Elitist Jerks 3.1 Patch notes discussion

02/25/09, 8:47 AM   #256
Krazen
Don Flamenco

Blood Elf Warlock

Turalyon
 Originally Posted by Asmodaeus Another hypothesis is that Conflagrate does the damage of the Incinerate dot normalized for being an instant (i.e. only gets 42.86% of it, just like instants only get 42.86% of your spellpower). It would get the full base damage of Immolate, which is 1493 = 785 * 1.15 * 1.2 * 1.3 * 1.06 plus the extra damage on the immolate dot multiplied by 0.4286, and benefiting one more time from Emberstorm (since it deals fire damage): in this example, (1493 + (1091 * 5 - 1493) * 0.4286) * 1,15 = 3670, which is pretty close to the observed 3672. where 1493 is the base damage of Immolate and 1091 * 5 - 1493 is the amount of damage on the immolate dot coming from spell power. If this hypothesis is correct, Conflagrate is working as intended *sigh*.
That math lowballs my Conflag values quite a bit. I get 4759 while the actual was 5461.

02/25/09, 8:55 AM   #257
Warlocomotif
Don Flamenco

Human Warlock

Emerald Dream (EU)
 Originally Posted by Asmodaeus Another hypothesis is that Conflagrate does the damage of the Incinerate dot normalized for being an instant (i.e. only gets 42.86% of it, just like instants only get 42.86% of your spellpower). It would get the full base damage of Immolate, which is 1493 = 785 * 1.15 * 1.2 * 1.3 * 1.06 plus the extra damage on the immolate dot multiplied by 0.4286, and benefiting one more time from Emberstorm (since it deals fire damage): in this example, (1493 + (1091 * 5 - 1493) * 0.4286) * 1,15 = 3670, which is pretty close to the observed 3672. where 1493 is the base damage of Immolate and 1091 * 5 - 1493 is the amount of damage on the immolate dot coming from spell power. If this hypothesis is correct, Conflagrate is working as intended *sigh*.
The spell description is very clear IMO; does the damage of a full immolate's dot. Anything less should not be considered working as intended.

It might be worth checking if Conflagrate will double dip- because it should probably not do that (I mean, it'd be nice, but it'd just get nerfed eventually).

02/25/09, 9:07 AM   #258
phulshof
Von Kaiser

Human Warlock

Aggramar (EU)
 Originally Posted by Evidicus Lots of people throw the "S" word around a lot, but no Warlock build has truly spammed anything since Sunwell was hard. I find it humorous that so many people are angry and negative about the "challenge" of Affliction being gone, and how they detest "spamming" builds when for 25-30% of every fight you just lean on the Drain Soul button and refreshed some DoTs as needed. How was that not spamming a "filler" spell? Because Drain Soul wasn't Shadow Bolt or Incinerate it attained some higher level of skill or challenge to use?
I admit, I was still cursing Joymax for ruining iSRO when you were running around Sunwell, but looking at the current rotation, for every 60 seconds I get without haste, with AC and CoA glyph:
5xhauntx1.5s
4xUAx1.5s
4xImmx1.5s
2xCoAx1s
2xSLx1.5s
60-15x1.5-2x1=35.5 or 35.5/60x100%=59% casting SB
Remove SL and Imm from that equation, and you get:
60-9x1.5-2x1=44.5 or 44.5/60x100%=74% casting SB
Admitted, that's during 3/4 of every fight, but it still feels like spamming SB to me. Add a bit of haste into the equation, and it only gets worse.

02/25/09, 9:08 AM   #259
Rozzenwyn
Von Kaiser

Exodar
 Originally Posted by Warlocomotif I think you mean Fel Synergy, which will indeed lower the voidwalker's stamina scaling by 10%.
Yup, I noticed that too. I think they had to nerf it a bit since they moved it to tier 1 but they also buffed the healing portion of it so it may be because of that too. I do think its one of the ways they are trying to stop the VW tanking from continuing in later content though. Oh well, at least we get to have fun with it for the time being.

 02/25/09, 9:11 AM #260 Asmodaeus Von Kaiser   Asmodaeus Human Warlock   Executus (EU) Ok, it would be much easier to determine Conflagrate's behavior if ppl in the PTR could do some tests with constant spell power (no random proc trinkets, no 4t7, no glyph of life tap, etc) and tell us their spell power and link their spec and glyphs. For Gherkin we observed a damage difference between the expected Conflagrate and the observed Conflagrate of around 48%, and for Krazen it's around 40%, which to me just smells like different spell power coefficients being used for Immolate and Conflagrate.
 02/25/09, 9:15 AM #261 alexisz Glass Joe   alexisz Human Warlock   Icecrown Decimation is awesome but you currently dont get the cast speed reduction part of the buff til your shadowbolt/incinerate hit your target so you have to cast 2 shadowbolt/incinerates or just sit there waiting for your shadowbolt/incin to hit the target. Someone please bring this up on the test realm forums or else the moronic devs will let it go live like that.
02/25/09, 9:16 AM   #262
Warlocomotif
Don Flamenco

Human Warlock

Emerald Dream (EU)
 Originally Posted by Rozzenwyn Yup, I noticed that too. I think they had to nerf it a bit since they moved it to tier 1 but they also buffed the healing portion of it so it may be because of that too. I do think its one of the ways they are trying to stop the VW tanking from continuing in later content though. Oh well, at least we get to have fun with it for the time being.
The healing component didn't get buffed, it's a typo. It still heals for 15% of the damage done.

02/25/09, 9:33 AM   #263
Rozzenwyn
Von Kaiser

Exodar
 Originally Posted by Warlocomotif The healing component didn't get buffed, it's a typo. It still heals for 15% of the damage done.
Ahh thanks for clarifying. Haven't had a chance to actually get onto the PTR myself yet, was just going by the patch notes and PTR data from MMO and WoR. So yeah I think the nerf is likely because as a tier 1 talent they didn't want it to be as good as it was before (like the previous nerf to Soul Link when they moved it higher in the tree).

 02/25/09, 9:52 AM #265 Dagaves Glass Joe   Macha Human Paladin   Ner'zhul The spec that seems the most appealing to me at this time is a 41/30 imp build. My debatable issues are: Whether Decimate or 4% crit (Dem Tactics) would be better? Picking up Conflag instead of either Decimate or a point in Dem Tactics? I like Meta but I am not anywhere close to convinced it will out perform the Demo/Destro hybrid.
 02/25/09, 10:06 AM #266 ninielin Von Kaiser   Ninielin Undead Warlock   Vol'jin (EU) One little thing to note: On PTR actually master conjuror gives 300% to both stats of the stones; Spellstone = 240 haste 4% to dot Firestone = 196 crit 4% to DD I m not sure its going to stay that way but the talent is actually mandatory for demonology. ^^
 02/25/09, 10:21 AM #267 acceleratum Glass Joe   Putrefaction Undead Warlock   Burning Blade (EU) You just dont get enough points for emberstone/mc even skipping decimation.. The best i coudl manage is this : http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...0&version=9614 Skipping mc and decimation, and only 1 point in backlash, but it gets all the immolation boosts.
02/25/09, 10:23 AM   #268
Dappa
Hardcore Orc

Orc Warlock

Magtheridon (EU)
 Originally Posted by ninielin One little thing to note: On PTR actually master conjuror gives 300% to both stats of the stones; Spellstone = 240 haste 4% to dot Firestone = 196 crit 4% to DD I m not sure its going to stay that way but the talent is actually mandatory for demonology. ^^
I think it's safe to say that the talent is bugged at the moment, giving 300% increase to all stats on the stones.

 Master Conjuror (Tier 5) now increases the combat ratings gained from your conjured Firestone and Spellstone by 150/300%. (Previously 15/30%)
It clearly states that it is the combat rating only that is going to be altered. Unless I'm mistaken, and "combat rating" includes the % gain on DD and dots.

 02/25/09, 10:24 AM #269 Liania Banned   Nitt Blood Elf Warlock   Mazrigos (EU) Currently doing 250~ or so less dps on ptr compared to live. 3500-3550 compared to 3250-3300 on ptr. Thats with Coa/immolate/siphon life glyphs.
02/25/09, 10:43 AM   #270
Aeji
Glass Joe

Mug'thol
 Originally Posted by PSGarak It's not unreasonable, though. All direct, critable damage has its average damage over time reduced by resiliance, as well as its burst. Non-critting DoTs have their damage reduced as well, and by a smaller margin. Arguing that a percent-based reduction is unique is, I think, a pointless line of reasoning. DoTs need to get penalized and get away with a lighter penalty. Not to mention, that's how armor works on all (non-bleed) physical damage.
A couple of different things to address here:

1. All direct, critable damage has its average damage over time reduced by resilience, as well as its burst.

- Dots are affected by resilience to a greater extant than direct dmg. You're wording seems to indicate you think both forms of dmg are roughly reduced by the same amount and that it all sort of averages out over time. I don't understand how that could be true considering the basic fact that normal dot dmg is reduced, while normal direct damage is not. According to GC's recent post on the issue they are both treated the same with regards to crits however.

2. Arguing that a percent-based reduction is unique is, I think, a pointless line of reasoning.

- My intention wasn't to simply state that dots are treated uniquely and that in and of itself was the problem. It was my fault for not being more clear. The implication was that I'm not sure the extra penalty is warranted at this stage of the game. It was absolutely needed in early BC when a Warlock/SP combo could kill a target with 1 round of dots being buffed by both misery and shadow weaving. UA also provided a much harsher penalty then in relation to a player's health max health pool. Neither of these things are true in Wotlk. Also, Affliction PvP dps is balanced around having Fel Armor + Haunt + SEx2 up on a target which is rather difficult in the current environment. Not impossible, but far from easy. Dot dmg can be dispelled and by it's very nature will not kill you quickly, meaning that it gives healers more time to react to it's dmg than burst does. Those built in disadvantages make me question whether or not the extra penalty from resilience on dots is warranted at this point in the game's cycle.

3. Not to mention, that's how armor works on all (non-bleed) physical damage.

- Every dps class/spec that I can think of has a way to bypass how armor reduces physical dmg, including melee - poisons, bleeds, diseases, etc. There is nothing that can bypass/mitigate the flat % dmg reduction resilience has on dots.

To be perfectly clear, I'm not of the opinion that Blizzard must eliminate the flat dmg reduction currently applied to dots. I'm simply saying that it's something that was absolutely needed in the past, but some of the reasons I've mentioned make me question whether it's warranted at this point in the game.

 Elitist Jerks 3.1 Patch notes discussion