3.1 Patch notes discussion - Page 25

Bessa · 02/26/09, 10:49 AM

From what id expect, we need enough haste, to buff the talented SF to leave our hands, before the Incin/SB hits the target. We sould still need to start off the rotation with SB,SB,SF tho
What i expect people are seeing on test, is due to the lag its being made possible, but with reduced lag on live, i dont think it will possible to replicate, unless you can get it down to under 1 second with haste rating, either way, we should gain the buff when the spell leaves our hands as its buffing us, were not debuffing the boss. Should proc from "Besalyn casts Incinerate" and not from "Incinerate hits <insert boss>" ofcourse that change could lead to fake casting incinerate to spam SF but i wouldnt see that as a dps increase.

Warlocomotif · 02/26/09, 10:51 AM

You're all doing it wrong :p

Consider this (You need a healthy bit of haste for it, but if I can do it without raid buffs anyone should be able to do it in a raid).

SB->{SB->SF, Repeat}

-- Some rough stats
SB Cast time: 2s
SF Cast time: 3.19s
SF Cast time + Dec: 1.27s
Range: 30 yards
SB Time in flight: ~1.4s (Guestimate quite frankly, but it's longer than 1.27s)

We start with decimate up
00:00.00 SB Starts casting
00:02.00 SB finishes casting
00:02.00 SF Starts casting
00:03.27 SF Finishes casting Decimate consumed
00:03.27 SB Starts casting
00:03.40 SB Hits target Decimate gained
00:05.27 SB Finishes casting
00:05.27 SF Starts casting
00:06.54 SF Finishes casting Decimate consumed
00:06.54 SB Starts casting
00:06.67 SB Hits target Decimate gained

etc

[edit] looks like a few people suggested this as I was writing this post.

Warlocomotif · 02/26/09, 11:11 AM

Perhaps an interesting question; does it become worth while to drop corruption/immo from the rotation post 35% given a SB SF SB SF SB SF rotation?

Bosmonster · 02/26/09, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Warlocomotif

Perhaps an interesting question; does it become worth while to drop corruption/immo from the rotation post 35% given a SB SF SB SF SB SF rotation?

I'd say it is useful to keep at least CoA running for MC uptime. 10% on the SF is quite a bit and SB's alone won't give you decent uptime. Corruption however, you might drop at that phase.

Not sure about Immolate, would need some DPCT comparisons with SB/SF in the new setup.

Sedona · 02/26/09, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Warlocomotif

Perhaps an interesting question; does it become worth while to drop corruption/immo from the rotation post 35% given a SB SF SB SF SB SF rotation?

As a side note, if you are spec'd 41/30, it would be beneficial to at least keep CoA and Immolate up being that you'll be spamming Incinerate over SB. CoA obviously to keep up MC.

I ran tests trying to keep CoA, Corr, and Immo up. It gets rather hectic. But keep in mind, if you need to refresh Immo or CoA, you can go Incin>Immo>SF or Incin>CoA>SF. I also played with LT'ing as a filler.

dakalro · 02/26/09, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by phulshof

Heh, I just left iSRO for WoW, and in comparison Blizzard is a breath of fresh air.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to explain our view on things to them on the off chance that they may do something with it. I think when this goes live, it won't be as bad as it seems right now, but their reasoning does baffle me a bit at this time. I think most people that actually liked playing affliction didn't have much trouble keeping the rotation up, and as said: removing SL won't make my rotation much easier nor does it remove the need for a mod if I had one before.

Basicly, the rotation isn't easier, you still have the whole ton of durations, just fewer buttons to press, but you still have to cast UA/Immo before they expire, guesstimate Haunt cast to not lose it, cast CoA asap. I never actually found SL as the hard part of affliction, more Haunt and the fact that it only lasts 12s and restarting rotation loses quite a bit of dps. And that Haunt always ended up needing refresh at the worst of times.
And if you do ask most other classes playing this game, they all use dotimers, all of them. Add to that procwatchers, hidden CD watchers, everyone has some bars counting down something. You cannot make the game not depend on external timers unless you add some very good blizz timers/cooldown watchers or just make everyone spam 1 thing.

Blizzard probably started with trying to simplify stuff because people couldn't play affliction, but people that could didn't really ask for dot removal, just less estimating and overlapping timers. And my guess is it still won't make more people get closer to the max poential.
Then somehow we got pegged as high dps. Sure, when I use my 1300-1400 dps Doomguard I do high dps, it's 1k+ more dps than the felhunter. So they tried something to simplify and at the same time, slightly lower our damage.

While I admit I haven't seen conclusive evidence of a big nerf (while my tests in post #180 showed 460 dps difference they were only 18 minutes long each) I haven't seen any evidence that it's closer to no nerf.

• Zakalwe · 02/26/09, 11:54 AM

Post moved to new thread: http://elitistjerks.com/f80/t48311-s...ost_3_1_specs/

Darklawdog · 02/26/09, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

I've got all the new stuff implemented in Simulationcraft - there were many changes, and it's relatively untested, so I can't promise there aren't any bugs. But it's interesting to see the numbers - I slapped together a few quick specs and ran 30k iterations:

Compare to pre-3.1 specs:

My 3.1 specs may not be optimal, so I'll post the profiles below. Feel free to suggest improvements:

For the affliction spec can you try 53/0/18 using the imp and the succubus. I'll go over and try to figure out how to use the simulationcraft software myself.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...ion=9626<br />

Glyphs:

Haunt
CoA
Life tap

rutiene · 02/26/09, 12:34 PM

I also noticed that you dropped Immolate from the Spell Rotation for Affliction. Preliminary math say that Immolate is still higher DPCT than Shadowbolt, so could you run it with that changed as well?

Emolate · 02/26/09, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

I've got all the new stuff implemented in Simulationcraft - there were many changes, and it's relatively untested, so I can't promise there aren't any bugs. But it's interesting to see the numbers - I slapped together a few quick specs and ran 30k iterations:

When will this be in the SVN trunk?

I am updated to r1579, but I don't see sample T8 models included and didn't see an occurrence of 3.1 in the code anywhere.

Edit: I see that the preliminary support was added a few revs ago now, thank you for your sample T8 profiles.

gherkin · 02/26/09, 1:00 PM

Pandemic vs resilience (-25% Crit damage, - 12.5% Dot Damage), assume the dot hits for 1000 base in PVE.

Non-Crit: 1000 - 12.5% = 875
Crit: 1000 + (500 - 25%) = 1375 (875 + 500)

Still crits for full amount, no double dipping. This is how the talent is expected to work, but if the burst talent they keep talking about comes up short expect them to buff dot crits to 200%.

Sedona · 02/26/09, 1:02 PM

I am not too familiar with Simulationcraft so forgive me if I am mistaken on its ins and outs.

I have a few suggestions for your 41/30. Or I would like to see the numbers on the 41/30 that I am running with in the PTR.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...0&version=9626

Also, I don't know if it makes much of a difference on how you set up the actions for its rotation, but I usually save Demonic Empowerment until the end of my rotation to get Demonic Frenzy to 10 stacks. I am also running with a Spellstone over a Firestone. I have a feeling that bug will be fixed sooner or later. And I like haste more.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong with any of these suggestions.

• Zakalwe · 02/26/09, 1:21 PM

Originally Posted by rutiene

I also noticed that you dropped Immolate from the Spell Rotation for Affliction. Preliminary math say that Immolate is still higher DPCT than Shadowbolt, so could you run it with that changed as well?

Very good call. I reran the simulation with immolate (I also changed the spec to include aftermath), and edited my post above. Affliction looks more competitive now.

Grobyc · 02/26/09, 1:33 PM

I'm another person who is not too familiar with the mechanics of Simcraft. However, Zakalwe, regarding the 5/13/53, Shadowburn is not needed as it's really only a PvP talent and can be put into Demonic Power. I also think that point for point, losing a point in Empowered Imp and putting another point into Demonic Power is much more beneficial, especially with the nerf of the crit debuff via Scorch. As for the glyphs, I'm pretty sure that the Immolate glyph will provide a higher increase than Chaos Bolt glyph, especially when Conflag is factored in.

duhwhat · 02/26/09, 1:34 PM

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

Very good call. I reran the simulation with immolate (I also changed the spec to include aftermath), and edited my post above. Affliction looks more competitive now.

I would also add the Immolate glyph in place of CoA, and 1 point in Cataclysm instead of Improved Drain Soul. Which pet are you using?

edit: or 1 point in Demonic Power. You could consider 5/5 Ruin vs. 2/2 Demonic Power.