit does the lifetap glyph outdps the immolation glyph?
12/27/09, 10:00 AM   #1327
Talon
Glass Joe

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Shinsui So I've been trying to plan out my upgrades from ICC as far as tier upgrades and such. Being a huge destro warlock fan since prebc, I like the look of the stats on all the tier10 pieces, sans the no spirit. Since I havent really seen any discussion on which 4 pieces to use and why, I wanted to know what others thought. Also, I've been away too long from these forums and did not realize that because of the high ammount of spirit on our gear now that the glyph of lifetap had overtaken the glyph of immolate as being the superior glyph. My quesion, unless someone can point me to the math in a previous post, is at what level of spirit does the lifetap glyph outdps the immolation glyph?
It really depends on what spec of destro ur going to play. None of the set pieces are "weak"(Like the robes in t9). Really comes down to spec. So far from wat I've seen the leggings and gloves are the best 2 slots to put an non-set item in.

3/13/54 +1 spec the leggings seem to be a better pick since the hit cap is lower.
0/13/58 or 0/18/53 the gloves would be the best slot to put a non-set item in.

The amount of haste on gear is really astounding 30% haste unbuffed won't be uncommon.

 12/27/09, 10:22 AM #1328 dottz Glass Joe   Dottz Gnome Warlock   Emerald Dream (EU) Was also wondering on people opinions concerning frost badges. Do we think buying a tier piece is best even if we aren't going to use it, just to save to upgrade? Or is buying the belt / cape a better option at the moment as an actual current upgrade. Personally Rhadatip is telling me belt / cape is an increase while tier is a decrease.
 12/27/09, 1:15 PM #1329 hertzuk Glass Joe     Hertzy Human Warlock   Outland (EU) Tier piece will probably be a decrease until you get to 2-set bonus. See the SimCraft thread for set boni weights.
12/27/09, 8:13 PM   #1330
Vicieus
Banned

Orc Warlock

Lightninghoof
 Originally Posted by Warlocomotif Err I built a hit capped gear set with 1k spirit and 4xT10. I used a few veiled ametrines but only in yellow sockets. Profiler - Wowhead Only wowhead is currently dead it seems.
Watch out for "stacking" spirit and ignoring pure sp.

867 spirit=289sp (passive fel armor sp) + 173.4 (life tap glyph)= 462sp
2951sp + 462 = 3413

370 spirit. 123.33 + 74 = 197.33
3394 + 197.33 = 3591.33

difference ~ 178.33 sp

not to mention a ton more crit and slighty more haste. Would love to have that chest instead of the crafted pants, but oh well.

p.s. some of your gems on the profiler got knocked out. I replaced them with straight sp (even though it can leave you under hit cap--more to prove a point, I guess.)

also didn't use reign of the dead or another sp trinket to beat your sp.

Last edited by Vicieus : 12/27/09 at 9:10 PM.

12/27/09, 10:49 PM   #1331
Warlocomotif
Don Flamenco

Human Warlock

Emerald Dream (EU)
 Originally Posted by Vicieus Watch out for "stacking" spirit and ignoring pure sp. "wlockdemot10x4" Profiler - Wowhead 867 spirit=289sp (passive fel armor sp) + 173.4 (life tap glyph)= 462sp 2951sp + 462 = 3413 "Vicieus' Profiler - Wowhead 370 spirit. 123.33 + 74 = 197.33 3394 + 197.33 = 3591.33 difference ~ 178.33 sp not to mention a ton more crit and slighty more haste. Would love to have that chest instead of the crafted pants, but oh well. p.s. some of your gems on the profiler got knocked out. I replaced them with straight sp (even though it can leave you under hit cap--more to prove a point, I guess.) also didn't use reign of the dead or another sp trinket to beat your sp.
I created that profile when Wowhead didn't have half the items it has now, the items selected were simply best in slot at the time.
 I also created it as a Demo raid DPS BiS list (Now outdated) [/edit]

Mind you, you are doing something wrong in your calcs.
867 spirit is 512 sp before kings and before human racial- if you account for both you end up with 580 sp from that spirit.

I'm not saying my profile is better, it's outdated and im pretty sure I could make a better one now. What U an saying though is that I wasn't hogging spirit at all costs- I simply made a gear profile based on raid dps scale factors. I think I assumed 9 casters; even if you don't get 9 dps casters in your raids- 7 dps casters is reasonable, then there's a handful of melee that gets some benefit, and there are healers who get a benefit. ie; 9 is probably a reasonable number, possibly low.

I'll work out a new profile.

Last edited by Warlocomotif : 12/27/09 at 10:54 PM.

The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.

12/28/09, 10:32 AM   #1332
Krazen
Don Flamenco

Blood Elf Warlock

Turalyon
 Originally Posted by Shinsui So I've been trying to plan out my upgrades from ICC as far as tier upgrades and such. Being a huge destro warlock fan since prebc, I like the look of the stats on all the tier10 pieces, sans the no spirit. Since I havent really seen any discussion on which 4 pieces to use and why, I wanted to know what others thought. Also, I've been away too long from these forums and did not realize that because of the high ammount of spirit on our gear now that the glyph of lifetap had overtaken the glyph of immolate as being the superior glyph. My quesion, unless someone can point me to the math in a previous post, is at what level of spirit does the lifetap glyph outdps the immolation glyph?
Gloves are the best piece to not buy, IMO.

You have 2 options for 264 ilvl gloves with 2 sockets (one of which is already available from gunship), 2 corresponding 277 gloves, and 2 more 10 man ilvl 264 gloves later on, all of which beat the tier gloves.

Legs, well, you have the crafted ones.

12/28/09, 6:16 PM   #1333
Vicieus
Banned

Orc Warlock

Lightninghoof
 Originally Posted by Warlocomotif I created that profile when Wowhead didn't have half the items it has now, the items selected were simply best in slot at the time.  I also created it as a Demo raid DPS BiS list (Now outdated) [/edit] Mind you, you are doing something wrong in your calcs. 867 spirit is 512 sp before kings and before human racial- if you account for both you end up with 580 sp from that spirit. I'm not saying my profile is better, it's outdated and im pretty sure I could make a better one now. What U an saying though is that I wasn't hogging spirit at all costs- I simply made a gear profile based on raid dps scale factors. I think I assumed 9 casters; even if you don't get 9 dps casters in your raids- 7 dps casters is reasonable, then there's a handful of melee that gets some benefit, and there are healers who get a benefit. ie; 9 is probably a reasonable number, possibly low. I'll work out a new profile.
My calculations were off, but I think these should be correct. This is all self buffed (minus felpup) without human racial (Not all us locks are alliance humans = P)

Fel Armor

Surrounds the caster with fel energy, increasing spell power by 180 plus additional spell power equal to 30% of your Spirit. In addition, you regain 2% of your maximum health every 5 sec. Only one type of Armor spell can be active on the Warlock at any time. Lasts 30 min.

30% of 867 spirit is 260.1sp

Glyph of Life tap

Use: When you use Life Tap or Dark Pact, you gain 20% of your Spirit as spell power for 40 sec.

20% of 867 spirit is 173.4sp

260 + 173=433 sp

2951 sp + 433 sp = 3384sp

mine:

50% of 370 spirit is 185sp

3394sp + 185sp=3569sp

~185 sp difference.

I'm not trying to--like they say in England; have a go at you or take the piss or anything like that. I understand this was made before real loot lists were out, but i'm just trying to get a grasp of a "best in slot" pre-hard modes--not just for destro, but demo and afflic as well (10m hard modes don't count) loot list while staying at 14% hit. I think its a lot harder to determine a true bis list for warlocks than most other classes (it's a lot easier to find one for my feral tank. thinktank is amazing.)

on a lighter note Warlocomotif you've gotten me interested in demo--that and looking at my sp for 10m totgc the other day and seeing myself with 3880sp with flask, life tap, spirit, 8% kings, shaman totems (obviously wouldn't translate over if demo) as destro. Id probably be at or break 4k with demonic knowledge.

Also id go demonology to mainly benefit healers because the way Icecrown is going they'll need all the benefits they can get.

P.S. Going to use crafted gear to get geared faster, spend less dkp, and most importantly improve my dmg/dps to help with soon to come progression.

12/29/09, 1:14 AM   #1334
Damagejack
Glass Joe

Eredar
 Originally Posted by dottz Was also wondering on people opinions concerning frost badges. Do we think buying a tier piece is best even if we aren't going to use it, just to save to upgrade? Or is buying the belt / cape a better option at the moment as an actual current upgrade. Personally Rhadatip is telling me belt / cape is an increase while tier is a decrease.
Are you putting in the Tier set bonus values? But either way, buy the tier. So even if the 251 is a smaller upgrade than the cape or gloves, all you will need is a token to upgrade those in the future. Frost badge farming is a little slow right now, so I would save them for tier. You can get a really nice cloak off of saurfang 25 that is better than the badge cloak. And once the new voa boss comes out, the gloves will tier gloves will be pretty easy to get, as well as the gunship gloves.

 12/30/09, 7:18 PM #1335 bastetswarrior Glass Joe   Urbanprey Human Warlock   Terenas SoC > RoF Indeed Warlockmotif, SoC over RoF for higher average dps is now fairly clear to me, but previously it wasn't. To complete the discussion, I'd like to verify how the final spell damage is calculated. Calidus nicely worked out a formula in Dots and you: The Affliction Warlock Thread of non crit spell damage = (Average Base Value + (Coefficent * Spell Power))*talents*(% dmg multipliers like CoE) is that formula correct? I would be more than happy to check in game but I won't be able to for several days.

 Elitist Jerks The Mage Equivalent: The Destruction Warlock