Zack, I'm not sure what you are getting at. If you keep up DP at x% you have to hit y Spelldmg to for y*x%/10=280.
Now to compensate for the lack of ~500personal dps, you make up 375dps so you have to bridge 125 dps from the raid as a whole from your dp. which is (125/8)/1.5 *10 or 104 additioanl spelldmg on top of the previous number to = equivalent SP increase and dps gain. Any SP above that is a dps increase for the raid over ToW.
So assuming 80% up time you would need 3500sp+104 to breake even for the dps. or 3604 spellpower. Every ounce of SP gained above that is a raid dps increase at 80% uptime vs the Sp from ToW.
Now if you don't have a ret palliy then you need ToW as well so you then have to bridge the gap of 500dps lost which is a much larger number, see above posts for that.
Once again you are incorrectly calculating it. You dont need to compensate for 280 SP loss from the ToW, you are sure to be still receiving 144 from a resto's flametongue. A Resto shaman does'nt have anything better to drop, so it isnt a case of the Elemental's decision of ToW vs. Searing. If you wish to assume the 3% crit is covered by another class or player, then it is also safe to assume you have a resto shaman. The number a warlock should have before surpassing ToW is far less than you state. Not to mention that 40/31 scales better with spell power than any of the deep demo DP builds (according to simcraft scales) so the more spell power you add to the warlock, the larger the DPS loss becomes for him to spec DP. Sure you can overcome the scaling difference, it isnt that large of a gap, but these things are still not being considered.
As for what Zak is saying... I think you are both doing the same thing in different ways. This thread is talking about:
A.) How much how much SP is required for a warlock to put out a high enough DP buff to equal total DPS increase of the 280 SP from ToW (which in my opinion should only calculate the increase of ToW over Flametongue) including DP downtime.
B.) How much additional SP do you need to compensate for your own personal DPS loss minus the DPS gain of the searing totem. (125 DPS)
Those 2 combined is the amount the warlock needs to allow the Shaman to drop Searing totem and break even (assuming the 3% crit is covered of course). Anything over that is a straight raid DPS increase.
The point no one brought up until Zak, is that there is another way to compensate the DPS losses. Instead of waiting for the warlock to break even with the shaman, overlap the buffs and cover the DP downtime. Assuming the warlocks DP buff is more than 280, the shaman would be increasing the raid by 280 (136 IMO) during the DP downtime. How much DPS increase does that downtime amount to over not having any increase at all. At what point does it fall below the searing totems contribution. The effect this has is allowing a warlock to give a small increase over the ToW's 280 ~80% of the time and lowers the gear requirements for a DP warlock to be effective. The warlock only needs to be above 2800 SP.
Hopefully that explains it better. I would still like to hear someone elses opinion on the Flametongue totem, since it would drastically change the calculations.
:EDIT: Zak posted his amendment to the uptime as I was typing this. As he stated, it makes overlapping a waste.
You dont need to compensate for 280 SP loss from the ToW, you are sure to be still receiving 144 from a resto's flametongue. A Resto shaman does'nt have anything better to drop [...]
If this is true, it falls under the category of things I was missing about shaman mechanics. Maybe you can enlighten me - why couldn't a resto shaman drop a searing totem, for instance?
A resto shaman loses around 250 DPS from using his searing totem (Source), which you'd also have to cross off against the 144 spellpower. 5% uptime on 144 spellpower for 8 casters with a scaler of 1.5 dps per spellpower means 86.4 DPS, and is thus also a raid DPS decrease.
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.
If this is true, it falls under the category of things I was missing about shaman mechanics. Maybe you can enlighten me - why couldn't a resto shaman drop a searing totem, for instance?
I am not a shaman expert at all, either. What I do know is that no fire totem effects the resto shaman output except Flametongue. If there isnt a ToW in the raid, a resto would be dropping this since it is the same buff, but less spellpower. Technically, there is no reason a resto *couldnt* drop searing totem, but I dont believe that simcraft or any other method of DPS modeling is considering the DPS of a healer so is it relevant? They dont have any improvement talents to the totems output (there is a talent that increases searing totem by 15% that resto spec does not take) and therefore their DPS contributions from the searing totem would be much less than even the 400 DPS we are considering. I would think that if a ToW or DP is in the raid, the resto probably doesnt even drop a fire totem at all, so why not drop flametongue and suppliment the DP downtime with 144 SP.
As motif calculates there, in theory a resto would lose "DPS" by dropping flametongue and not dropping a searing totem, but since the healers DPS is irrelevant, and since his spell power effecting his healing output is relevant, it seems clear to me that if he bothers dropping a fire totem it would be Flametongue to be sure he atleast has 144 additional SP while the DP buff is down.
How is someone's DPS irrelevant just because they're a healer? It's all RDPS, and Warlocomotif just posted math showing that searing totem would be a better contribution than flametongue, assuming a sufficiently geared DP lock.
OK so ive tried to look this up but didn't see it so appologies if i missed something.
my guild only does 10mans and we dont have a shaman. and usually only run one warlock in the raid (me now).
How much of a benefit will i be giving if I spec DP vs if I choose a high personal dps build? Im new back to the warlocks havn't raided with one since lvl60. just hit 80 this week and trying to figure out how to spec him.
Thanks for any responses. if this question is better elsewhere let me know.
I am not a shaman expert at all, either. What I do know is that no fire totem effects the resto shaman output except Flametongue. If there isnt a ToW in the raid, a resto would be dropping this since it is the same buff, but less spellpower. Technically, there is no reason a resto *couldnt* drop searing totem, but I dont believe that simcraft or any other method of DPS modeling is considering the DPS of a healer so is it relevant? They dont have any improvement talents to the totems output (there is a talent that increases searing totem by 15% that resto spec does not take) and therefore their DPS contributions from the searing totem would be much less than even the 400 DPS we are considering. I would think that if a ToW or DP is in the raid, the resto probably doesnt even drop a fire totem at all, so why not drop flametongue and suppliment the DP downtime with 144 SP.
As motif calculates there, in theory a resto would lose "DPS" by dropping flametongue and not dropping a searing totem, but since the healers DPS is irrelevant, and since his spell power effecting his healing output is relevant, it seems clear to me that if he bothers dropping a fire totem it would be Flametongue to be sure he atleast has 144 additional SP while the DP buff is down.
You're completely missing the point. Any one individual person's personal DPS is irrelevant, wether that person is DPS or healer is even more irrelevant. What truely matters most is not how much DPS you do, it's how much DPS your raid does. If higher raid DPS can be accomplished through searing totem from resto shaman- there's no reason not to.
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.
For it is worth, the guy sitting next to me points out that shaman are beaten severely from a very young age if they ever even *think* of dropping a searing totem in 90% of encounters. Searing totem is *not smart* about what it targets. Think mage image level intelligence. It'll help on Patchwerk, less so on Raz/Gluth/Kael'Thas/Vashj &c
Also Flametongue and (DP|ToW) don't stack so FT doesn't enter into the equation when comparing DP & ToW
I think all the guys are getting at with dropping FT totem if you have a resto in the raid, is that the amount of SP lost in DP downtime is not ~280SP (or whatever the lock is contributing from DP) but actually the DP less 144SP from FT Totem. So for the 5-10% DP is not up, assuming the ele shaman is not dropping ToW, you still will have 144SP from FT, not nothing at all. Just a different calculation required then for net SP gain from DP with a FT totem dropped and an ele dropping Fire Ele/Magma/Searing totems.
I keep seeing the number 144 SP used. I just figured it was worth pointing out that if you have any Shaman at all in your raid, you are probably actually getting either the ToW 280 SP, or the talented FT totem, which is actually 165 SP. 3 points in Enhancing Totems on the first tier of the enhancement tree increases the effect of FT and Strength of Earth by 15%. Most Enhancement Shaman will pick this up as a matter of course. A Resto Shaman in a raid with no Enhancement Shaman should pick it up just because it is a nice boost to RDPS (and healing) for 3 points.
*Edit-Talented FT shows up in your buffs as 144 SP, but if you check your character sheet you'll see that it is 165 SP.
i took that talent into consideration, however, when I went the EJ shaman forums no Resto spec listed contained the enhancing totems talent, so I left the extra SP out. What Migage said is exactly what I am trying to convey. I realize that any DPS from anyone is a contribution to the whole, however, I have not seen a resto drop searing totem and what I was getting at is in the grand scheme of 35-40k raid DPS, is one resto shaman's 250 DPS really going to make a difference? Also, as Angaroth points out, in a real situation with multiple targets or a bit of movement, what is the chance that a searing totem really even hits the correct target, or even has anything in range to hit at all. On the other hand, the range on totem's auras is greater and therefore has a larger possibility of continuously buffing the raid.
IMO, the damaging fire totems are being greatly overrated. Your fire elemental will go oom and do pitiful melee attacks after the first few spells because the pets dont scale like warlocks do with the shamans gear. The magma totem is aoe and is probably only suited for trash, which is completely irrelevant to the boss fight and only serves to get you from one boss to another faster. The searing totem will suffer from range issue in a movement heavy fight like most of the Ulduar fights seem to be.
i took that talent into consideration, however, when I went the EJ shaman forums no Resto spec listed contained the enhancing totems talent, so I left the extra SP out. What Migage said is exactly what I am trying to convey. I realize that any DPS from anyone is a contribution to the whole, however, I have not seen a resto drop searing totem and what I was getting at is in the grand scheme of 35-40k raid DPS, is one resto shaman's 250 DPS really going to make a difference?
The point is that it's apparently going to make a bigger difference than one resto shaman's Flametongue Totem. The fact that DPS totems are largely incompetent is a good point- but it doesn't change that simulations arent being made of worst case scenario's. They're made on best case scenarios. You can argue that searing totem is bad on most fights, but I can't really see how you would call magma totem "trash only"- there's so many boss fights right now with AoE requirements that magma totem will definitely deliver (Thorin, Freya, Razorscale- just to name a few).
I honestly have a hard time imagining 5% uptime on a 144 spellpower buff being worthwhile anywhere.
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.
Let's turn this back on topic with regards to Dem Pact to ToW. The point we're making is that with a resto or even an enh shammy dropping a Flametongue totem (144 or 165SP) to cover DP downtime, an ele shammy dropping anyother fire totem (and hence more than cover the resto shammy now not dropping a searing totem, especially with all the fire-totem talents in the ele tree) and then a dem lock providing ~90-95% uptime on dem pact, what then is the increase/decrease in rDPS over all this taken away by one single ele shammy dropping ToW at 280SP? How much dps does a raid benefit from 3-6 seconds (90-95% of a minute) of 144-165SP increase in the DP downtime as opposed to none at all? And then with all that modelled, what is then the true required dem lock spell power to justify telling an ele shammy to switch to another totem?
And then with all that modelled, what is then the true required dem lock spell power to justify telling an ele shammy to switch to another totem?
I think it's pretty clear cut for idealized stand-still fights: As soon as DPUptime*AverageSP exceeds 2800, the optimal raid will have just a DP lock and no SP-buffing totems. At current crit levels, DPUptime is around 95%, meaning the magic number is 2800 / 0.95 = 2948. And since this number includes demonic knowledge, fel armor, flask, food, and averaged-out trinket procs, it's perfectly reachable before even entering Ulduar.
For ToW to be worth casting in that scenario, the searing totem would have to be out of range for 61% of the fight. (Using previously posted assumptions for raid DPS scaling with SP, and assuming 430 DPS for the searing totem: 1 - (280*0.05*8*1.5)/430 = 0.61.)
Of course this all assumes you have the 3% crit debuff covered in some other way - either by an assassination rogue or by a retribution paladin. If you don't, ToW should always be used anyway.
In either of the above two scenarios where ToW would be worth it, a DP lock would still be worth it if (DPUptime*AverageSP*0.1 - 280)*8*1.5 exceeds the warlock's DPS loss by speccing into DP instead of the top DPS spec. Current simcraft numbers show this loss to be around 400, putting the magic number at (400/(8*1.5) + 280)/(0.95*0.1) = 3299. This isn't quite reachable in current gear, but shouldn't require more than an upgrade or two from Ulduar, especially if you prioritize SP the way a DP lock should.
But of course there's one other situation where a DP lock would not be worth it: Fights that are melee unfriendly to the point where the felguard is likely to die or be forced to stay out of melee range for significant portions of the fight.
TLDR version: DP locks will be part of an optimal raid group as soon as 3.1 hits, but they should have a second spec ready for fights that are unfriendly to felguards.
Last edited by Zakalwe : 04/06/09 at 12:29 PM.
Reason: Fixed a minor logical error in the fourth paragraph.
From the 3.1 simcraft thread:
Warlock_T8_03_13_55 intellect=0.27 spirit=0.86 spell_power=1.34 crit_rating=0.87 haste_rating=0.90
Warlock_T8_03_52_16 intellect=0.51 spirit=0.91 spell_power=1.28 crit_rating=0.85 haste_rating=1.17
I would have thought that crit would have been very important to a DP using warlock keep the uptime as high as possible. I guess the scaling figure are calculated strictly on personal DPS rather than rDPS.
Then again, if we are seeing DP uptime at 95% then diminishing returns is clearly playing a role and once you get, apparently, 14% crit on your gear (13.44 on the T7_gear list) you are fine.
From the 3.1 simcraft thread:
Warlock_T8_03_13_55 intellect=0.27 spirit=0.86 spell_power=1.34 crit_rating=0.87 haste_rating=0.90
Warlock_T8_03_52_16 intellect=0.51 spirit=0.91 spell_power=1.28 crit_rating=0.85 haste_rating=1.17
I would have thought that crit would have been very important to a DP using warlock keep the uptime as high as possible. I guess the scaling figure are calculated strictly on personal DPS rather than rDPS.
Then again, if we are seeing DP uptime at 95% then diminishing returns is clearly playing a role and once you get, apparently, 14% crit on your gear (13.44 on the T7_gear list) you are fine.
3 51 16 is not a demonic pact build, there are no shown scale factors for this build because the scale factors you should consider are raid dps scale factors that depend on your raid setup.
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.
Simcraft shows using the imp would cause a further 684 personal DPS loss in current gear, so at that point it's probably better to just drop a ToW. But of course if you for some reason don't have an elemental shaman it's still worth it to have a DP lock, since the raid DPS gain from the buff should be significantly higher than 1084.
EDIT: DP with the imp would actually be better than ToW at high gear levels - assuming 1084 DPS loss for the DP lock and 430 DPS loss for the elemental shaman, and simcraft's reported 97.5% uptime on DP with the imp, they break even at ((1084-430)/(8*1.5) + 280)/(0.975*0.1) = 3431 average SP on the lock. Which should be possible with Ulduar gear.
RE-EDIT: Since the other specs scale better than deep demo, it would actually probably NOT be possible to hit a gear level where imp-DP would beat ToW. When you hit 3431 average SP, your DPS loss from speccing into DP would be much higher than 684.
1. Yes.
2. I'm using the current T7 set. The T8 gear set is just a preliminary example - if it turns out to lower DP uptime too much, I'm guessing a DP lock would choose to pick up more crit. Though it may be better to just pick up more SP instead, since crit rating has surprisingly little effect on the uptime.
I'm quite new to this and so I'm not sure if the assumptions I'm going to make are correct, and if not please say so.
So far the main discussion in this thread was how much SP a DP-specced Warlock needs to replace ToW, but from the Threadtitle I would think it is more about how much SP you need to distribute enough DPS for the raid to cover up your personal DPS loss from this specc. I've been reading posts in this forum forum for the last week and it seems that it is possible to determine the highest DPS-specc and the DPS value 1 point of spellpower is worth. So if we assume a hypothetical raidsetup that can be used as a model, calculate for each class that profits from spellpower the increase in DPS 1 point is worth it should be possible to determine the amount of SP needed to cover up for your personal DPS loss? I think it would probably be easier to calculate this by ignoring the HPS increase at first and concentrate purely on DPS. Of course this value is not entirely correct in terms of raid support then but as a raugh threshold it should have some meaning.
In this build you miss out on the +3% hit from the affliction tree. That 3% hit (if you were to replace it with gems in your gear.. or even just from a stat cost point) is in a way taking away 93 spell power you could of had.
The main point of the DP build is to buff the raid. Would it be better to get those 3% hit talents, give yourself that extra spell power, and drop some of the personal (non spell power addings) dps talents?
It seems there are 4 points you have that could go towards Molten Core, Nemisis or Decimation. I came up with
I am not sure the numbers if you would do higher over all personal dps (with the same DP buff amount) with those 4 points put a little different. You could perhaps max nemisis and skip decimatition and that would allow you to stay in immolation range the whole fight.
I will be taking 1 of my 2 specs as a DP build (mainly for when our elemental shaman is not there) and am just trying to max out the raid buff that it will give.
You are assuming that you drop SP on gear to replace those 3% hit, which is flat wrong, in theory and practice.
If you do want Suppression, the talent to skip is IDT, not Decimate/Nemesis/MC.
04/02/09, 8:58 AM
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