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Old 01/23/09, 9:02 AM   #31
Smurrf
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Paladin
 
Lothar
Originally Posted by Ele' View Post
I wasn't thinking about "stacking" the dots (or "adding something" to the remaining time), just reseting their timer without reseting the "time to tick". Imagine if you could spam Haunt, it would be the same effect: each application of haunt would reset the corruption to 18 seconds, not extend it by 18 more seconds.

That makes far more sense than the way I read your original post. You're still going to see a DPS loss, situationally, but it's an interesting idea.

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Old 01/23/09, 9:07 AM   #32
Moror
Glass Joe
 
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Draenei Shaman
 
Frostmane (EU)
Originally Posted by Ele' View Post
I wasn't thinking about "stacking" the dots (or "adding something" to the remaining time), just reseting their timer without reseting the "time to tick". Imagine if you could spam Haunt, it would be the same effect: each application of haunt would reset the corruption to 18 seconds, not extend it by 18 more seconds.
Thats a pretty great idea, it would make keeping dots going more simple (not that its hard but its what Blizz seems to be after) whilst still provide some skill input in that reapplying them with perfect timing as they fall off would still provide more SB casting time.

As some other people have also mentioned I think something needs to be changed with Haunt, having a cast time PLUS the travel time really does make when its going to land into quite a guesstimation(especially with haste flying around (Eradication/Bloodlust mainly)), either removing the cast time or removing/vastly shortening the travel time would make reapplying it at more oportune moments a lot easier.

Once again as other people have said being able to track only your own debuffs on a target would remove the need for a dot timer if done properly (although it would have to be pretty well done, I love the way Quartz tracks target debuffs with both the bar and actual timer).

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Old 01/23/09, 11:19 AM   #33
Burberri
Piston Honda
 
Orc Warlock
 
<G2>
Silvermoon
Originally Posted by Aryja View Post
why not remove haunt from the rotation? make haunt a passive talent which works through unstable affliction. something like this: "while your unstable affliction is active on the target, your damage over time effects do 20% more damage. when UA ends, you will be healed für x% of its damage done." x could be about 50%, maybe less.
everlasting affliction would need to work with shadow bolt instead of haunt.
why remove haunt? because the affliction lock was fine to play in bc. the scaling was off, true, but the playstyle, the rotation, was fine.
Keep in mind that the purpose of haunt is to provide a PVP limiter to dot damage as you can't keep it up on 2 targets at once. If it were tied to UA that would break pvp.

The only thing I would like is, haunt to have no travel time and SE to be 5 seconds longer. It still doesn't solve the problem of getting by with the base UI, but I don't see a good fix that either doesn't alter the base UI or the class.

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Old 01/23/09, 11:30 AM   #34
Mindaika
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Tauren Death Knight
 
Frostwolf
Originally Posted by Kilroggmama View Post
I agree! Please don't simplify affliction. It's not hard to play, it just takes a little longer to master than SB spam. And if you can't master affliction, you're simply not skilled enough. Skill should be rewarded. Please don't remove the possibility for skilled players to shine!
I agree with this, except that as it stands, there isn't much opportunity for skilled players to shine. I was running 56/0/15 for quite a while, and topping or nearly topping the meters. I have/had great DoT uptimes, and I'm good at playing affliction. Then, I tried switching to to 0/41/30. This added a significant amount of DPS, and cut the number of timers I need to watch by 2/3rds. The culprit?

Most of my gear has haste and/or crit on it, which is of minimal benefit to affliction locks.

I say: leave affliction like it is. It's not that hard to play. However, it's also not worth playing (for me at least), since i'm putting more effort into less DPS.

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Old 01/23/09, 11:33 AM   #35
Auze
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Warlock
 
Icecrown
Originally Posted by Burberri View Post
Keep in mind that the purpose of haunt is to provide a PVP limiter to dot damage as you can't keep it up on 2 targets at once. If it were tied to UA that would break pvp.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Even if we could keep Haunt up on a dozen people, Warlocks would still die in half a second in PvP as it is. There is nothing to "break" in PvP at this point.

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Old 01/23/09, 12:24 PM   #36
CaelLock
Glass Joe
 
Human Warlock
 
Dalaran
Originally Posted by Ele' View Post
I wasn't thinking about "stacking" the dots (or "adding something" to the remaining time), just reseting their timer without resetting the "time to tick". Imagine if you could spam Haunt, it would be the same effect: each application of haunt would reset the corruption to 18 seconds, not extend it by 18 more seconds.
I would take this a little further. I would rework all DoTs in the game so that if the DoT had less than a few seconds left (i.e. 3s), recasting the dot would add the full duration to the effect. For example, recasting Immolate with 2s left on the DoT would immediately do the DD portion of the spell and the Immolate DoT would now have 17s.

Affliction isn't "hard" because we have all of these DoTs to put on a mob, it's "hard" because it requires perfect timing for every one of our spells to maximize DPS. The DoT needs to be reapplied immediately after the last one ends. To early, lost DPS. To late, lost DPS. That's also why we basically require a DoT timer to play the spec. This also makes Affliction very sensitive to lag.

Every class/spec has a rotation. But many of them do not require perfect timing. Not to say timing isn't important, but there's a bit of wiggle room. For example, Ret Pallys are pretty much Cooldown constrained. They have a few abilities to DPS that are all on cooldowns. It's not possible to clip a cooldown. FFB mages don't have to perfectly time all of their attacks. They have to refresh Scorch before it drops, and they want to do it as late as possible, but they've got some flex time there. If Hot Streak procs, they just have to use the proc before the buff expires. Living Bomb does have the same DoT timing, but it's one ability. These play styles are "easier" because their core mechanics have timing forgiveness built in.

Building wiggle room into DoTs by extending DoTs about to expire would make every class with a DoT a little easier to play. It would really help Affliction locks, but wouldn't change our spell list or rotation.

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Old 01/23/09, 12:26 PM   #37
Burberri
Piston Honda
 
Orc Warlock
 
<G2>
Silvermoon
Originally Posted by Auze View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Even if we could keep Haunt up on a dozen people, Warlocks would still die in half a second in PvP as it is. There is nothing to "break" in PvP at this point.
Well assuming they fix our pvp survivability problem, the damage problem would be apparent. They are too seperate problems. But if you want a PvE example, You could skew your OS+drakes damage up by keeping your dots up on multiple drakes. You obviously wouldn't do this as you need to burn through the drakes down ASAP so you minimize your time with them up, but on a Romeo and Juliet style fight, our dps would be absurd without the restriction haunt provides.

Last edited by Burberri : 01/23/09 at 12:27 PM. Reason: grammar

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Old 01/23/09, 12:54 PM   #38
Arthillen
Glass Joe
 
Human Warlock
 
Scarlet Crusade
I think the problem is the UI not the spec

I switched from FG/ES to affliction because I was bored of the simplicity of that spec. It took me a bit of time to get used to it, but I enjoy the complexity and challenge of affliction, and I think it would be a disservice to simplify it.

From what blizzard has said their main concern is that affliction requires addons. That's true, but I don't think it is a problem. It is hardly the only spec or play style in the game that requires addons. In fact you'll probably have a hard time finding a raider that doesn't have certain required addons. This is especially true for healers. I have a (currently neglected) resto shaman and when I played him in bc I would never think of raid healing without some form of click-style casting (clique + grid, clique + xperl, healbot, etc).

Personally I think that if blizzard wants to deal with these problems they should hire some of the good addon developers to revamp the blizzard default UI. IMHO the default UI is very poor for every class in the game and I would never use it. It is the UI, not the play style that mandates the use of addons.

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Old 01/23/09, 12:59 PM   #39
Fatsummoner
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warlock
 
Mal'Ganis
What about making it so that you can only replace a dot after it's duration has finished. We already time all the casted dots so that they start as soon as the dot's are finished. I'm not sure how well that would work though. It would solve the issue of clipping dots, and would increase the time you have to use your filler.

The instant haunt idea is good, but would be a pretty big increase. (not that i wouldn't mind it) It would definitely give more time to refresh dots, and to use the filler. The only issue i have with haunt at the moment is that it refreshes Corruption and i feel it isn't getting it's full effect. Though it's almost as if you have a constant corruption.

The idea of having the duration restarted without the dot being replaced is good. As if you're just refreshing the dot, so that the tick timing continues as it was and doesn't reset. That would allow less of a focus in timing refreshes so hardcore, and would diminish the need for the 3rd party add-ons.

The idea of combining Haunt into Unstable Affliction doesn't really sound too good. It's effect being put into a dot would overpower it. And having the corruption refresh affect implemented into Shadow Bolt kind of negates the awesome. I personally spam SB as a filler, and if it refreshed corruption every cast, i would get little to no ticks from corruption. Maybe if it was refreshed every refresh of Unstable affliction, that would allow removing a casted dot from the rotation, and wouldn't be refreshed too often as if it were on SB.

- Just my 2 Cents to the ideas posted. -

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Old 01/23/09, 1:01 PM   #40
fallenman
Piston Honda
 
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Undead Warlock
 
Kil'Jaeden
Originally Posted by Kilroggmama View Post
I agree! Please don't simplify affliction. It's not hard to play, it just takes a little longer to master than SB spam. And if you can't master affliction, you're simply not skilled enough. Skill should be rewarded. Please don't remove the possibility for skilled players to shine!
Originally Posted by DiamondTear View Post
I'm happy with the current condition of affliction. I don't feel the need to link spells like UA and immolate even on encounters that require me to be aware of my surroundings (Sarth+3). I'd be very happy if they found a way to fix this "problem" by just improving the UI.
It's fine now because the content is no more difficult than hogger. Once we actually start to get challenging content, affliction's lack of simplicitiy will become far more of a hinderance. Regardless, there isn't much point in debating if, since it's already been decided that it's going to be simplified.

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Old 01/23/09, 2:03 PM   #41
DiamondTear
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Lightning's Blade (EU)
Originally Posted by zootlewurdle View Post
Through classic raiding, and up until we started Black Temple (more or less) I was always Affliction. One of the things I really liked about it was the mobility it offered. Haunt and Shadow Embrace have pretty much made Affliction the complete opposite now. I don't have a problem with the rotation and the different duration of DoTs relative to each other. It's the loss of mobility I'd like to see changed.
Even during Heigan dance you have time to refresh haunt, because the cast time is so short. During other bosses it should be easy to find time to cast it during the 4-6 sec window you get.

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Old 01/23/09, 3:47 PM   #42
pelux
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warlock
 
Silvermoon
Competitive affliction DPS requires that Shadow Embrace and Haunt are kept on the target at all times. Having Haunt itself be one of the only 2 spells that applies Shadow Embrace means that missing a Haunt can easily lead to both debuffs dropping.

I'd like to see the Shadow Embrace debuff application added to more affliction effects.

Edit.: I'm not necessarily referring to a miss due to lack or appropriate HIT rating but also movement and various environmental effects which can prevent the timely reapplication of Haunt.

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Old 01/23/09, 9:18 PM   #43
rutiene
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Warlock
 
Deathwing
Originally Posted by fallenman View Post
It's fine now because the content is no more difficult than hogger. Once we actually start to get challenging content, affliction's lack of simplicitiy will become far more of a hinderance. Regardless, there isn't much point in debating if, since it's already been decided that it's going to be simplified.
It's not even about simplicity. I can keep my dots on as long as I can cast them, even if hell is breaking loose. 50 attempts of 3 Drake Sartharion with no flame wall or fissure mistakes has shown that. It's about the fact that 30% of our dps is tied to two cast time spells. On 3 drake Sartharion, even while maintaining as perfect of a rotation as I can manage, I can never break top 3. And yet, for the more simple fights in Naxxaramas, I'm almost always first. I definitely think this is will be the downfall of Affliction.

The problem will also get worse because we have always scaled worse than most (read: melee) classes with gear.

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Old 01/24/09, 3:26 AM   #44
Rhod
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Hyjal
I'd prefer haunt to be more of a "focus" effect. There are many fights where there is a dps switch or a reordering of damage priority (Sarth, 4Horse, etc.) but there is a huge "ramp up" time problem with affliction in that UA and Haunt are both big chunks of our damage. Why isn't haunt tied into our pet or simply our target? The effect is applied to the target as long as either our pet or our focus is on the target increasing dots on that target by 20%. If we dot up another target, we can switch the focus to another target quickly by simply putting the pet on another target or switching focus.

The best example I can give is hunter's mark (usuable on one target, fast to put up and switch, provides a damage boost). I'd also like to see a warlock synergy with it in that each warlock can put it up on a target and affect all dots by a smaller precentage (10%?). Thus, we are once again a debuffing class and, with a little coordination, can boost our fellow warlock's damage. Also, through working together multiple locks could keep the buff up on all targets at once drastically increasing the damage of coordinated warlocks and multi-DoT management.

Furthermore, this makes affliction a bit more interesting for PVP with faster switching and focusing of damage.

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Old 01/24/09, 9:20 AM   #45
Kana
Von Kaiser
 
Goblin Shaman
 
Kil'Jaeden
Making all dots refresh themselves doesn't really solve the problem. It lets people who struggle with running the cycle do a little better, but the spec would still want to avoid clipping as much as possible to allow more nuke time. Same thing for blocking clipping; the fundamental cycle won't change, only the consequences of being suboptimal at running it will.

I think the most likely solution is giving affliction something like Glyph of Scourge Strike, either via talent or via Glyph of Haunt. Giving haunt a 50 percent chance to refresh each affliction debuffs on the target would cut a lot of what makes affliction's cycle difficult, without losing the variability that makes it fun. Maybe increase UA and immolate to 18 second durations, too, so that you'll have more than one chance to refresh them. Unfortunately that doesn't remove the need for timers, which seems like the main thrust of the dev's problem with affliction.

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