3.1 Patch notes discussion - Page 23

duhwhat · 03/06/09, 6:45 PM

Originally Posted by madindehead

The haste proc, will only lead to DoT clipping, if you allow yourself to clip the DoTs.

Right, perhaps I should have added "accidental" before dot clipping.

dusters · 03/06/09, 6:46 PM

Honestly, if you have problems with clipping your dots with eradiction you probably shouldn't be playing an affliction warlock. It really isn't that hard to not clip your dots with it. You notice you get the buff, and wait a little bit longer to cast your dots. Whats all the fuss about?

madindehead · 03/06/09, 7:04 PM

Originally Posted by dusters

Honestly, if you have problems with clipping your dots with eradiction you probably shouldn't be playing an affliction warlock. It really isn't that hard to not clip your dots with it. You notice you get the buff, and wait a little bit longer to cast your dots. Whats all the fuss about?

Agreed.

Illijilli · 03/06/09, 7:16 PM

Originally Posted by duhwhat

You make valid points as to why on a point for point basis haste is better than crit, but since the proc can be anything Blizzard wishes it to be, it is irrelevant whether they budget it as haste or crit. If I gave you a choice of 25 haste rating or 75 crit rating, which would you choose? I would hope 75 crit, as there are no Affliction builds/gear comps currently that value haste rating greater than 3x as crit rating. As an aside, there will be no haste cap as long as Drain Soul remains our execute.

I was only looking at the two buffs that there were. Also note it's not crit rating vs haste rating, the roughly 4% overall spell hasting (napkin math: 6% chance on corruption tick, 20 corruption ticks per 60 second window, 6%*20ticks, roughly 1.2 procs per minute, so roughly 1.2*10seconds=12 seconds uptime per minute, 12s/60s= 20% uptime, 20%uptime * 20% spell casting reduction, roughly 4% overall haste? I probably did something wrong in there but I don't think it is far off) is vs (someone calculated it somewhere) approx. 5% crit overall buff to your shadow bolt crits... the 4% haste felt by ua/immo/haunt/sbolt I think cripples the 5% crit only experienced by your sbolts.

Then again I will admit that Trickykid is right and that all of the number crunching we may do right now is for the most part pointless, as the actual magnitude of the buff is bound to get changed around before live hits.

PSGarak · 03/06/09, 8:04 PM

Going back to haste is, at the least, inconsistent with trying to simplify affliction's rotation. Personally, I far preferred the old new eradication because it was more deliberate in its interaction with shadowbolt.

Does Malediction really need its 3% spell damage increase anymore? Originally that was there as a greedy benefit for specing into improved CoE. Now that improved CoE is baseline, it was just a rather boring 3% spell damage talent. Now it's an interesting talent again, giving DoT crit. Isn't the spell damage increase basically a relic now that it has a cool effect on it again that is purely selfish?

Zaleiria · 03/06/09, 8:14 PM

I wouldn't say the old 3% increase of malediction is completely necessary, but it does prevent the positioning of the talent in the tree from being strange, since the crit chance increase completely depends on a talent below it for effect.

Sqz · 03/06/09, 8:16 PM

About the new patch, people say pandemic is the same as it is on live, but if I understand things right, they're wrong. This version scales with raid debuffs, lets say.. 3% extra crit from retpala / ele shaman, 5% from ISB / Iscorch.. And ofc bigger numbers are always good!

5% UA/Cor and Seed buff, +9% crit on UA/Cor and an (imo) upgraded Eradication. this patch put a big grin on my face. I see it as even better scaling and it seems that the chaotic skyflare diamond becomes superior again for affliction.

So raidbuffed we gained 17% critrate on both corruption and unstable affliction?

About soul siphon, the old effect was 4% per affliction effect, vs 6% now to a maximum of 60% vs 18%. A clear nerf, though it makes it less painful when there's less warlocks around (10mans, guilds with low lock-count or just the members being absent).

We've lost the dmg of Siphon Life, lost damage on Immolate (though afaik it's still better dpct than sbolt) but just look at what we've gained! Also the new glyph of haunt, possible change of functionality for glyph of Siphon Life? Haven't read any info on that one..

So far I'm a happy panda

The rotation was no problem before, it's almost thesame on test till they'd make immo inferior to shadowbolt for affliction. Even then it wouldn't change much. just more fillers, just different keys to press but the same timers to watch.

TiaMaster · 03/06/09, 8:19 PM

Originally Posted by dusters

Honestly, if you have problems with clipping your dots with eradiction you probably shouldn't be playing an affliction warlock. It really isn't that hard to not clip your dots with it. You notice you get the buff, and wait a little bit longer to cast your dots. Whats all the fuss about?

The problem has been explained, and if you are going to ignore it, then at least avoid the elitist attitude we have seen so often about affliction players.

The fact is, random haste procs exacerbate the complicity of an already complicated spec. I should not have to preface this with things like "with most people", or "except for the hardcore". Because no matter who you are, it DOES have this effect, whether you will be better at handling it than a more casual player or not.

So it is fine to point out changes that make things even more complicated without responding with things like this, as it smacks of a "not if you play like ME" post.

For example, at the very least, random procs give another timer to watch, so that you do not accidentally start casting Immolate to early.
For myself, I am with you - I already have the timers and one more isn't a big deal, and neither is remembering to cast later during UA/Immo. This isn't because I'm leet, I've just been doing it a long time.

Suggesting that people who are just now starting with affliction and getting used to it (relative) shouldn't be playing is wrong. They should be advised that this change does indeed make things more complicated. Although this will be helped by the other 3.1 changes.

PSGarak · 03/06/09, 8:23 PM

Originally Posted by Zaleiria

I wouldn't say the old 3% increase of malediction is completely necessary, but it does prevent the positioning of the talent in the tree from being strange, since the crit chance increase completely depends on a talent below it for effect.

Haha, yes, I just thought of that and checked. Malediction proceeds Pandemic in the tree, and it would be downright silly if you could get a talent that only adds crit chance on DoTs without having crittable DoTs. There are a number of similar talents throughout the game, although mostly the primary effect is improving a higher-level skill, not a deeper talent. Speaking of which, someone ought to check that you actually can't crit corruption using only Malediction. It would be an amusing but not entirely unexpected bug.

Sqz · 03/06/09, 8:32 PM

Originally Posted by TiaMaster

The problem has been explained, and if you are going to ignore it, then at least avoid the elitist attitude we have seen so often about affliction players.

The fact is, random haste procs exacerbate the complicity of an already complicated spec. I should not have to preface this with things like "with most people", or "except for the hardcore". Because no matter who you are, it DOES have this effect, whether you will be better at handling it than a more casual player or not.

So it is fine to point out changes that make things even more complicated without responding with things like this, as it smacks of a "not if you play like ME" post.

For example, at the very least, random procs give another timer to watch, so that you do not accidentally start casting Immolate to early.
For myself, I am with you - I already have the timers and one more isn't a big deal, and neither is remembering to cast later during UA/Immo. This isn't because I'm leet, I've just been doing it a long time.

Suggesting that people who are just now starting with affliction and getting used to it (relative) shouldn't be playing is wrong. They should be advised that this change does indeed make things more complicated. Although this will be helped by the other 3.1 changes.

Do aggree on you there, I see virtually no changes on being dependant on 3rd party addons like a dot timer and possible cooldown tracker. They're pretty much must-haves and still are on the test server. It's really no prob for me but for a more casual player it might be.

The only possible solution would either completely braindead the spec with a way to refresh all dots or just have blizzard put dot timers in-game.. Which I would most likely discard and use my current one. (It's called TimerButtons and it's absolutely full of win imo).

Zed · 03/06/09, 8:41 PM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

Does Malediction really need its 3% spell damage increase anymore? Originally that was there as a greedy benefit for specing into improved CoE. Now that improved CoE is baseline, it was just a rather boring 3% spell damage talent. Now it's an interesting talent again, giving DoT crit. Isn't the spell damage increase basically a relic now that it has a cool effect on it again that is purely selfish?

Malediction is a lower tier talent. It has to give a bonus if you choose not to get Pandemic unless they become linked.
To give a practical example, I'm not sure I'd take Pandemic for Affliction PvP (it procs Enrage, Focused Will etc. way too much imo), but I'd probably still take Malediction.

I'm still trying to make up my mind about Eradication - it feels like another version of "Nightfall". It can really add up if you run Corruption on multiple targets (incoming health, instant SB and haste procs) but I feel those situations are too few in raiding.

What I'm most interested in is where they're going with Doomguard/Infernal. Looks like they're trying to make them more accessible but they still can't be relied upon at all, while too powerful to be dismissed. As GC phrased it "Long cooldowns are not fun". For optimum raid performance you would want to rotate your guild warlocks in and out of reserve, which sounds quite ridiculous.
These cooldowns' power also greatly varies between talent specs, ironically being weakest for Demo locks. A possible way to solve these problems would be to rework the abilities similar to DK's Gargoyle: a medium cooldown short duration pet that doesn't dismiss your permanent pet, accessible via a talent deep in the "pet talent tree".

Vux · 03/06/09, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by duhwhat

The reason I favor a random crit proc talent is that random haste procs can occasionally lead to dot clipping, which especially in the case of Immolate is a definite DPS loss. And just to clear up the Immolate issue, simcrafting predicts it as worth casting for Affliction.

Looks like this won't be an issue anymore:

"Immolation and Unstable Affliction are now in the same exclusive category (both damage over time effects cannot be present at the same time by the same caster on a target)."

From the "Official Patch Notes" just updated on mmo-champion.

Wow.

So it seems they just had too hard of a time removing Immolate from the Affliction rotation (since the DPCT was so high), without completely gutting the spell, which would of course make it useless for the other specs.

This seems kind of clunky... UA, a talented Affliction shadow dot, and Immolate, a baseline Destruction fire dot, exclusive? That just sounds odd.

Anyway, looks like the party's over. What seemed like a great deal of buffs may actually lead to a decrease in DPS once we factor in that Immolate's damage wasn't just diminished from Haunt/Shadow Embrace/Spellstones, but removed entirely.

Kazuha · 03/06/09, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by Vux

Looks like this won't be an issue anymore:

"Immolation and Unstable Affliction are now in the same exclusive category (both damage over time effects cannot be present at the same time by the same caster on a target)."

From the "Official Patch Notes" just updated on mmo-champion.

Wow.

So it seems they just had too hard of a time removing Immolate from the Affliction rotation (since the DPCT was so high), without completely gutting the spell, which would of course make it useless for the other specs.

This seems kind of clunky... UA, a talented Affliction shadow dot, and Immolate, a baseline Destruction fire dot, exclusive? That just sounds odd.

Anyway, looks like the party's over. What seemed like a great deal of buffs may actually lead to a decrease in DPS once we factor in that Immolate's damage wasn't just diminished from Haunt/Shadow Embrace/Spellstones, but removed entirely.

Okay, quick breakdown on the impact of all these changes:
Dots full crit - +4%
9% crit on UA and corruption - +2.6%
5% dmg on UA and corruption - +1.74%
No more immolate - -1.75% (assuming immolates are replaced with shadowbolts)
Soul siphon nerf - -4.47%

All of these numbers were gotten just by computing the gains using the simcraft that was made for 3.1 without the current changes and manually calculating the effects. So in particular, the lack of immolate really isn't a hugely big deal, but the huge nerf to soul siphon is. Eradication is probably another percent of a buff, so in total the push is probably around a 3% affliction buff.

Nachtschaduw · 03/07/09, 5:34 AM

Quick question: could anyone calculate the dpct be of immolate versus the dpct of shadow bolt in the >35% and DS >25%, thanks.

Drakh · 03/07/09, 6:05 AM

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Affliction changes = nice start IMO

Very nice change as well :

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

There is no internal cooldown on Eradication.

Cryptex · 03/07/09, 6:14 AM

Looks like this won't be an issue anymore:

"Immolation and Unstable Affliction are now in the same exclusive category (both damage over time effects cannot be present at the same time by the same caster on a target)."

From the "Official Patch Notes" just updated on mmo-champion.

Wow.

So it seems they just had too hard of a time removing Immolate from the Affliction rotation (since the DPCT was so high), without completely gutting the spell, which would of course make it useless for the other specs.

This seems kind of clunky... UA, a talented Affliction shadow dot, and Immolate, a baseline Destruction fire dot, exclusive? That just sounds odd.

Anyway, looks like the party's over. What seemed like a great deal of buffs may actually lead to a decrease in DPS once we factor in that Immolate's damage wasn't just diminished from Haunt/Shadow Embrace/Spellstones, but removed entirely.

I'm pretty sure that this change isn't on the ptr, standing beneath the dummys i got no problem with ua and immo beeing up simultaneous. Am I just getting something wrong here or can somebody confirm that?

Edit: just made a screen to proof

Nozuka · 03/07/09, 6:19 AM

Originally Posted by Kazuha

Okay, quick breakdown on the impact of all these changes:
Dots full crit - +4%
9% crit on UA and corruption - +2.6%
5% dmg on UA and corruption - +1.74%
No more immolate - -1.75% (assuming immolates are replaced with shadowbolts)
Soul siphon nerf - -4.47%

All of these numbers were gotten just by computing the gains using the simcraft that was made for 3.1 without the current changes and manually calculating the effects. So in particular, the lack of immolate really isn't a hugely big deal, but the huge nerf to soul siphon is. Eradication is probably another percent of a buff, so in total the push is probably around a 3% affliction buff.

and there's also the new haunt glyph.

Memnarchon · 03/07/09, 9:10 AM

Noone mention it before, so is it only me or the decimation atm is not working at ptr? (I think its bugged)

Viper007Bond · 03/07/09, 9:17 AM

Originally Posted by Memnarchon

Noone mention it before, so is it only me or the decimation atm is not working at ptr? (I think its bugged)

Confirmed. Drain Soul does 4x damage on the boss dummy, but Decimation will not proc.

marano · 03/07/09, 9:32 AM

Hey guys,

I'm on PTR at the moment and I can confirm that UA and Immo are still castable on the same target.

Decimate doesn't work on dummies.

I keep seeing other player's DoTs on my Dotimer when I target their target. Does anyone else have this bug?

I noticed something in my Aff rotation. It seems that using DS at 25% isn't an increase in dps and in my case even results in a decrease in dps. The thing is, I can't manage to let it tick more than 2-3 times, unless I want SE to drop. If SE drops I'll have to cast a SB prematurely (you have to cast a sb anyway for SM=shadow mastery). This combined with having to keep all dots up is simply a hellish task.

Unless DS refreshes SE and SM and still stacks with all other Warlocks in the raid group, it's too much of a fuss to actually do more damage.

I might be doing something wrong, if so let me know.

Thanks!

Asmodaeus · 03/07/09, 9:43 AM

Originally Posted by marano

Hey guys,
(you have to cast a sb anyway for SM)

What is SM?

Zed · 03/07/09, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Zed

And some bad news: Unstable Affliction appears to be limited to 1 target as of the latest patch.

The change to UA is going to be reverted:

"To be clear: We have decided to leave UA castable on multiple targets. The rank with a single target limit is a bug. It might be fixed in the current PTR build. "

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - 3.1 PTR: UA single target only

Doomguard changes:

Doomguard: Cooldown reduced to 30 minutes, down from 60 minutes. Damage reduced approximately 30%, and health reduced approximately 30%.

On the way to reduce it back to a flavor pet. Cooldown is still to high even if it remains an actual dps increase for some builds. The ability still seems inconsistent with general design.

Smurrf · 03/07/09, 10:38 AM

Re: Immo/UA being castable on the same target still. Remember that what is internally being tested at Blizz is always a few iterations ahead. The change is most likely live on their internal test realms, but not what is public yet. GC and several other blues have made mention of this in the past, as well as the fact that it gets confusing sometimes to remember what's been changed where.

TL/DR: It'll likely show up in a future PTR patch. Don't sweat it yet; but probably a good bet to drop the use of Immo for your benchmark testing.

Nachtschaduw · 03/07/09, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Asmodaeus

What is SM?

I assume he is implying the improved shadow bolt proc called Shadow Mastery.

Memnarchon · 03/07/09, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by marano

Decimate doesn't work on dummies.

I wouldn't post that decimation doesn't work if i wouldn't test it on mobs also... I tested on mobs and doesnt work on mobs either...
Decimation doesnt work anywhere...