Highest DPS specs after patch - Page 17

calderstrake · 01/28/09, 6:12 PM

Originally Posted by Mirerilith

Damn thats a good effort, and only 42 percent crit, i really didn't expect that from that sort of spec.

Good effort! Has anybody run this through simcraft?

Unfortunately at this point, it is not possible to run an accurate simulation with a Metamorphosis spec because the abilities Immolation Aura and Shadow Cleave are not implemented. I put in a request to the devs to add this when possible.

Originally Posted by kylaran

On that note, Simcraft uses a raid setting but does not actually including boss kills, etc. correct? Is it similar to a test-dummy type situation that runs for a duration of time? Or am I wrong and pulling things out of my behind here?

Yes, SimCraft is more of a test dummy scenario, but as if you are in your raid, fully buffed and casting on a target dummy.

kylaran · 01/28/09, 7:14 PM

Originally Posted by trismegistus

Unfortunately at this point, it is not possible to run an accurate simulation with a Metamorphosis spec because the abilities Immolation Aura and Shadow Cleave are not implemented. I put in a request to the devs to add this when possible.

Yes, SimCraft is more of a test dummy scenario, but as if you are in your raid, fully buffed and casting on a target dummy.

Still, that means it can't model the effective use of Meta very well because the intelligent use of Meta (as well as duration of the fight) is what truly makes the Meta/Ruin spec shine.

farkew · 01/28/09, 10:11 PM

I realise inteligent use of Meta really spikes the dps.

But i really think that people underestimate just how much DPS a meta/ruin specced lock is actually putting out even without meta form being active.

blgdinger · 01/29/09, 2:19 AM

Originally Posted by meatskull

Another problem is the limited chances you have to place yourself on said lists. You have 1 attempt per week,
and the samples are further skewed by RNG, and natural bias towards affliction. The same people could have done the same or more dps with a different spec (once again refer to RNG).

If anything the top parses may indicate that affliction gains the most from RNG. I would disagree with this however, because in my guild we have 3 warlocks with fairly equal (extremely good) gear. We typically roll with 1 affliction and 2 deep destruction locks. On essentially 100% of fights affliction can and does do the most damage done and dps.

Also on any of the fights in naxx that have opportunities for AOE, the top warlocks in WMO parses may be a primary source of AOE during the fight. I would assume this would bump their DPS up hugely on fights like Gluth, Noth, Gothik, Faerlina, (Kel'Thuzad depending how or why the raid was aoeing in phase 1), Anub'rekan aswell if people die and cause scarabs to spawn (abnormal source of dps), there are possibly other fights like this aswell that I haven't recalled yet.

The only thing that changes per fight is RNG (and in notable cases, rotation errors are costly for the affliction lock). With that said affliction is always on top, even when the affliction lock is slightly less geared.

I have seen this trend since WOTLK release. What I am saying here is also the farthest thing from new information. Think of it more as a summary with a touch of philosophy.

With this current patch 3.0.8-- In my guild, we're still seeing affliction on top, but we're seeing deep destro come very close often, and frequently exceed affliction. When the affliction lock goes uninhibited, forget about outdps'ing him. When focus dps changes quickly or there are less opportunities to ramp up and maintain dps, we're seeing affliction fall behind deep destro.

-
You can see what I'm talking about with this weeks WWS/WMO report. Unfortunately for the warlock community, Demonize is on his honeymoon, but we can still directly compare 2 similar geared affliction + destro locks:

Wow Web Stats
WoW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!

Things to note:
-I raid destro, and my gear is slightly better than Calistik's
-post 3.0.8 seems to show alot more viability for destro, and puts more emphasis on preference rather than necessity in terms of spec choice
-The overall damage done via WWS shows that destro completely destroyed affliction. but this is very very flawed due to the aff lock slacking in a major way on trash aoe. boss comparisons should still very accurate (and I happened to beat the aff lock overall on that too)
-The true viability of destro shows when you look at boss dps differences between destro/affliction, and then compare to overall instance damage done (with top end gear)

your meters are so different from one another that your post makes 0 sense.

kaib · 01/29/09, 6:13 AM

Problem with WWS is that it completely ignores doomguard. But I don't think destro is up there with affliction really, here's a parse of affl with doomguard:

WoW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!

2:20m kill obviously increases overall dps as well but I just don't see destro keeping up as it is. Still, those fast patchy kills with gimmick pets are a pretty bad dps comparison. It's ok for affliction I guess as there is very little variance due to crit not making THAT much of an impact. Still, I don't think it really tells you all that much.
Especially when dps really matters for progress raids, you won't have your doomguard around anyway. WWS showed me in a parse of the very same combat log at 5750 dps, so with felpuppy I would have barely done 6k.

Natasmai · 01/29/09, 8:47 AM

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

Comparing the Felguard's DPS to the Imp's DPS and complaining that the FG's DPS is much higher makes little sense - the Felguard is a 41 point talent.

I realize that. However, I am spending 3 points in a tier below Felguard to improve the imp and they seem to be pathetically wasted points. Add to that the fact that I am spending 8 points total on the imp and 600DPS seems like I got ripped off. Sure the felguard should do more as a base comparison, but if I am willing to put that many of my resources into improving the imp, I should think I would get more out of the investment.

Im a huge FG/ES fan, and I expect thats the way I will stay for quite a while, I just wish the specs were more diverse than the "Easy FG/ES" and the "Too much work to play Affliction", Destro IMO is still not viable.

feartrain · 01/29/09, 9:14 AM

http://wowwebstats.com/5brmpcmixd4bk?s=14279-61515

my last night patchwerk on 0/41/30 with mostly greens and 70 epics. frostwyrm flask and haste food. no boomkim

fg did around 1200 dps. thats quite impressive considering i had like ~170 hit, ~380 haste and ~2200 spell power. this build have a huge potencial

fip · 01/29/09, 9:42 AM

Meatskull: So it's very obvious why your dps is higher than his on that wws:
1) Your gear is distinctly better than his. He would gain anywhere from 100-200 dps by getting a few of the pieces that you have, like the Dragonsoul just to name an obvious one.
2) WWS isn't showing his pet. I'm assuming this is because he was using a Doomguard so if we take your pet away you're suddenly looking at 5117 DPS (compared to his 5096 without pet).
3) He's not that good at playing an Affliction Lock: his dot uptimes are as follows:
- Corruption: 95% (there is no excuse for less than 100%)
- UA: 85%
- Immo: 76% (this should never be different from UA. The fact that he has a different uptime for Immo makes me suspicious of what he's doing)
- CoA: 90%
- SL: 85%

BUT HERE IS THE KICKER:
Haunt: 9 hits, at BEST 12 second full duration each assuming he didn't clip them at all = 61% uptime.

Ya, so the spell that increases DoT damage by 20% is only up 61% of the time, and he's only 100 dps behind you?

Affliction > your spec, stop trying to convince people otherwise.

Xera81 · 01/29/09, 9:52 AM

Originally Posted by fip

- UA: 85%
- Immo: 76% (this should never be different from UA. The fact that he has a different uptime for Immo makes me suspicious of what he's doing)

This could also be due to being hit capped through talents for Affliction, but not for Destro.

Originally Posted by fip

Affliction > your spec, stop trying to convince people otherwise.

I really dont see this as a helpful comment. We're talking about Patchwerk kills here, and as far as I can tell pretty much every one of the viable specs available to Warlocks has pushed over 6k. Affliction is however the "en Vogue" spec atm.
Perhaps Affliction can push out better numbers on Patchy. Thats does not make it ">" than anyones spec.

Bosmonster · 01/29/09, 9:59 AM

Originally Posted by Xera81

This could also be due to being hit capped through talents for Affliction, but not for Destro.

I really dont see this as a helpful comment. We're talking about Patchwerk kills here, and as far as I can tell pretty much every one of the viable specs available to Warlocks has pushed over 6k. Affliction is however the "en Vogue" spec atm.
Perhaps Affliction can push out better numbers on Patchy. Thats does not make it ">" than anyones spec.

I agree the comment didnt add much, but it is no secret either that Affliction theoratically is quite a bit more DPS than destro.

If well played, especially on a spank-fight like Patchwerk, considering roughly equal gear, Affliction SHOULD out-dps any destro build.

• Zakalwe · 01/29/09, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by fip

Meatskull: So it's very obvious why your dps is higher than his on that wws:
1) Your gear is distinctly better than his. He would gain anywhere from 100-200 dps by getting a few of the pieces that you have, like the Dragonsoul just to name an obvious one.
2) WWS isn't showing his pet. I'm assuming this is because he was using a Doomguard so if we take your pet away you're suddenly looking at 5117 DPS (compared to his 5096 without pet).
3) He's not that good at playing an Affliction Lock: his dot uptimes are as follows:
- Corruption: 95% (there is no excuse for less than 100%)
- UA: 85%
- Immo: 76% (this should never be different from UA. The fact that he has a different uptime for Immo makes me suspicious of what he's doing)
- CoA: 90%
- SL: 85%

BUT HERE IS THE KICKER:
Haunt: 9 hits, at BEST 12 second full duration each assuming he didn't clip them at all = 61% uptime.

Ya, so the spell that increases DoT damage by 20% is only up 61% of the time, and he's only 100 dps behind you?

Affliction > your spec, stop trying to convince people otherwise.

Two mistakes here: Immolation uptime will always be lower than UA, because you drop immo once you start using drain soul. And his Haunt uptime is actually 92% - you forgot to count the Haunt crits. 92% may not be perfect, but it's not necessarily bad - it's quite common to have haunt drop off for a bit while waiting for a drain soul tick.

Xera81 · 01/29/09, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Bosmonster

If well played, especially on a spank-fight like Patchwerk, considering roughly equal gear, Affliction SHOULD out-dps any destro build.

Indeed the numbers certainly point to that fact, and i think they might be right for the most part. However, some people seem to do better in one spec rather than another regardless of gear. I often grab the top spot on Patchy as 41/30 over a couple of affy locks in guild. (I was very slightly better geared than them though)
Personally I find that FG/EM is better for me overall when I look at a nights raiding over 2 or 3 wings of Naxx. Not to mention more relaxing..

TangoDigital · 01/29/09, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Xera81

Perhaps Affliction can push out better numbers on Patchy. Thats does not make it ">" than anyones spec.

Fully agree. Anything that involves fast target switches and burst dps, destruction completely destroys affliction. On single target fights affliction wins, but clearly not by a huge margin. So one can easily argue that destruction might actually be the better spec if you look at the reality of the game rather than one isolated, highly uncommon scenario. But personally speaking I would never even say "Spec A > Spec B" because whether that's true really depends on ones personal preference and playstyle.

meatskull · 01/29/09, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by TangoDigital

Fully agree. Anything that involves fast target switches and burst dps, destruction completely destroys affliction. On single target fights affliction wins, but clearly not by a huge margin. So one can easily argue that destruction might actually be the better spec if you look at the reality of the game rather than one isolated, highly uncommon scenario. But personally speaking I would never even say "Spec A > Spec B" because whether that's true really depends on ones personal preference and playstyle.

Excellent summary of the last page or so. The reason I even attempted to raise such points was because I raid with 3 warlocks, and we change specs whenever we have good reason to test various aspects. We generally have the greatest dps related success as 1 of 2 specs. A variant of 56/0/15(affliction) and 2/13/56(destruction).

If this is going to turn into an A or B comparison and/or discussion, then here are some points to agree or disagree with:

Affliction:
1-highest boss dps potential
2-least talent emphasis on pet usage, most freedom in pet choice
3-high output potential when movement is required
4-threat issues (65+% of TPS can continue while not casting)
5-AOE via Seed of Corruption does high damage which can lead to threat issues quickly, and damage cannot be stopped in some cases

Destruction:
1-emergency burst damage easily supplied (coupled with dps that matches similar geared people)*1
2-max improved healthstone without dps related trade-offs (0/13/51+7)
3-typically includes 10% threat reduction
4-output can be started and stopped close to a dime (excluding negligible TPS from dots)
5-AOE generally provided by Rain of Fire, damage can be started and stopped very quickly
6-Imp should be used, limitations can arise, but Blood Pact is supplied without cost

*1 dps can be + or - similar geared people depending on environment, i would deem +/- 500 dps acceptable deviation

Bonus:
Other points exist on proc and crit related output (for both specs (for good and for bad)), but I cannot word them how I would like.

---

Sorry, once again I want to emphasize that affliction is continually seen as the highest dps spec after the patch.
If 2 warlocks of different cookie cutter specs, with the exact same gear, are present in the same fight-- it is unlikely that non affliction spec will do more damage. Unless they have bad luck and you have good luck. I am basing this generalization on the fact that I raid with multiple warlocks, so I can see first hand what a different spec does for a person when compared to a different spec warlock in the same raid (same buffs aswell). I can provide a quantity of wws/wmo parses which show this trend.
This statement should hold true for any level of gear currently available. I have not seen any evidence to indicate otherwise.

Hybrid demo/destro combination specs are viable to say the least, but many have concluded that they are not a "highest dps spec".

Xera81 · 01/29/09, 1:31 PM

We seem to be discounting the generally consitent performance of the Demo/Destro hybrid, (41/30 FG/EM for example) specs here. The Hybrid specs seem to be performing well across most boss fights, often in my experience landing them greater boss damage over the duration of a raid.
Your point about affliction prividing good damage in movement heavy fights seems to be a bone of contention. Some people disagree as it is difficult to maintain the more complex rotation, wheras others state that the strength of thier instant cast dots on the move puts them ahead. This I guess boils down to to the individual players style and skill, and cant really be quantified.