As 0/41/30, the 2pc bonus works out to about 4% crit for me on boss fights. I work out this calc by: [10% x (# of buff procs from WWS)/(# of incinerates + # of immolates)]

The only assumption embedded in this calculation is that I never waste a proc. (i.e. i cast incinerate or immolate at least once every 10 seconds).

I use a CoA, Corruption, Immolate, Incinerate rotation. My glyphs are FG, CoA, and immolate.

In my view, 4% crit for a 2pc bonus on the entry level set is pretty good. I'll keep monitoring over time to see if the 4% tends to hold up (i only have 1 week of reliable data right now since i played around with specs recently)

There is no reason you should ever be sacrificing stats for run speed in PvE.

Wrong, it has been mathematically proven that run speed is the best DPS you can get out of a boot enchant by far. I'll try and find it. But as an engineer, I use run speed meta because I use rocket boots. Also again and again saves my life with combo of teleport.

I agree, all raids should have unholy dk in them with UA, so everyone else can use better meta/enchants.

Exactly. In BC it did help to move quicker for a lot of fights which is why I used Boar's Speed, but I assume most guilds now carry an Unholy DK with them...they're so many out there.

Fair enough, but the point still stands, whether it be an 8% from enchants of 15% from aura, that that movement speed buff is important and worthwhile.

Note that if you ALWAYS, always have an unholy DK in the raid, and you always have the aura on you, then you can possibly make this statement with that cavaet. You can also make an argument that Icewalker is better if you need the +hit. You can make the arguement that it doesn't matter for most of the current content. But please don't make a generalization like this when it's patently false.

It's virtually impossible to quantify the value of a speed enchant without knowing the amount of running done. In a Patchwerk style fight, the value of a speed enchant is 0. On 4 Horsemen, it's greater than 0. But to know the exact value, you'd have to know what percentage of the total available DPS time is spent running. Saying that the speed enchant is better than Icewalker is a gut reaction, not an evidence based argument. It may actually be better, but there's probably no way to prove it.

Correct me if my memory fails me but the run speed math was initially done for a MT, the math regarding run time was then recalculated for dps and I think it was melee dps before someone did a caster dps version of it?

- It is very hard if not impossible to calculate the dps gain/loss with or without run speed in a average fight, it will also depend on what spec u have and if you have increased range etc.

- There is no right or wrong imo since it is entirely up to the fight and If you feel you need run speed you just change the enchant/gem when stuck on a encounter that needs either dps or fast running.

- This discussion can be debated around "do you need increased range talents" cause it is mainly about the same slight dps increase you might gain. I'm not sure what the general feeling is about that subject but I did not take Destructive reach in my FG/Emberstorm spec.

Like most people point out, if you state "OMG U are nabs if u take xxxx" you better back it up with facts/math

How does the run speed discussion apply to the topic of this thread?

Actually as I recall it was a simple matter of plugging a few numbers in to the equation.

It would be nice if someone could find that, though.

To my initial point, I agree that icewalker is generally superior to a run speed enchant, but if your choice was +25 spell damage/+int or +25 spell damage/run speed, then to me the run speed is a no brainer because the int has a very marginal dps upgrade.

I believe the logic stream moved sort of like this...

Spirit Tap? I can do that while running, since I may not have spells to cast (Instant DoT's already being applied and you needing to move) Well when running, how long will I spent running, why do I need to run? Run speed is greater then the other choices!

On that note, for various specs that take advantage of things like Demonic Knowledge the int boost does end up feeding back into a few extra damage. Creative use of Demonic Teleport or a DK with unholy aura certainly makes the Int / Spellpower meta better.

In either case, the idea of using Spirit tap while on the move in certain fights isn't new, and is a great use of the 4P bonus. From the ideas laid out earlier, the overall spell damage bonus seems worth it if you're other stats are taken care of by the remaining slot pieces. I'll leave it to someone else to lay out the math however. (I would be wrong)

You answered a question that was actually rhetorical. Run speed and the value of 4pc T7 not related.　　You don:t have to sacrifice one to get the other, as you might with say, a meta gem choice or a boot enchant.

My hope was to gently prod people into staying topical to the discussion, else this forum become 8 separate threads largely discussing the same thing, which isn't terribly useful in my view.

This is actually impossible to calculate as it is fight dependent, as it depends on how long you chain the LTs (tapping again before the buff fades), if the LT is taking away from DPS time, what type of buffs you are about to receive, or already have, etc.

It is no worse than the average spell power gain though. So if you have to tap 2 times a minute, then the gain is 100 sp * 20/60 = 33. If you are able to chain life taps to reduce the number of times you tap, you can then increase your DPS time, or you might be able to increase the average spell power value by life tapping during times that might be considered down times.

And you might need to chain LTs in 10-man content if you are without replenish, or even in 25-man content if you only have 1 (which is the case for us over the holiday period).

chardev.org - a World of Warcraft Character Planner - x is what I'm toying around with as my ideal end game set.

Personally, I'm not impressed with the the 4 piece t7 bonus: it's difficult to quantify just how useful it is but intuitively it seems weak in part because spirit is still a weak stat and because fights are so short.

If you ignore what spirit does to life tap, the spirit->dmg conversion is simply wasted item points when compared with pure +hit +haste +dmg or +crit. Until fights get much longer or seed heavy (more mu'ru-esque I suppose), the value of spirit will be very questionable. As it stands I could complete most of the fights in Naxx with just a raid buff mana returning abilities (replenishment + mana tide + mana pot) and almost eliminate my need to lifetap. Consequently, a set bonus that works to increase my damage for 10 seconds only after I life tap is going to be pretty weak, especially when on many fights like Sapphiron I'll be life tapping when I cannot be DPSing.

Here's a question... After trolling through most of the posts on these forums, i havent really found an answer to my 2 main questions, was hoping someone who is able to do maths could help me .

1) My spec right now is 0/14/57, and I'm loving it... My question here is... Since i dont have any points in ICoA, would it be more dps for me to use corruption for MC instead of CoA if i have the 2t7 set bonus?

2) During fights like Patchwerk with the 4t7 bonus, would it be better for me to spread out my lifetaps throughout the fight? or just do them all at once? I woudl assume the first option, but for some reason i think there's some kind of math that says it would be better to do all the LT at once.

THanks in advance for the help!

Some quick answers then:

1) Most likely no. Even though Corruption will probably increase your uptime of the 2T7-buff, the whole point of using COA instead is because it is longer (= more Incinerates) and it ticks faster (higher chance of proccing MC). Besides, it has a lower mana cost which will reduce your Life Taps (slighty though, but still).

2) This is still debateable AFAIK. When I'm playing Affliction now I try to Life Tap every 10 sec because I spend mana at an even rate (so if I LT every 10 sec I never go OOM or end up with too much mana). What you should do however is try to LT every time before putting up a new Immolate and COA.

Hope that helps. Any corrections are welcome.

Currently, all periodic effects (even drains) can proc the 2T7-bonus, not sure if they fixed it already (can anyone check on the PTR?)

Just checked on the PTR, CoA still procs it.

I believe the value of the 4p bonus scales directly with the amount of haste you are running.....I run 675 haste self buffed. As affliction I burn through an immense amount of mana thus have a great need to constantly LT. The more haste you have the more spells you are able to cast during buff uptime.

As of this moment in time I plan to keep the 4p bonus.....as there isnt enough gear in the leg/helm/glove/shoulder slot that is better than valor gear. I replaced the chest immediately....as it is very weak.....spellweave is amazing haste+sp power until I can get my hands on 2 drake sarth robe.

Disclaimer: I am very happy with lock dps right now....Maly and many of the naxx fights I have no problem rolling up as #1 dps...only rivaled by our dps war with KT 2hnd.

P.S.- runspeed on boots? are people serious? comeon....icewalker is THE ONLY PVE enchant.

Is this list still optimal? When plugging items into the current version of the spreadsheet, the following items appear to be higher ranked.

Shoulders: [Mantle of Dissemination]
Cloak: [Cape of the Unworthy Wizard]
Ring 2: [Lost Jewel]

Is this because I am a gnome or am I missing something/misusing the spreadsheet.