Not as exotic as tanking Sarth+3 but a question I have anyway - cross posted from the DPS Spreadsheet thread as it's OT for both threads.
I've been playing with the spreadsheet and looking in particular at the dps stats for each of our pets. The prevailing wisdom in game atm seems to be that, discounting situational use of Infernal or DG, for Affliction spec Succubus is the best pet to use for DPS, followed by the Fel Hunter. However, the stats on the Pet DPS tab of the spreadsheet don't seem to reflect this.
With my current build 51/3/17 and gear the spreadsheet shows a clear advantage in raw dps for the Imp.
Imp : 445.23
Succy : 298.19
Fel Pup : 369.11
On top of this he also benefits from raid DPS buffs like totems or Moonkin Aura.
Add the fact that A ) he takes almost zero management, B) has enough HP to survive Splash / AoE / Boss Effect damage he might take while stood next to me and C) never goes OOM, and the Imp seems, on paper at least, to be by far the best Pet for Affliction spec.
Does anyone else have any solid data on this from raiding, am I right or have I missed something fundamental?
Your imp is doing significantly better damage because you've spent 5 talent points on it (as opposed to 2 on the succubus). Looking at your spec in comparison to the standard new affliction spec, you seem to have pulled 2 of those points from Eradication; with 1/3 Eradication, I'm guessing that you are still thinking of the talent in its pre-3.1 form. Previously, each point increased the chance of the proc, rather than the effect of the proc. Now, with every Corruption tick, there is a 6% chance to increase your casting speed by 6%/12%/20% (per point in Eradication); with no ICD, you can expect this to proc with relatively high frequency. In short, you are sacrificing 14% cast speed during Eradication for a ~62 dps increase from your imp. Pets obviously improve when you talent into them, but the affliction spec doesn't have 3 points you can sacrifice for Improved Imp. That said, the new affliction build does have a single awkward float point. 53/0/17 fills all our standard necessities, and putting the final point in Cataclysm (which is what I've been seeing most often) is relatively unhelpful considering how often we are now lifetapping.
I'm a little surprised at the fact that, with only Demonic Power, your imp would seem to still outperform your succubus (311.66 dps vs 298.19 dps). Comparing her to the felhunter, her dps seems pretty weak overall. Where are you getting these numbers? Are there buffs involved? Remember, the succubus also benefits from raid buffs, including all boni to strength and attack power. Also, the succubus' damage fluctuates based on how many times she's cast Lash of Pain, so her dps builds up over time more than does the imp's. It is my experience that the succubus scales considerably better than the imp with raid buffs (and the felhunter lags behind both), but the blessing of Demonic Power is that it buffs both your imp and succubus, allowing you to decide between the two based on the fight (neither bring utility, simply damage).
However, if you test them again with full raid buffs (this time with only one point in Improved Imp), and find the imp to still perform better, it could be worth putting that extra float point into Improved Imp and keeping him out at all times.
The figures I'm quoting are comming from the latest version of the DPS Spreadsheet.
Raid buffs accounted for are :
Prayer of Fortitude (2/2)
Arcane Intellect
Gift of the Wild
Improved Divine Spirit (2/2)
Blessing of Kings
Blessing of Wisdom
Wrath of Air Totem
Flametongue Totem
Heroic Presence
Improved Moonkin Aura 3
Vampiric Touch / Hunting Party / JoW
Mana spring totem
Heroism
These are the ones we typically have active.
51/3/17 using Imp gives a total DPS figure of 3904.75 of which the Imp contributes 532.51
53/1/17 using the Imp with one point in Imp. Imp and 3 in Eradication gives 3863.03 DPS with 451.61 from the Imp.
53/1/17 using Succubus with 3 points in Eradication and a point in Fel Vitality gives a DPS figure of 3729.92 of which teh Succy contributes 318.30.
On paper at least the buffed Imp build gives a DPS increase of 174.83 over the the accepted Succubus build.
The Eradication build with a minor Imp buff gives a DPS Increase of 133.11 over the Succy build.
These figures are supported by the stats from last nights 25 man Naxx run where I was consitantly hitting around 3.7k dps on the boss fights. Allowing for less than perfect rotations and interruptions due to movement this seems about right.
So, either :
I have missed something obvious,
The spreadsheet has a calculation error involving Eradication or Succubus DPS with Lash of Pain or,
The Imp build does seem to be the better option for Affliction spec.
---Edit
Edited for clarity and after I realised the Spreadsheet resets glyphs when you import talents into the DPS tab...
In the math section of Namnalia's Dots and you thread, she calculates that the average uptime for Eradication is 18.6%. That would mean that the points in Eradication would each be a rough increase of 1.116%/1.116%/1.488% overall haste. This is equivalent to 36.59/36.59/48.79 haste rating. By her most recent calculation, there is a dps increase of about 0.764 dps per point in haste. That would mean that Eradication provides a dps increase of 27.95/27.95/37.28.
Simcraft figures haste to be worth a dps increase 0.97 per point in haste, which would increase the dps value of Eradication to 35.49/35.49/47.33. However, I feel that the simcraft estimation is a little high, considering that in a given raid (especially a 25 man), you're going to have enough haste buffs (Improved Moonkin, Wrath of Air) to put you well over 20% haste pre-Heroism/Bloodlust. Once you hit 50% haste, of course, the dps increase of haste drops straight to 0.
Your numbers suggest that, with Demonic Power a given, each point in Improved Imp increases your dps by roughly 41 dps per point. Given your raid composition, I think the 51/3/17 seems to be the winner here. The only reservation I have is that I have yet to see, in my experience, an untalented imp's damage exceed a succubus' (even with Demonic Power for both). Again, I think raid buffs must be a significant part of this - I notice that in your list of buffs you don't have Battle Shout, Icy Talons, or other melee buffs which are what boost the majority of the succubus' damage (about 83% of her damage is melee, 17% is Lash of Pain).
In general, I am reluctant to spec too heavily into a pet at the cost of talents buffing my own abilities, especially pets as fragile as the imp or succubus, because I can keep dpsing if they die (it doesn't work the other way). On the other hand, Eradication seems to be a less potent talent than I had previously believed, and as our haste rating increases, its benefits plummet. With all this in mind, if your raid composition is light on the melee buffs, going for 1 point in Eradication and 3 in Improved Imp could definitely offer a dps increase.
In the math section of Namnalia's Dots and you thread, she calculates that the average uptime for Eradication is 18.6%. That would mean that the points in Eradication would each be a rough increase of 1.116%/1.116%/1.488% overall haste. This is equivalent to 36.59/36.59/48.79 haste rating. By her most recent calculation, there is a dps increase of about 0.764 dps per point in haste. That would mean that Eradication provides a dps increase of 27.95/27.95/37.28.
Simcraft figures haste to be worth a dps increase 0.97 per point in haste, which would increase the dps value of Eradication to 35.49/35.49/47.33. However, I feel that the simcraft estimation is a little high, considering that in a given raid (especially a 25 man), you're going to have enough haste buffs (Improved Moonkin, Wrath of Air) to put you well over 20% haste pre-Heroism/Bloodlust. Once you hit 50% haste, of course, the dps increase of haste drops straight to 0.
Your numbers suggest that, with Demonic Power a given, each point in Improved Imp increases your dps by roughly 41 dps per point. Given your raid composition, I think the 51/3/17 seems to be the winner here. The only reservation I have is that I have yet to see, in my experience, an untalented imp's damage exceed a succubus' (even with Demonic Power for both). Again, I think raid buffs must be a significant part of this - I notice that in your list of buffs you don't have Battle Shout, Icy Talons, or other melee buffs which are what boost the majority of the succubus' damage (about 83% of her damage is melee, 17% is Lash of Pain).
In general, I am reluctant to spec too heavily into a pet at the cost of talents buffing my own abilities, especially pets as fragile as the imp or succubus, because I can keep dpsing if they die (it doesn't work the other way). On the other hand, Eradication seems to be a less potent talent than I had previously believed, and as our haste rating increases, its benefits plummet. With all this in mind, if your raid composition is light on the melee buffs, going for 1 point in Eradication and 3 in Improved Imp could definitely offer a dps increase.
I take your point about the buffs, but would they add 175 dps to the succubus? Instinct tells me not, but I don't have the figures to check that.
I also take the point about buffing the pet rather than yourself but again, in the case of the Imp, I think this works. Raid buffed he has 17k + HP. The only damage he is going to take is from AoE / Splash / Boss effects that are also going to hit me. If I'm not taking damage neither is he. There is much less chance of the Imp getting one or two shotted by those sources than for a Succubus in Melee range of a boss with Aura effects or cleave style attacks. So far my Imp hasn't died in anything other than a raid wipe situation.
As long as I make sure the imp follows me when I have to move he's fine and he can keep dps'ing even when the Melee pets have to be pulled out to avoid dying. With the succubus this is compounded by the fact that stopping DPS stops Lash of Pain building as well.
I'm not claiming this is an infallible argument but I do think the Imp deserves a lot more respect as a dps pet than he gets atm.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine Drain Soul continues to scale with haste above 50%.
You're not wrong at all, I just hadn't thought it through properly. It's a good point: our channels (Drain Soul and Drain Life) will continue to benefit from any amount of haste.
Gorf, melee raid buffs alone increase my succubus' damage by more than 175 dps. I don't have the precise numbers at hand, but I know I've seen her melee dps rise from 358.8 (absolutely no buffs) to nearly 500 dps. Here are some of the possible melee buffs to receive and their overall dps increase (calculations based on in-game pet tab):
Battle Shout gives 548 attack power (39.15 melee dps)
Commanding Presence gives an additional 137 attack power to Battle shout (9.79 dps)
Blessing of Might increases 550 attack power (39.29 melee dps)
Horn of Winter increases Strength by 155 (5.71 melee dps)
Strength of Earth totem increases Strength by 155 (5.71 melee dps)
Mark of the Wild increases Strength by 37 (1.36 melee dps)
Improved Mark of the Wild gives an additional 14.8 Strength (0.55 melee dps)
Blessing of Kings increases Strength by 10% ([0.0037*Strength] melee dps)
Pet food increases Strength by 30 (1.1 melee dps)
Improved Icy Talons increases melee attack speed by 20%
Windfury Totem by 16% (20% if talented)
Heroism increases melee attack speed by 30%
Obviously you can't have all these up at once (Battle Shout and Might, for example, don't stack), but given an average 25 man raid, you can expect at least some of these to be in effect. Moving on to spell buffs (for Lash of Pain):
Blessing of Kings increases Intelligence by 10%, which in turn increases spell crit chance by (0.0013*Base Int)
Mark of the Wild increases Intelligence by 37 (0.49% to crit)
Improved Mark of the Wild increases Intelligence by an additional 14.8 (0.2% to crit)
Elemental Oath increases spell crit chance by 5%
Moonkin Aura increases spell crit chance by 5%
Totem of Wrath increases spell damage by 280 (46.67 dps) and chance to crit by 3%
Flametongue Totem increases spell damage by 144 (24 dps)
Demonic Pact increases spell damage by 10% for 12 seconds
The main difference between the spell buffs for the succubus and for the imp is that the imp benefits from spell haste effects and the succubus does not (Lash of Pain counts as a physical attack). I just ran some rough tests with the heroic target dummy and found that the net dps increase per point of pet spell damage comes out to:
Additionally, I found that roughly 44% of the imp's expected damage was resisted (that is, DPS against Heroic Dummy/DPS on paper = 0.56), and roughly 43% of the succubus' expected damage was resisted (combining Lash of Pain and melee). It seems, then, that they both scale roughly equally from spell damage and crit buffs, but the succubus gains melee buffs and the imp gains spell haste buffs. So again, this comes down to what raid buffs you have.
As far as taking damage goes, the succubus is hardly a powerhouse but with raid buffs I have her health pushing 26-27k. Also, like the imp, she has the Avoidance ability, which reduces AoE damage by an additional 80%. Your pet is safe from damage from things like Thaddius' polarity charges, so your succubus can continue to dps no matter what. I've also found that, with a bit of practice, it's relatively easy to move her about. The point about having to move is a good one, however, and in fights demanding high mobility, the imp might have the edge in providing consistent dps. Bottom line, I think either pet has its place, but unless you have a relatively irregular raid composition, there are too many situations where the succubus is the more effective pet to make spending points in Improved Imp worthwhile. With all due respect to the spreadsheet and its users and designers, it doesn't compare to active testing, and I suspect there must be a mistake in the spreadsheet or your calculations for the imp to be doing that much damage (I only have Open Office and can't use the spreadsheet). My advice would be to get a raid going, turn on the combat log, switch between pets, and go over the results after. If the imp significantly outperforms the succubus, I will be very surprised.
Out of curiosity, what is your standard raid set-up?
I take your point about the buffs, but would they add 175 dps to the succubus? Instinct tells me not, but I don't have the figures to check that.
I also take the point about buffing the pet rather than yourself but again, in the case of the Imp, I think this works. Raid buffed he has 17k + HP. The only damage he is going to take is from AoE / Splash / Boss effects that are also going to hit me. If I'm not taking damage neither is he. There is much less chance of the Imp getting one or two shotted by those sources than for a Succubus in Melee range of a boss with Aura effects or cleave style attacks. So far my Imp hasn't died in anything other than a raid wipe situation.
As long as I make sure the imp follows me when I have to move he's fine and he can keep dps'ing even when the Melee pets have to be pulled out to avoid dying. With the succubus this is compounded by the fact that stopping DPS stops Lash of Pain building as well.
I'm not claiming this is an infallible argument but I do think the Imp deserves a lot more respect as a dps pet than he gets atm.
Succubus advantage in Ulduar progress raids specifically derives from many points:
-She's a melee pet and requires less management: she will follow the boss where the tank leads it, that is to say out of void zones etc. I have yet to do a try with an imp on Iron council where the Imp gets out of the death rune early enough when asked to follow, often because he sometimes has to cross the whole of it to come to me.
-I like range talents for progression, as they allow for a larger error margin in placement on still relatively unknown encounters (I avoid spoiling when possible). Those range talents have to come from somewhere, hence I spend as few points as possible in pet enhancing talents and want the pet that does the most damage with the fewest talent investment.
-My own raid is a bit lacking in spell damage support (no ele shaman half of the time for exemple) and strong in melee support.
For reference, parsed from my WWS from last night in Ulduar with 7 boss kills, the succubus counted for 7% of my DPS, me doing an overall of 3370. Wow Web Stats
I am currently running a 53/0/18 Affliction spec without any pet enhancing talents.
-> Link
As you can see I dropped Nightfall and the Demonic Power talent for the extended range on both affliction and destruction, as the Spreadsheet told me that Nightfall was only worth around 50 dps for 2 points and I wanted to use the Felhunter.
I am now reconsidering my spec, planning to put a second point into Intensity as spell pushback seems to be quite disturbing on some fights in ulduar. As a consequence I am going to drop the Range talents again and this is where the Spreadsheet starts to get me confused.
The latest version of the sheet tells me, that the Imp is (way) better dps than Succubus and Felhunter, even without any pet enhancing talents and becomes even better as I start to put points into Demonic Power. Is there anything wrong with the spreadsheet? Maybe it's just my fault and I am making mistakes on the pet dps section, but I am quite sure that I considered all melee dps buffs and debuffs correctly.
The whole Spreadsheet thing throws up 2 questions to me:
1. Is the imp the best pet for Affliction (regardless of management issues, I always pick the harder way if I am rewarded for it)?
2. If I use the Imp, is the Glyph of Imp better than the Glyph of Curse of Agony? The Spreadsheet tells me to use the imp glyph, but I just can't believe that nobody else has come to that conclusion yet and therefore think that I am making mistakes.
p.s.: this would be my new spec using the imp and maybe the glyph of imp instead of the CoA one. 53/0/18
edit: After some experiments I discovered the error in die Spreadsheet that caused the imp to be better than the rest of the pets for affliction warlocks. It counts shaman spellpower totems for pets, which I could prove to be wrong ingame. My imp gets only 22 spellpower when in range of the 144 spellpower flametounge totem, which is the standard 15% of the spellpower increase that I get from the totem and nothing more. The Spreadsheet however would count that 144 spellpower directly to the imp. When I turn the totems off in the sheet the imp becomes weaker than the other pets again.
Is your imp phased? Because i don't find any reason the totem aura to be excluding the imp. I doubt the doubledipping of spellpower for the pet (22 mere SP for you) would actually count as one.
I looked at several pages here and it was so PVE dominated that I couldn't find anything about PVP pets so here is my take on it.
I run a Succubus during BGs and in the field. Since the Inferno requires no shard and his regents are cheap I drop him if the Succubus dies. I know a lot of people use the Felhound which is I suppose good against casts but having used both in BGs the Succubus still does an over all better job against all classes.
Some times I see people bringing Imp's and Voidwalkers to BGs or even using them in the field (I'm on a PVP server) and just can't imagine what they are thinking. Yes Imp does good Crit but dies easily and VW can bring a rider off their mount but doesn't do much damage.
What makes the Succy so superior is her ability to immobilize opponents and since Fear and Howl of Terror are pretty much useless unless you are Affliction spec'ed (and even then not so much) anything that helps survivability is a necessary thing.
People that use imp do so because its cheap (no shard) and they don't care. The VW has a couple of uses in pvp. 1 it has the ability to detect rogues and druids. 2 Its HP and armor or so high that when you soul link to it, its not going to get killed nor are people going to take the time to kill it giving you 20-25% mitigation, and it can be sacked for a shield that grants interrupt protection.
I just watched a video of 25 Man I Choose You Steelbreaker on youtube. They used Voidwalkers to tank Steelbreaker. Can this still be done or did they nerf it?
I saw a post in the simcraft thread regarding the use of a Doomguard with a deep destro build. I am currently running a 2/14/55 spec (trading 1 pt in Suppression for Soul link), I just switched from FG/ember where a DG is obviously not used.
I would like to know if i should be using a DG when available or if the improved imp spec gives the imp more dps. Thinking along the same lines, should i be dropping and infernal in the last 60 seconds of a boss to replace the imp?
I always thought of this play style only being viable for Affliction specs only, and i wouldn't want to change my destro spec away from improved imp, as this would hamstring my non DG dps.
I do keep up with the EJ warlocks section daily and do not recall seeing anything on this regarding tyhe 3.1.2 changes.
Well I must say for affliction i do agree that succubus is the best. Imp doesn't do to much dmg but blood pact is always good. Succubus does better dps than the felhunter, but the felhunter has good ability's as well. They are all good pets, but I use succubus and am fine.
after that I'm at a loss on converting to DPS. I tried using the Affliction thread's spell power to dps. With that I get something like spiced mammoth treasts giving a +4.662 dps and kibler's bits giving a +3.108 dps.
It doesn't seem like much, but I guess if you want every point possible, it is an option. Personally I'd use Kibler's Bits since Spiced Mammoth costs northern spices.
04/24/09, 4:09 PM
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