Absolutely.

Has anyone considered the possibility of using Backdraft to resummon an Imp if it dies (or maybe even if it runs out of mana)?

Fel Domination + Backdraft = 3.15s cast for an imp and could go under 3s with a moderate amount of haste. (Assuming you have Fel Domination but not Master Summoner so you could only do this once a fight)
Master Summoner + Backdraft = 4.2s cast and can obviously be further reduced with additional haste

Only thing to consider at that point is if summoning an imp is worth using a Backdraft charge that could have been used for a nuke. I suppose it would really depend on how long was left in the fight. Also of consideration is the mana cost (64% of base mana for Imp reduced by 50% by Fel Domination and 40% by Master Summoner) and whether or not it's worth the additional loss of DPS due to having to life tap. Unfortunately I don't know what base mana is at 80 offhand so I can't even guess about it.

Backdraft only reduces the cast time of destruction spells.

Well, there goes that idea. Oh well.

I have a question regarding gear and hit for Destruction.

Is it worth capping Affliction hit for Destruction spam templates, purely for Corruption and CoA (and, I suppose, Soulshatter)?

With Cataclysm and a +3% from raid buffs it seems you'd need 289 hit rating to cap your Immolate and Incinerate. This would leave your Affliction spells (and Soulshatter) with a 3% miss rate. Is it worth budgeting the additional 79 hit needed to cap these spells or taking +spell in it's place? Which has the actual best DPS return?

The math has shown that after capping destro, each point in hit rating is worth 0.1-0.2 dps, so no, it is not worth it.

I remember reading it somewhere here on EJ, so just read up on the other threads on the first page or so. It may be a few hundred posts to read, but you learn a lot. Although, if you think about it yourself - You use corruption and a curse. You cast them a total of say 20 times on a boss fight. Just keeping the destro hit cap would mean you'd have about a 3% chance to miss with an affliction spell. You may miss one or two instant cast spells, meaning you loose one or two GCD's. On the other hand, by not getting 75 more points of hit rating, you can get a lot of spellpower, crit and haste instead, meaning every spell will be more efficient and those one or two GCD's wÃ*ll be worth it.

I keep reading the patch notes that hopefully will take place NEXT week (or Soon anyway), and I want to verify that I am not going crazy...

Wasn't there something mentioned at one time about buffing Chaos Bolt by 20%? I thought I remembered reading that but I don't see it mentioned anymore.

Yes indeed, from 1050-1250 to 1250-1450 (not exact numbers but something like that).
I'm not sure how it scales with SP though, can anybody do some math on this to see the actual boosts of this?
And btw, aren't demo getting buffed? I read blizz was happy with affli and destro but felt demo needed a buff somewhere..

A couple of questions about your spec here.

1. Why would you get Soul Leech without getting Improved Soul Leech? I think it was in this thread somewhere that I read that ISL was approximately equal to Replenishment over the course of a boss fight, making it a huge reduction in the amount of times you'd need to Life Tap. Obviously the pet mana regen is a negligible bonus since my Imp never runs dry in raids anyway. But the Soul Leech proc by itself is fairly useless I would think, making the talent just expensive filler to get to ISL?

2. I think it was also in this thread that I saw some maths stating that Improved Curse of Agony was a negligible DPS increase, and was far underbudget for a 2 point talent. Can anyone confirm/deny this?

So I was thinking, if ISL is worth getting and ICoA is not, you could swap those two affliction points into ISL.
If ISL isn't worth getting, you'd take those 3 points out of SL and put them elsewhere... Demonology perhaps?
If ICoA and ISL aren't worth getting, you could perhaps get Fel Dom, Soul Link and 3/5 Unholy Power? (4/5 if you drop Shadowfury too?).

Thoughts/opinions/corrections appreciated.

EDIT: Found the ICoA post.

They also said they were looking into potentially simplifying Affliction's rotation and doing a major shard overhaul.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Warlock PvE feedback

Have anyone compared the damage between Master Demonologist, Backdraft, and Empowered Imp? The specs being 0/28/43 or 30/40+1.

30/40 + 1 (one of the specs being discussed): Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

28/43 (Backdraft can be shifted to EI instead): Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

MD may possibly be better on a still target (i.e. Patchwerk), BD will most likely be more useful for fights that require movement (Sapphiron, Malygos, etc.) and EI is largely Imp dependent which may be a bigger increase for non-AoE fights. These are obviously all factors to keep into consideration but I'm not expecting any math to be done on the varying boss fights but let's assume it's on a still target like Patchwerk to have a standard.

I'm pretty terrible with theorycrafting but seeing as how MD gives roughly ~4% damage (since it is missing 2 points) and if Backdraft/EI was 3/3, would that net an increase in DPS? I'm aware that there are variations on what to do with the 3 charges of BD so that would obviously turn out different results but it would be interesting to see. I didn't see the two 28/43 being discussed and decided to see if anyone did any numbers on them.

EDIT: After doing some math, my math shows me that they are roughly the same with 5/5 MD coming out slightly ahead of BD by about 25 DPS if BD is used for Immolate and 2x Incinerate, however, if the BD is used for Immolate and 2x Soul Fire, then BD will come out with about 141 DPS ahead.

Here is my shotty theorycraft math if anyone is interested in looking it over and see if there are any mistakes. This is all under the assumption that there is no haste involved and it is 2000 spell power.

2.8 second Soul Fire with Backdraft:
1490 (base damage) + 2000 (from spell power) = 3490 damage
3490/2.8 = 1246 DPS

2.25 second Incinerate without BD (with 3/5 MD):
629 (base damage) + 157 (with Immolate up) = 786 damage
786 + 1820 (0.91 coefficient with S&F and 2000 spell power) = 2606 damage
2606/2.25 = 1158 DPS

2.25 second Incinerate with 5/5 MD:
2606*1.04 (from 2/5 MD) = 2710 damage
2710/2.25 = 1205 DPS

1.6 second Incinerate with BD (with 3/5 MD):
2606/1.6 = 1629 DPS

1.5 second Immolate without BD (with 3/5 MD and Glyph of Immolate):
501 (direct damage) + 400 (0.2 coefficient * 2000 spell power) = 901 direct damage
942 (DoT) + 1300 (0.65 coefficient * 2000 spell power) = 2242 DoT
2242 (Immolate DoT) - 448 (one Immolate tick clipped by Conflag) = 1794 DoT
1794 + 901 = 2695 total damage with clip
2695/1.5 = 1797 DPCT

1.5 second Immolate with 5/5 MD:
501 (direct damage)*1.02 (2/5 MD for 2% crit) = 519 damage
2242 (Immolate DoT) + 519 (direct damage) = 2761 damage
2761*1.02 (2% damage from 2/5 MD) = 2816 damage
2816/1.5 = 1877 DPCT

1 second Immolate with BD (with 3/5 MD):
2695 (after one clipped tick)/1 = 2695 DPCT

1.5 (GCD) Conflagrate:
860 (base damage) + 800 (0.4 coefficient with 2000 spell power) = 1660 damage
1660 - 448 (one Immolate tick) = 1212 damage
1212/1.5 = 808 DPCT

Over the course of 15 seconds with BD (3/5 MD):
Conflagrate used once every 12 seconds = 808 DPCT
1 Immolate used during BD = 2695 DPCT
2 Incinerate used during BD = 1629 DPS each (2606 damage each)
4 Incinerate used without BD = 1158 DPS (2606 damage each)
808 + 2695 + 2606(2) + 2606(4) = 19139 over 15 seconds (1275 DPS)

Over the course of 14.6 seconds with BD (3/5):
Conflagrate used once every 12 seconds = 808 DPCT
1 Immolate used during BD = 2695 DPCT
2 Soul Fire used during BD = 1246 DPS (3490 damage each)
4 Incinerate used without BD = 1158 DPS (2606 damage each)
808 + 2695 + 3490(2) + 2606(4) = 20229 over 14.6 seconds (1441 DPS)

Over the course of 13.5 seconds (5/5 MD):
1 Immolate = 1914 DPCT
6 Incinerate = 1205 DPS (2606 damage each)
1914 + 2606(6) = 17550 over 13.5 seconds (1300 DPS)

Something looks odd with my math, at least against my intuition. Soul Fire with BD is listed as dealing less than Incinerate with BD but it comes out with more damage when put into a rotation. Something must be wrong... Regardless, I'm sure it's a very rough sample and if anyone want to correct me and/or come up with different math, you are more than welcome to.

I see a lot of 0/41/30 v. 0/30/41 flying around, and questions on where those last points go. I will try to help with personal experience and advice.


0/41/30 - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Reasons for this specific build: Aftermath is a throw-away point, pretty much can't help your DPS elsewhere. Woot for a soloing perk. Mana Feed may not help you, because your Felguard should just be cleaving and may keep mana up untalented, but I don't see a DPS benefit elsewhere. If Felguard can't survive (Heigan/Saph/Onyx Guardian), Pull out an Imp and keep it Phase Shifted.

Benefits of Felguard build over Imp build:

• Hardier pet, better chance to live if it takes some hits

• Felguard has better DPS over Imp

• 2% more crit with talents

• Demonic Knowledge, good straight Spell Power buff

0/30/41 - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Reasons for this specific build: Again, Nether Protection is a throwaway, but better raid viability. I pick Shadowfury because a lot of T7 raids are add-heavy, and with Gluth, Gothic, Malygos, etc, proccing Molten Core on adds in any fight, and an attack to use on the run with fully applied DoTs and Life Tap'd out, I feel it has more utility than a 10% increase in Imp crit or 5% Imp damage and a teeeny Crit buff to you. It is also an excuse to see what Shadowfury looks like . No Mana Feed because my Imp manages to keep mana full in our raids, that's probably Replenishment at work.

Benefit of Imp build over Felguard build:

• You can keep it from taking damage more easily than the Felguard by parking it in a safe place. Firebolt has a range close to 40 yards.

• 20% Incinerate Spell Power coefficient bonus. HUGE buff.

• You get an extra point to put in DE, Imp. Imp, or Shadowfury that you don't have the freedom to with 0/41/30.

• Less talent points invested in the pet to "make it work"

• You don't get Demonic Tactics, but the Felguard's MD Bonus is only 5% damage and 5% less damage taken, while the Imp's MD bonus is 5% Fire damage and 5% Fire crit. You also get Backlash, 3% crit, that you don't with Felguard. Seeing as only Immolate and Incinerate should be critting with your rotation as either spec, it is effectively 8% crit compared to Demo's 10%. However, 5% of the crit from MD is "free" because you spend the same points in it as Felguard but don't get the useless 5% less damage taken, the 3% from Backlash is good in itself because anything else would be useless for DPS advancing to SnF, and the 5 points 0/41/30 spends to get that 10% crit is on the same tier as SnF, but SnF is a much better use of talent points. What I am trying to say, I think, is that even though it looks like 0/31/41 gets 2% less crit, they still get the better deal.

Now, having raided as both specs, I find 0/30/41 (which I fondly call Pimped-out Imp) the better DPS personally. My best WWS is in a 10 man, I will check back in once my purples improve and I can get a 4-piece bonus. Affliction is too much for me, I don't see good results with Chaos Bolt specs atm, I really think this is the way to go.

My rotation is CoA, Immolate, Incinerate. Nice and easy for great DPS. Glyphs are Imp, Immolate, and CoA (just to use less GCDs because no other Major glyph really helps). I Sac the Imp on Onyx Guardian, Saph, and Heigan, because without Demonic Knowledge it is just 5% fire dam 5% fire crit from Master Demo v. 10% fire damage from a sac (the better choice), and sacrificing the Imp will give me the freedom to use an Infernal or Doomguard (if they don't override the sacrifice buff, confirmation needed) once I get the hang of it. I Use CoD when the boss or I am/is going away for a while, use Corruption/Life Tap/instant damaging moves while moving, standard tricks to bump DPS up.


So there you go. I don't think 0/41/30 or even a Chaos Bolt build or anyone who isn't a freak at Affliction should spec anything but 0/30/41. I know it is just words and spec comparisons right now, but once my gear is less meh-purples and more best-I-can-get-purples I will check back in with hard numbers.

Simulationcraft shows 0/41/30 beats 0/31/40 at current gear levels. It's pretty close, though, so go with whatever you prefer (ie. whether you prefer raiding with an imp or a felguard).

That's for 25-mans, I'm guessing 31/40 might have an edge in most 10-mans because of a lack of melee raid buffs for the felguard.

How much haste is too much haste? At my current gear level of 1/3 ten man raid gear and 2/3 25 man, 3 pieces of T7.5, I am at 550 haste in raids, and as a 20/51 destruction build, it has been giving me some global cooldown problems and has been creating quite a bit of DPS downtime due to lifetapping it would seem.

The main question is, is it worth ditching some haste/crit heavy gear for spirit/crit gear at 550+ haste?
The World of Warcraft Armory is my Armory page.

btw, my spec may seem a bit screwy, but it has master summoner/Fel Dom for the latter portion of Naxx 25, construct wing and Saph.

Hmm. Damn. I guess my point is that 0/30/41 is easier to pull off than 0/41/30, at least in my experience, and I can see it scaling better in the future thanks to SnF.

If you feel bad playing any game just stop. Main reason to bother with wow is to have FUN

Use whatever spec you like, to be honest they're all within 10-15% of dps assuming same skill/gear level.

That was my thoughts as well.

I'll be regemming due to an Affliction -> Destro-ish spec, what should I roll with? Back to dmg/haste like I had before? Or is straight dmg better? With dmg/haste gems, I'd have 600-700 haste unbuffed. Or should I get my hit up from 10.5% so that I don't have to invest in the hit talents?

And what about meta? I'm thinking the crit one is better than the spell dmg one.

Any thoughts on a 0/33/38 build. Basically going 3/3 DK and 3/5 SnF. Seems like 12% spell damage of pet's stamina and intellect might out weight 8% to incinerate. DK normally gives me about 200 spell power. Just a thought, I haven't been able to raid yet to try it out. Any advice or details that I may have missed?

@ Viper

If you're capped with raid buffs talents gem 100% spell power gems. Otherwise mix them with hit gems.

Best meta for destro specs is the 3% crit dmg (chaotic skyflare), use 2x [Perfect Purified Shadow Crystal] to activate it, then see above.

Never ever gem haste or crit for max dps. Haste gems MIGHT sometimes be justified to adjust your cast times (for example to fit 3rd shadowbolt before first haunt refresh).

Yeah, I am capped. 83% + 10% (gear) + 3% (talents) + 3% (shadow priests / booms -- always one in raid) + 1% Draeni in party (lots of them, so I can get moved into such a party and if not, it's only 1%) = 100%.

Okay, so +19 in red. What about yellow? Should I ignore socket bonus and do +19 as well? Or should I keep my current 9 dmg / 8 haste (orange)?

Oooh, good thinking. I've been using 9 dmg / 12 stam for some stupid reason. Time to regem my two blue sockets.

To evaluate each socket you'll have to have exact stat weights for your current gear.

Leulier's spreadsheet will help you.

My solution was to focus on raw spell power on gear and fill it with yellow gems in yellow sockets for killing two birds with one stone